Family Names/RP - continued from derailment in Dais thread

Aodfionn

So we don't clutter up a perfectly good thread with more arguments over RP, let's discuss it here instead.

What are your thoughts on family RP? Should families be able to seek retribution and/or a namechange for those who have departed from their ranks? Should long-established familial lore be shown deference, or should the RP of the family name remain more fluid?

Discuss, bicker, et cetera. 

Mishgul

They should be able to do what they want. This is a living breathing world unrestricted by mechanics, which makes thigns interesting. Sure there is frustration sometimes when certain people do things that you don't plan for or don't enjoy, but that's the price we pay for freedom.

A couple of people use my family name outside of Mhaldor, even though I explicitly founded the family so I (read: Carmain) could wear a name that exemplified service to Sartan. We had a few people that joined and left Mhaldor but carried the family name, which is illegal according to my family charter, but I can't stop them, and while I am frustrated by it, I'm not going to try and stop them by doing anything that borders along player harassment or begging for a mechanic change.

Seeking retribution is a cool idea, and it's something I swear I'll do to anyone that "dishonours" my family name, but it's one of those empty threats really. I'll retribute by being boring at them, or emote slapping them repeatedly. 

Kondar

So, I'm an Aristata in Eleusis, solely because of the Bloodlining of my mother and father. I don't share the same ideals as most Aristata, but that does not mean I don't want to bring honour to my family name. On that same end, forcing a change in mechanics, or harassing other players because they share a name with you, but not your ideals doesn't make sense to me. As years progress, people will change. People defect from their original cities, and carve new paths in their lives. They may not always think the same thing they did 10 years ago, it doesn't mean they stop being a member of that family. Too many people look at family as more of an organization, instead of what it should be...a family. You may have a "Black Sheep" in your family...you could have a son, and that son could grow up despising everything you believe in...that doesn't make him not your soon, nor should it force him to remove the name he was given from birth. In the sense of RP, it makes sense to "not like" someone that carries your name. It was made clear to me in game that I am not, nor will I ever truly be Aristata. You can dislike it, you can even publicly denounce my as part of your family, that won't change the fact that through the act of bloodlining, I am Aristate.

Mishgul

in the concept of Achaea, clans are organisations, which by extension, makes families organisations. Sharing a surname with someone makes you about as much as part of a family as having "X is my dad." as your motto. If you want to be an Aristata there is nothing wrong with that, but you are Aristata by choice. 

Aodfionn

Upon a bit more thought on this, I'm not a fan of making a hard-coded mechanic to be able to undo or remove surnames. That said, I'm personally of a mind that we benefit more from showing deference and respect to certain player-established lore than we do from ignoring it. It's sort of like wishing that we had zero PK rules while also wishing that everyone was mature enough to handle that kind of environment.

On an OOC level, I sincerely and deeply appreciate the fact that none of those who left the Wintermournes tried to carry it on elsewhere. We work hard to create an engaging, unique kind of environment with how we act as a whole, and so I can totally feel for the frustration that Saeva and others have in seeing names with a lot of lore relating to being literally imbued with the essence of Sartan going around elsewhere. To the folks in that family, it feels like it's cheapening the hard work put in by the people who founded/stuck around.  At the same time, it totally does open up avenues for interesting stuff to try and 'redeem' that name in a foreign land. I've never seen anyone really do much interesting with that, but there's a lot that goes on that I don't see. 

On an IC level, my job is to bring redemption to any who seek it, with the belief that anyone can be saved and cleansed. I hold nothing against Morthif and others who stick to those names, but I still find it kind of weird OOCly.

Kondar

Aodfionn said:

On an OOC level, I sincerely and deeply appreciate the fact that none of those who left the Wintermournes tried to carry it on elsewhere. We work hard to create an engaging, unique kind of environment with how we act as a whole, and so I can totally feel for the frustration that Saeva and others have in seeing names with a lot of lore relating to being literally imbued with the essence of Sartan going around elsewhere. To the folks in that family, it feels like it's cheapening the hard work put in by the people who founded/stuck around.  At the same time, it totally does open up avenues for interesting stuff to try and 'redeem' that name in a foreign land. I've never seen anyone really do much interesting with that, but there's a lot that goes on that I don't see. 

That's a great way to look at it, but Lore is meant to evolve. Just because I don't share the same ideals as Mhaldor, does not mean I don't deserve the name Aristata. Families are meant to grow, and strengthen. Just because I spend my time dedicated to the protection of Nature, does not mean I don't add value to the name, I just don't add value to their ideals.

As for clans, I understand the design of a clan is organizational, but I always hoped that Family clans would be treated differently. Families should -not- be an organization. Of course that's just my belief.

Saeva

I have nothing more to say. The point was made 10 times over in the other thread by numerous people.

Aegoth

Kondar said:

Just because I don't share the same ideals as Mhaldor, does not mean I don't deserve the name Aristata. 

Except it does mean you don't deserve it, because you don't embody what it means to be an Aristata. That's the whole point!

Klendathu

Aegoth said:

Kondar said:

Just because I don't share the same ideals as Mhaldor, does not mean I don't deserve the name Aristata. 

Except it does mean you don't deserve it, because you don't embody what it means to be an Aristata. That's the whole point!

It doesn't mean to him what it means to you.

Kondar

Looking at it from an OOC perspective...my family raised me to be religious, all of my family is religious. As I grew up, I realized that wasn't my thing, I didn't care for religion..so I stopped going to church. Does that mean...because I don't embody the beliefs of my parents, that I am no longer religious that I don't deserve my last name? I get the fantasy world of Achaea, and Real Life really aren't the same, but the principles behind it stand. The Aristata family may have become a family due to the similar beliefs of some people a long time ago...but people evolve, situations change. Not everyone can be forced into the same ideal for the sake of a Surename.

Deladan

I hate you all equally. 

Kondar

Deladan said:

I hate you all equally. 

Hate you too @Deladan

Kayeil

Honestly, I don't believe disowning someone necessarily means they need their last name taken away by force. They're still technically related to you by blood, you've just ceased acknowledging them which is fine and totally your choice. If your name in real life is Jane Doe and your father John Doe has just disowned you for whatever reason, you're still related to this person by blood, and under no obligation to change your name if you don't want to.  So if I disown someone in my Achaean family, I'm not going to give them more power over me by them strutting around still sharing the same last name and me getting angry about it. I'm just not going to care.

In the case of families like the Mhaldorian ones, I think it falls into a grey area where it's run and treated kind of like a House in Mhaldor, but it comes with a last name and is called a family. I don't believe they can get away with griefing someone too much over not changing their last name if they leave Mhaldor without getting into trouble, so now they're left with the option of formally stating that so-and-so is not acknowledged as a legitimate member of the family, or hoping eventually Lord Sartan can do something about it. I mean really, if you're a group seeking advancement and strength, then don't give the individual power to upset you so much. By openly complaining about it I think you've left yourselves open to being mocked more than respected by some people, and I think there are other ways to handle this in a much more Mhaldorian way. I understand why you're upset, but at the moment there's just no real in game mechanic to rely on to police this like titles of Orders and Houses can be.

The ONLY instance where I think last names should be "policed" are last names that Divine past and current allowed or still allow Their Order members to use. Seeing as how this is a privelege offered by successfully finishing certain requirements and being accepted into an Order by a Divine, I think this is the only form of last name that has a legitimate claim to policing who gets to use these by only allowing full Order members to use it, and stripping the last name from the title of those who leave or any who were never a part of the Order and try to use the last name anyways. To adopt the title of a Divine's Order or last name, alive or deceased, is extremely disrespectful and is not something anyone is entitled to without that Divine's specific permission. If the Divine is deceased, then only those who were full members at the time of the Divine's passing should still hold rights to those last names and titles.

Saeva

It's not about blood relations. How many times does it need to be said?

Mishgul

I do not let my own kids wear my surname. If you want to be a Nithilar you have to do an act of great Evil and show ambition and drive for following the Truths and then it is awarded to you. I believe the other Mhaldorian families do a similar thing. Being bloodlined determined your family but not your surname.

Believing that having the right to a surname because your biological parents have it is such a western european/north american concept. I don't have the same surname as my mother. My dad does not have a surname (which always makes signing legal documents awkward).

If you want to bring that concept into Achaea, sure, but it is still your choice to wear your surname.

In many cultures in the real world, names were dynamic titles that were given to you. A symbol of recognition for who you are and your name could change many times in your life. It is frustrating to see that kind of tradition mocked, in much the same way you feel it is bad that you feel that you should have a static name based on who your parents are, which is a very western way of thinking. 

We don't have birth certificates in Achaea though. The only real right you have to recognition from yourself is your first name. If you get flak for your title or any surname, it is all down to you to handle it. 

The flip side of this has been when you grant your title to someone you liked for 30 seconds, and they go and ruin your x amount of time working on making something cool. You can't really play the game for someone else so you are left with the decision of changing how you play the game or living with the consequences.

You can always hope that player 1 or player 2 shows some empathy in these situations but this is the internet and no one posting in these threads (including myself) has shown any indication of caring what all sides of the argument would/should feel about these things or that they care to respect how other the other player plays the game. 

The in game interaction is going to be hostile, and I love drama, so I am fine with it. I play achaea like it is a book with living breathing world, (to the best of my ability), and these kind of situations are infriguing to let them play out. Fight it out in game. Insult each other in game as characters, not players. Argue with each as characters, not players. See what kind of story can develop. 

All this OOC justification and arguing takes away from the exciting IG solutions you could be trying to implement.

Anedhel

Player retention in any organisation (even as flimsy an organisation as a family) is up to the pre-established group to encourage and foster. I still say that, if people don't want to play a surname the way you want them to, you're probably just not making it interesting enough for them. Not to mention, family names don't really matter, for most people they're just an accident of 'who happened to bloodline you?' Getting angry over this really seems like little more than an easy way to find something to make a mountain out of a molehill with.

Melodie

Kondar said:

Aodfionn said:

On an OOC level, I sincerely and deeply appreciate the fact that none of those who left the Wintermournes tried to carry it on elsewhere. We work hard to create an engaging, unique kind of environment with how we act as a whole, and so I can totally feel for the frustration that Saeva and others have in seeing names with a lot of lore relating to being literally imbued with the essence of Sartan going around elsewhere. To the folks in that family, it feels like it's cheapening the hard work put in by the people who founded/stuck around.  At the same time, it totally does open up avenues for interesting stuff to try and 'redeem' that name in a foreign land. I've never seen anyone really do much interesting with that, but there's a lot that goes on that I don't see. 

That's a great way to look at it, but Lore is meant to evolve. Just because I don't share the same ideals as Mhaldor, does not mean I don't deserve the name Aristata. Families are meant to grow, and strengthen. Just because I spend my time dedicated to the protection of Nature, does not mean I don't add value to the name, I just don't add value to their ideals.

As for clans, I understand the design of a clan is organizational, but I always hoped that Family clans would be treated differently. Families should -not- be an organization. Of course that's just my belief.

The bolded is exactly what the Mhaldorian families are, for the most part. They aren't families in what you would consider the traditional OOC sense. There may be some of that among some of the members, but it isn't universal, nor is it meant to be. Melodie is Saeva's actual mother, and Melodie is not apart of any of the Mhaldorian families. Mel and Saeva (and further members of her actual bloodline) carve out the actual "traditional" family roles. The Aristata, Lichlord, and so on are people banded together under a similar banner and belief, all tied into serving Sartan.

I think that's been the ultimate confusion. These aren't "traditional" families, and when people ICly try to treat it as such, it's missing the entire point.

On a different point, I am on the fence on forcing surnames. When Melodie left for Mhaldor, she was ousted by Caleth (the head of the family) from the Le'Murzens. Unfortunately he took it steps further, including sinking the family ship Mel took care of not once, but twice (where I nearly decided to keep it out of spite, but in the end returned it to the family), as well as seeing to me being ousted from a small OOC clan.

Despite the carry-over from OOC to IC feelings, Mel made up with her grandmother, his wife, and still carried the name for a small while until some other happenings. Were she to no longer carry her current surname, I would retain her as nameless, because she simply is not a Le'Murzen. Few of the family still speak to her, and the patriarch considers her trash. Which is fine. I understand Mel is not welcome, not even as a "black sheep", even though she's blood. She keeps her few family members close and compact these days.

If you betray your org (and/or your family and their ideals), you made your bed, and generally, you should be willing to accept you're going to be disliked and unwelcome. If you're going to balk against everything and still carry the name despite what you did, at least make an effort to do something with it. Don't wave it as a nananana boo booo flag. Try to engage people. Try to actually interact with those members you betrayed. Try to show you actually deserve the surname you still wear.

If you want to be different and be acknowledged for it, you have to put in the work, otherwise you just look like a special, snobby snowflake.

Tahquil

I'm not sure with the story of Deladan and... whoever the others were. But I think in Del's case he didn't betray the org. He wore the name before the cult sprung up and claimed it as their own.

Krypton

Seeing all these Mhaldorian surnames leave Mhaldor just reminds me of Andromeda Tonks and Sirius Black, and how they and their bespectacled kid friend triumphed over ultimate Evil.

Deladan

I suppose I should finally speak on this subject. I've been wearing the title Aristata on and off for years, in and outside of Mhaldor. So this isn't really anything recent. Been doing this 10+ years now.  

The Mhaldorians keep claiming that it's strictly Mhaldorian. 

One of the founding Members: 

Prophesy Aristata (female Chaos Lady resembling a Tsol'aa).

She is 433 years old, having been born on the 4th of Lupar, 262 years after the 

fall of the Seleucarian Empire.

She is unranked in Achaea.

She is an extremely credible character.

She is not known for acts of infamy.

She is a Consul in Ashtan.

She is considered to be approximately 50% of your might.

She is a mentor and able to take on proteges.

Her warcry: 'Let's go into the dark together!'

A member of the Aristata council 

Doctor Tekla Rousseau, Aspirant of Galadriel (female Siren).

She is 392 years old, having been born on the 17th of Scarlatan, 303 years after 

the fall of the Seleucarian Empire.

She is unranked in Achaea.

She is an extremely credible character.

She is not known for acts of infamy.

She is a Freewoman in Eleusis.

She is considered to be approximately 95% of your might.

She is a mentor and able to take on proteges.

Her motto: 'Life doesn't have to be miserable just because you are.'

She has taken the hand of Das in marriage.

She has been divorced once.

She bears the arms: Azure, a rose Argent.

See HONOURS DEEDS TEKLA to view her 8 special honours.

then I'm noticing a couple Hashani in there too. and that's just from Clhelp Aristata. 

So while you continue to single out people for not being Mhaldorian, you probably were hoping that people wouldn't point these small things out too. Well I did. Not sorry. 

Kiet

Mishgul said:

I do not let my own kids wear my surname. If you want to be a Nithilar you have to do an act of great Evil and show ambition and drive for following the Truths and then it is awarded to you. I believe the other Mhaldorian families do a similar thing. Being bloodlined determined your family but not your surname.

Believing that having the right to a surname because your biological parents have it is such a western european/north american concept. I don't have the same surname as my mother. My dad does not have a surname (which always makes signing legal documents awkward).

If you want to bring that concept into Achaea, sure, but it is still your choice to wear your surname.

In many cultures in the real world, names were dynamic titles that were given to you. A symbol of recognition for who you are and your name could change many times in your life. It is frustrating to see that kind of tradition mocked, in much the same way you feel it is bad that you feel that you should have a static name based on who your parents are, which is a very western way of thinking. 

We don't have birth certificates in Achaea though. The only real right you have to recognition from yourself is your first name. If you get flak for your title or any surname, it is all down to you to handle it. 

The flip side of this has been when you grant your title to someone you liked for 30 seconds, and they go and ruin your x amount of time working on making something cool. You can't really play the game for someone else so you are left with the decision of changing how you play the game or living with the consequences.

You can always hope that player 1 or player 2 shows some empathy in these situations but this is the internet and no one posting in these threads (including myself) has shown any indication of caring what all sides of the argument would/should feel about these things or that they care to respect how other the other player plays the game. 

The in game interaction is going to be hostile, and I love drama, so I am fine with it. I play achaea like it is a book with living breathing world, (to the best of my ability), and these kind of situations are infriguing to let them play out. Fight it out in game. Insult each other in game as characters, not players. Argue with each as characters, not players. See what kind of story can develop. 

All this OOC justification and arguing takes away from the exciting IG solutions you could be trying to implement.

This is a really good post and a lot more insightful than "well in cheap fantasy novel series A it was like this." Ultimately a lot of these issues come from people having very different understandings of what a surname is, but I agree just handling it in-game, violently if necessary is the best way to do it.

There have always been people who have faked titles/surnames even in RL, there's just opportunity in Achaea to handle it in more interesting ways.

Deladan

The leadership positions are:
The Aristata Council
Diego, Lideron, Malkuth, Aiseiri, Prophesy, Zaldimar,
Gaillardia, Tekla, Ladydeath, Saibel, Istiria, Ravai, Milenka,
Diamondesce, Caitiff, and Saeva

Melodie

@Deladan, I won't speak for the Aristatas on the actual people they keep (you'll notice I've kept my comments general), but the people you're pointing out are dormant. You can't force title changes on dormant people. You, Morthif and others are active players, and thus of course are going to feel the (understandable) pressure. Added to that, I imagine they've contributed in ways to retain those positions for a particular reason. 

Deladan

In my above post. You'll notice I'm using name highlighting, the white names don't belong to any city. Diego is one of the founders. Prophesy as I mentioned earlier is Ashtani, another founder. Diamondesce doesn't have a city, the last one I remember her being in was Shallam, And then Tekla, the Eleusian on the council. 

Out of the founding members of the Aristata 2 out of 5 aren't even Mhaldorian. Then 4 members of the council aren't Mhaldorian. 

Yet, all we've heard from the Mhaldorians is "It's a Mhaldorian Family." The Clhelp states otherwise.

Deladan

@Melodie Oh but you can kick them out of the clan.

Deladan

Melodie said:

@Deladan, I won't speak for the Aristatas on the actual people they keep (you'll notice I've kept my comments general), but the people you're pointing out are dormant. You can't force title changes on dormant people. You, Morthif and others are active players, and thus of course are going to feel the (understandable) pressure. Added to that, I imagine they've contributed in ways to retain those positions for a particular reason. 

It's been stated several times that once you're no longer mhaldorian you're no longer Aristata... using words of others. So that being stated, the others shouldn't even be in the clan at all, since they're no longer Aristata, even if they did found it. 

You can sit here and cry we want recognizition and we want to be strictly "Evil" all you want, but until matters are taken internally, then that's all you're doing is crying out for recognizition instead of trying to actively build an evil family. 

Mishgul

@Deladan, I think your argument is a bit unfair to Prophesy and you should probably stop picking on her, especially since she can't defend herself as a player.

Kiet

I mean, nothing stops someone from naming themselves Sir or house/city titles, either. There's very few things you can force people to do in Achaea beyond making their life harder.

Aerek

And yet, that doesn't happen much, because people have a tendency to respect those organizational titles, and factions generally frown on wearing the trappings of other factions. You wouldn't jump from Mhaldor to Targossas and still try to wear your "Abbadon's Whisper" title, even if you rightly earned it, nor would you join Cyrene after leaving Ashtan but still wear "Ex-Archon of the Bastion" to show off your prior achievements. You can't hard-code restrictions against this, but we absolutely can and do police it through peer pressure and social stigma.

I agree, of course, that families are not identical to organizational titles, but they're the same in that players have the power to legitimize and de-legitimize them contextually.

Kondar said:

That's a great way to look at it, but Lore is meant to evolve. Just because I don't share the same ideals as Mhaldor, does not mean I don't deserve the name Aristata. Families are meant to grow, and strengthen. Just because I spend my time dedicated to the protection of Nature, does not mean I don't add value to the name, I just don't add value to their ideals.

This is a valid argument, and I agree with it to a point, but the counterpoint I'd offer is that we're here roleplaying, and roleplaying is about storytelling, and when you're telling a story, consistency is important. With any IG title, if the people wearing it have nothing in common, then the title effectively loses its meaning. Knighthood comes up a lot in this regard, Skye mentioned the Nerai Tempests in the other thread, and the Mhaldorian "family" names apply. All of these titles carry some pretty specific implications about the characters that wear them, and as people who do not embody those stereotypes start to wear them, the title or surname starts to get watered down, and it's harder to tell a coherent story with/about it.

I already used the Drizzt analogy in the other thread. It's perfectly legitimate to play a 'black sheep', a Knight who cast off his honour, a family member who leaves the ancestral home but keeps the name, etc, but in order for a 'black sheep' to be special, there have to be a lot of white sheep to contrast with. The root issue that I think folks are really fretting about here (family names just being the surface debate) is that a lot of titles, surnames, traditions, and even organizations lose their meaning over time because everyone wants to be the exception, and no one wants to follow the rule.

Trevize

Hm. My thoughts. Official family clans, unrelated to bloodlining.

1) Allow clans to designate themselves families for a fee. (say 250k?)
2) Families behave in most ways like a clan.
3) Families can set a surname.
4) Tenure in the family is determined by join date, visible with a command like CLAN MEMBERS but just name on the left and tenure on the right.
5) Allow members of the family to turn on/off the surname (this is convenience).
6) Has a leader, like clans, but anyone with more tenure can contest the leader, and a dormant leader can be contested by anyone. Contesting takes six IG months and is -not voted on-. The waiting period is so someone more tenured can take control. (e.g. leader goes dormant some kid tries to take over, an elder can push them aside and step up).
7) Families can align themselves to cities. Members of that family can then not join any city other than that one. If they wish to be other than the assign city/rogue, they must leave the family. Alignment is irreversible.
8) Families that retain less than 10 members for a year convert back to a clan with no refund.

Thoughts?

Kondar

Trevize said:

Hm. My thoughts. Official family clans, unrelated to bloodlining.

1) Allow clans to designate themselves families for a fee. (say 250k?)
2) Families behave in most ways like a clan.
3) Families can set a surname.
4) Tenure in the family is determined by join date, visible with a command like CLAN MEMBERS but just name on the left and tenure on the right.
5) Allow members of the family to turn on/off the surname (this is convenience).
6) Has a leader, like clans, but anyone with more tenure can contest the leader, and a dormant leader can be contested by anyone. Contesting takes six IG months and is -not voted on-. The waiting period is so someone more tenured can take control. (e.g. leader goes dormant some kid tries to take over, an elder can push them aside and step up).
7) Families can align themselves to cities. Members of that family can then not join any city other than that one. If they wish to be other than the assign city/rogue, they must leave the family. Alignment is irreversible.
8) Families that retain less than 10 members for a year convert back to a clan with no refund.

Thoughts?

I honestly like this a lot, with the exception of the city restrictions. I think the restrictions should only be set by the family, not forced automatically.

Otherwise, this would add an awesome aspect of family to the game, and I think add some more Lore. New challenges could arise, as you try and turn your family into a Legend in the realms.