Family Names/RP - continued from derailment in Dais thread

Trevize

Kondar said:

Trevize said:

Hm. My thoughts. Official family clans, unrelated to bloodlining.

1) Allow clans to designate themselves families for a fee. (say 250k?)
2) Families behave in most ways like a clan.
3) Families can set a surname.
4) Tenure in the family is determined by join date, visible with a command like CLAN MEMBERS but just name on the left and tenure on the right.
5) Allow members of the family to turn on/off the surname (this is convenience).
6) Has a leader, like clans, but anyone with more tenure can contest the leader, and a dormant leader can be contested by anyone. Contesting takes six IG months and is -not voted on-. The waiting period is so someone more tenured can take control. (e.g. leader goes dormant some kid tries to take over, an elder can push them aside and step up).
7) Families can align themselves to cities. Members of that family can then not join any city other than that one. If they wish to be other than the assign city/rogue, they must leave the family. Alignment is irreversible.
8) Families that retain less than 10 members for a year convert back to a clan with no refund.

Thoughts?

I honestly like this a lot, with the exception of the city restrictions. I think the restrictions should only be set by the family, not forced automatically.

Otherwise, this would add an awesome aspect of family to the game, and I think add some more Lore. New challenges could arise, as you try and turn your family into a Legend in the realms.

The stated problem is that restrictions can't be enforced beyond kicking people out. This gives a mechanical way to limit it - and make it more natural. You must actually make the choice to discard your family (organisation) to join another city.

Two benefits to this. One, it could show on HONOURS as 'is a member of the family: -name-' rather than clan membership, and second the city alignment would allow HELP FAMILIES MHALDOR (and show perhaps the largest families at the top, smallest at the bottom, based on active non-newbie members).

Forgot to add - an individual can only be a member of one family.

Trevize

Oh, and the showing different on honours also provides the 'she may claim the name but she is NOT a part of the Family' RP.

Aodfionn

Oh god, that's be amazing - an honours to delineate the officially affiliated from the black sheep? Yes please.

Sarapis

I can only imagine the tears were we to implement this, as what would immediately happen is that people that other people don't view as "having the right" to form a clan based on a particular name would go right ahead and do so, and then strip that name from others who feel they do "have the right" to have that name.

Trevize

Sarapis said:

I can only imagine the tears were we to implement this, as what would immediately happen is that people that other people don't view as "having the right" to form a clan based on a particular name would go right ahead and do so, and then strip that name from others who feel they do "have the right" to have that name.

The clans should already exist.

If a family 'claimed' a name but had no clan, they're showing a lack of initiative to turn a bloodline into a structured family organisation.

I don't disagree on the tears/drama, but from the sounds of it, the current state creates enough of that already.

Melodie

There might be tears, but it would also give certain (re: well-known) family names an actual importance instead of just a title. If you just want a surname without doing any of the work of being in a family, then just make your own.

It still shouldn't be hard to be in a family though - there are so many Achaeans who can and will just bloodline/adopt/pull in anyone and everyone they remotely like even a little bit. Family RP will not dry up. If anything, this should definitely help it flourish. There may be some tears to begin with as everyone figures things out (for instance, making sure the -proper- people of families are the heads will be a challenge in the beginning because of dormancy issues etc), but once things settled in, I think it'd be fine.

The way the idea lays itself out, you could make it a very traditional or the more strict families Mhaldor has, and I like that sort of freedom. I'm sure not a -ton- of families will go for the alignment option (I know mine won't), but I think those that will (around half a dozen at least) will benefit immensely. 

Sarapis

Melodie said:

There might be tears, but it would also give certain (re: well-known) family names an actual importance instead of just a title. If you just want a surname without doing any of the work of being in a family, then just make your own.

But the only thing required to have a surname is to have it. That's it. There's no work required. 

Once you have a surname, it's yours as far as I'm concerned, and I don't see any justification for letting another player take it away from you once you've removed yourself from their power (ie by leaving any organization that might demand you change it). 

Trevize

Melodie said:

There might be tears, but it would also give certain (re: well-known) family names an actual importance instead of just a title. If you just want a surname without doing any of the work of being in a family, then just make your own.

It still shouldn't be hard to be in a family though - there are so many Achaeans who can and will just bloodline/adopt/pull in anyone and everyone they remotely like even a little bit. Family RP will not dry up. If anything, this should definitely help it flourish. There may be some tears to begin with as everyone figures things out (for instance, making sure the -proper- people of families are the heads will be a challenge in the beginning because of dormancy issues etc), but once things settled in, I think it'd be fine.

The way the idea lays itself out, you could make it a very traditional or the more strict families Mhaldor has, and I like that sort of freedom. I'm sure not a -ton- of families will go for the alignment option (I know mine won't), but I think those that will (around half a dozen at least) will benefit immensely. 

I would like to add to the idea an 'unaligned' option - choose that and your family cannot become aligned in the future (to prevent someone from taking over and 'making' a non-aligned family go aligned).

Tahquil

-Insert a point about OOC cliques getting more power to gang up on people they decide to not like because I don't really explain things well in verbose mode.-

Trevize

Sarapis said:

Melodie said:

There might be tears, but it would also give certain (re: well-known) family names an actual importance instead of just a title. If you just want a surname without doing any of the work of being in a family, then just make your own.

But the only thing required to have a surname is to have it. That's it. There's no work required. 

Once you have a surname, it's yours as far as I'm concerned, and I don't see any justification for letting another player take it away from you once you've removed yourself from their power (ie by leaving any organization that might demand you change it). 

To be clear, I don't foresee my proposal preventing others from wearing the surname. This is entirely separate from blood relation/surnames. The addition of being able to add the surname in the clan is merely a convenience, and I imagine it to be a convenient version of 'suffix <family name>' one can to do oneself.

It does permit validation in the 'she calls herself Moonflair, but the family does not acknowledge her' RP. Not the extent of permissible PK, I might add.

Sarapis

Tahquil said:

-Insert a point about OOC cliques getting more power to gang up on people they decide to not like because I don't really explain things well in verbose mode.-

Is that a genuine risk, you think? I mean, I think the OOC cliques are one of the most damaging things to Achaea, but I'm unsure if this would actually make it worse.

Sarapis

Trevize said:

Sarapis said:

Melodie said:

There might be tears, but it would also give certain (re: well-known) family names an actual importance instead of just a title. If you just want a surname without doing any of the work of being in a family, then just make your own.

But the only thing required to have a surname is to have it. That's it. There's no work required. 

Once you have a surname, it's yours as far as I'm concerned, and I don't see any justification for letting another player take it away from you once you've removed yourself from their power (ie by leaving any organization that might demand you change it). 

To be clear, I don't foresee my proposal preventing others from wearing the surname. This is entirely separate from blood relation/surnames. The addition of being able to add the surname in the clan is merely a convenience, and I imagine it to be a convenient version of 'suffix <family name>' one can to do oneself.

It does permit validation in the 'she calls herself Moonflair, but the family does not acknowledge her' RP. Not the extent of permissible PK, I might add.

Ahh, yes, that would definitely be less objectionable from a controlling-other-players-you-have-no-business-controlling point of view.

Deladan

Tahquil said:

-Insert a point about OOC cliques getting more power to gang up on people they decide to not like because I don't really explain things well in verbose mode.-

I wanna be in a clique...  

Now I has a sad. 

I seriously feel like a loner 90% of the time. Probably for the best. 

Melodie

Sarapis said:

Melodie said:

There might be tears, but it would also give certain (re: well-known) family names an actual importance instead of just a title. If you just want a surname without doing any of the work of being in a family, then just make your own.

But the only thing required to have a surname is to have it. That's it. There's no work required. 

Once you have a surname, it's yours as far as I'm concerned, and I don't see any justification for letting another player take it away from you once you've removed yourself from their power (ie by leaving any organization that might demand you change it). 

At the moment, and for some families, sure. You could change that though. Here's a sampling (definitely not the whole) of our city scroll:

The history of Mhaldor is steeped with the presence of Mhaldorian specific bloodlines and family houses. Unlike the names worn by those of heathen cities, within the City of Evil, there lies a different purpose and meaning to the ones we carry. Our names describe an aspect of the living culture that has breathed life into our streets. With us, the Truths of Evil are celebrated and strengthened. Do remember, however, that the blood of the covenant is always thicker than the water of the womb. Birthright does not determine one's place within Sapience, but choice does.

Families in Mhaldor will be given official Mhaldorian house status based on these conditions:

o Possess a coat of arms, a family keep, a family token/symbol and motto.

o Must possess active members numbering at least 1/4 of the family roster.

o Only Troni-ranked citizens may be eligible to join a Mhaldorian house.

o Members of the family must wear the surname.

o Slaves may not wear a family surname.

Major family house status in Mhaldor is determined by the following criteria:-

 - Has at least two Exsusiai belonging to the family.

 - At least three members who are of Dynamis rank or higher.

 - Must possess a family keep of at least eight rooms.

 - Responsible for yearly house tithes to Mhaldor of 10,000 gold.

Minor family house status in Mhaldor is determined by the following criteria:-

 - Has at least one active Exsusiai belonging to the family.

 - At least two -other- members who are of Troni rank or higher.

 - Must possess a family keep of at least four rooms.

 - Must have pledged fealty to a major house.

 - Yearly tithes of 2,500 gold to the liege house.

 - May only possess eight family members. (*)

Now obviously the above is aimed at Mhaldorian families, but there are already requirements put in place. For other families, you could easily fit in a couple of these things, like a Coat of Arms, maybe a house that is required to be a "home base", number of active members, perhaps some yearly fee or perhaps just a fee to turn it into an "official" family. You could have a book with the Bloodline Registry of registered families, their numbers, what cities they originate from and what cities they've spread to, important founding members etc.

It would be really really easy to blossom this idea into something pretty damn awesome and worthy of making surnames "more than just titles". And those surnames that do crop up as just titles (and they will, and that's just fine!), with no work or anything attached to them, will be seen as such. And if that's what people prefer to do, fine!

But this gives people who want their family to mean more than just a title a way to do so. Family has been a huge thing in Achaea since its inception, and I think formalizing a system would be extremely beneficial for the game as a whole, even if there are some growing pains to begin with. You are already okay with orgs kicking people out for their own reasons - I don't see how this happening in families would be any different, though of course perhaps it would be wise to place some restrictions on how it's done (such as a limited amount of people per so many years, only very ranking members able to do so, etc etc).

Trevize

Sarapis said:

Trevize said:

Sarapis said:

Melodie said:

There might be tears, but it would also give certain (re: well-known) family names an actual importance instead of just a title. If you just want a surname without doing any of the work of being in a family, then just make your own.

But the only thing required to have a surname is to have it. That's it. There's no work required. 

Once you have a surname, it's yours as far as I'm concerned, and I don't see any justification for letting another player take it away from you once you've removed yourself from their power (ie by leaving any organization that might demand you change it). 

To be clear, I don't foresee my proposal preventing others from wearing the surname. This is entirely separate from blood relation/surnames. The addition of being able to add the surname in the clan is merely a convenience, and I imagine it to be a convenient version of 'suffix <family name>' one can to do oneself.

It does permit validation in the 'she calls herself Moonflair, but the family does not acknowledge her' RP. Not the extent of permissible PK, I might add.

Ahh, yes, that would definitely be less objectionable from a controlling-other-players-you-have-no-business-controlling point of view.

Basic design concept is an organisation without true power (like a clan) that provide the mechanics to satisfy more justifiable 'family organisation' roleplay. Key features being 1) the inability to lose the clan through dormancy of a leader, without using democracy or organisation ownership, 2) stress to family tenure - elders have power, and 3) direct and undeniable acknowledgement of organisational ties without organisational ownership.

Trevize

@Sarapis - tagging you because I don't feel like quoting something and you seem to have taken an interest.

I've been doing some thinking, and to pull back on the proposal (somewhat) and take a different turn, an overall clan overhaul seems preferable - though I know that would mean longer before implementation.

Not like high clans, as the admin oversight is honestly something that should be avoided in these as it limits, rather than enabling.

Most of the features above would be usable in many other organisation types. I would hesitantly suggest the 'families' and 'families <city>', differing honours line, and membership requirements before reverting be added as a 'family' option, and the rest be added to a larger clan overhaul, which I believe is on 'the list' if I'm not mistaken.

Design cartels and such would be absolutely lovely.

Tahquil

Sarapis said:

Tahquil said:

-Insert a point about OOC cliques getting more power to gang up on people they decide to not like because I don't really explain things well in verbose mode.-

Is that a genuine risk, you think? I mean, I think the OOC cliques are one of the most damaging things to Achaea, but I'm unsure if this would actually make it worse.

To be honest any implementation that involves groups of people coming together runs the risk of the OOC clique. However, I also recognise that I'm bitter, cynical and play devil's advocate for a few things.

I've been part of skype groups were I've seen house leaders purposely holding novices back because they don't like them, I've seen people organise groups and situation purely to degrade and humilate another player, I've seen them ask the group on skype for any reason to run a person out and then proceed to do so. I've had people stop talking to me and completely cut off ongoing story lines IG just because I didn't agree with them on something OOC.

To be fair, if a system was implemented Achaea wouldn't end in a wave of highschool style inclusion/exclusion drama. But I do think that people may start using it as a way to mark 'the cool kids table' and use this new form of power against people.

Kayeil

If you come from a bunch of bloodlines, this seems messy. I mean, if I dropped Lady Selene's last name, I'd revert back to Vorondil, which is my character's father's last name... but what of my mother's side? By birth she's a LastGoodbye, but that stems from so many other families like Kindfires. What if I were in all those family clans? Do you just force someone to pick one family clan? And what about those who invite family friends or those who are family by marriage? Such clans would be a bit complex with all of the different ways in which you'd flag members as to which ones can use the surname and who can't. There's also the case where some families may have more than one family clan for the same last name (yes these exist). So then how is it determined which one is the "real" one, and gets the titling rights?

Saeva

Make a choice of which family's ethics and goals best suit you and commit to it. If it goes sour, try another. Seems pretty simple to me.

also there is already a cool kids club, it's called TMC. I hear it's a great place.

Sarapis

Kayeil said:

If you come from a bunch of bloodlines, this seems messy. I mean, if I dropped Lady Selene's last name, I'd revert back to Vorondil, which is my character's father's last name... but what of my mother's side? By birth she's a LastGoodbye, but that stems from so many other families like Kindfires. What if I were in all those family clans? Do you just force someone to pick one family clan? And what about those who invite family friends or those who are family by marriage? Such clans would be a bit complex with all of the different ways in which you'd flag members as to which ones can use the surname and who can't. There's also the case where some families may have more than one family clan for the same last name (yes these exist). So then how is it determined which one is the "real" one, and gets the titling rights?

Families as the Mhaldorian people use them have nothing to do with families as most people use the word it seems, and certainly nothing to do with being genetically related. Family is a poor choice of words for them, really. They're organizations where people who join decide to adopt the same surname, and the name 'family' happens to be used for them. Any implementation of 'family clans' would have to have zero to do with actual genetic bloodlines.

Aodfionn

Sarapis said:

 Family is a poor choice of words for them, really. They're organizations where people who join decide to adopt the same surname, and the name 'family' happens to be used for them. Any implementation of 'family clans' would have to have zero to do with actual genetic bloodlines.

95% chance they'd be called houses if that hadn't been slapped on the guilds post-autoclass. 

Sarapis

Saeva said:

also there is already a cool kids club, it's called TMC. I hear it's a great place.

So good I was about five seconds away from summarily deleting it today!

Sarathai

Saeva said:

also there is already a cool kids club, it's called TMC. I hear it's a great place.

I'm clearly not one of the cool kids.  

In any case, one thing this whole topic did inspire me to do was dig deeper into bloodlines and just what family names Sarathai is linked to - came out at Rian, Rihwin and Lucoster, with scattered stuff elsewhere. For quite a while now his surname has just been a modified Rihwin one, though.

Trevize

Sarapis said:

Saeva said:

also there is already a cool kids club, it's called TMC. I hear it's a great place.

So good I was about five seconds away from summarily deleting it today!

Heh, like you deleted the rage channel? (it needed it so badly, such a terrible channel to have)

Saeva

Sarapis said:

Saeva said:

also there is already a cool kids club, it's called TMC. I hear it's a great place.

So good I was about five seconds away from summarily deleting it today!

You so should have. It's a cesspool.

Austere

Saeva said:

Sarapis said:

Saeva said:

also there is already a cool kids club, it's called TMC. I hear it's a great place.

So good I was about five seconds away from summarily deleting it today!

You so should have. It's a cesspool.

TMC has a tendency to get out of hand, but I have also seen it used for very good purposes. It's an excellent ooc way of telling another faction you're not having fun.  Without it, people would have to send tells to raiders, and the assumption that someone already has and the lack of a playerbase to look down on people for competely disregarding others enjoyment would result in a lot more lame raids, I think.  Just my two cents for today.  If you delete it, I won't cry. 

Tahquil

TMC is actually one of the only clans I've been in that I haven't had to deal with 2-most members haven't held prejudices against me resulting in passive aggressive anger bubbling to the surface. I don't think they really know why they are angry and I wish I could fix it, but meh.

TMC just sorta accepts me. I'm not sure what that says about me being I had to dwell in a cesspool to find acceptance.

Aepas

Tahquil said:

TMC is actually one of the only clans I've been in that I haven't had to deal with 2-most members haven't held prejudices against me resulting in passive aggressive anger bubbling to the surface. I don't think they really know why they are angry and I wish I could fix it, but meh.

TMC just sorta accepts me. I'm not sure what that says about me being I had to dwell in a cesspool to find acceptance.

It is okay. You are only a victim.

Skye

The TMC mashup is still pretty nicely mixed when it comes to people across the alignment spectrum so it opens outlets between players. Frankly I have bigger issues with ooc clans that are more homogeneous in their membership because that's where the ooc leadership cliques tend to bubble.

Just to put things into perspective, I really question why people would need multiple ooc outlets for their own IG orgs. Up to a certain point, that sort of practice becomes incredibly toxic because the more opportunity you have to huddle in your insular group and talk shit about anyone who doesn't agree with you, the more self-propagating that us-vs-them mentality becomes.  And all your buddies are the same faction so there isn't really a third party to say 'you know what, you're being assholes, just chill'.

Alrena

Back on topic, I don't see why a normal clan can't be used to do everything that was described. Considering there are easy ways to see who's in the clan, and control who gets to join and stay, it seems to be everything you'd want, minus mechanical enforcements. If Clans can one day own housing, even family estates would be possible. You get your validation of "You're either in the clan, or you're not", and the rest is up to you.