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Family Names/RP - continued from derailment in Dais thread

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  • ShirszaeShirszae Santo DomingoMember Posts: 3,412 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited October 2015
    Aepas said:
    Shirszae said:
    Aepas said:
    Shirszae said:
    You guys harp on it like the forums were IC or something. Also, as an unrelated note, while I am not familiar at all with his or anyone's situation that might bear Aristata or whatever other name you people are making a fuss about, you do have to keep in mind that at some point, someone might have failed to mention to their offspring that the name was not supposed to be inheritable (or even right-out gave them permission to wear it)

    You guys might not approve of that scenario, but it would nonetheless be different from someone who is just trying to be all snowflake-y, no matter how much you people might want to insist on that
    Sometimes people just have to be told they are being wrong.

    I literally just posted this in another thread, but once I RP'd that I was a druid that could shapeshift when I first made aepas
    it just can't happen..
    sometimes you just have to be told what is going on.
    Sorry, but thats is a high personal opinion, and not at all comparable to shapeshifting. You can be a self-satisfied ass, but that doesnt mean you are right
    I can't tell if this just got personal or not, but if it did, let me know so I can start spewing personal insults.
    Some of you have been rather aggressive (and sometimes even straight-out insulting) to people who don't agree with you. It is really quite a bit aggravating (and I think it doesnt really make people to want to comply, either) but my apologies anyway

    And you won't understand the cause of your grief...


    ...But you'll always follow the voices beneath.

    Mycen
  • AepasAepas Member Posts: 1,619 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Shirszae said:
    Aepas said:
    Shirszae said:
    Aepas said:
    Shirszae said:
    You guys harp on it like the forums were IC or something. Also, as an unrelated note, while I am not familiar at all with his or anyone's situation that might bear Aristata or whatever other name you people are making a fuss about, you do have to keep in mind that at some point, someone might have failed to mention to their offspring that the name was not supposed to be inheritable (or even right-out gave them permission to wear it)

    You guys might not approve of that scenario, but it would nonetheless be different from someone who is just trying to be all snowflake-y, no matter how much you people might want to insist on that
    Sometimes people just have to be told they are being wrong.

    I literally just posted this in another thread, but once I RP'd that I was a druid that could shapeshift when I first made aepas
    it just can't happen..
    sometimes you just have to be told what is going on.
    Sorry, but thats is a high personal opinion, and not at all comparable to shapeshifting. You can be a self-satisfied ass, but that doesnt mean you are right
    I can't tell if this just got personal or not, but if it did, let me know so I can start spewing personal insults.
    Some of you have been rather aggressive (and sometimes even straight-out insulting) to people who don't agree with you. It is really quite a bit aggravating (and I think it doesnt really make people to want to comply, either) but my apologies anyway
    sometimes I wonder why you care about opinions that have nothing to do with you
    Replies the scorpion: "It's my nature..."
  • ShirszaeShirszae Santo DomingoMember Posts: 3,412 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Aepas said:
    Shirszae said:
    Aepas said:
    Shirszae said:
    Aepas said:
    Shirszae said:
    You guys harp on it like the forums were IC or something. Also, as an unrelated note, while I am not familiar at all with his or anyone's situation that might bear Aristata or whatever other name you people are making a fuss about, you do have to keep in mind that at some point, someone might have failed to mention to their offspring that the name was not supposed to be inheritable (or even right-out gave them permission to wear it)

    You guys might not approve of that scenario, but it would nonetheless be different from someone who is just trying to be all snowflake-y, no matter how much you people might want to insist on that
    Sometimes people just have to be told they are being wrong.

    I literally just posted this in another thread, but once I RP'd that I was a druid that could shapeshift when I first made aepas
    it just can't happen..
    sometimes you just have to be told what is going on.
    Sorry, but thats is a high personal opinion, and not at all comparable to shapeshifting. You can be a self-satisfied ass, but that doesnt mean you are right
    I can't tell if this just got personal or not, but if it did, let me know so I can start spewing personal insults.
    Some of you have been rather aggressive (and sometimes even straight-out insulting) to people who don't agree with you. It is really quite a bit aggravating (and I think it doesnt really make people to want to comply, either) but my apologies anyway
    sometimes I wonder why you care about opinions that have nothing to do with you
    Just the way I am wired. Also because I think the subject is pretty interesting

    And you won't understand the cause of your grief...


    ...But you'll always follow the voices beneath.

    Linton
  • AnedhelAnedhel Member Posts: 2,367 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    If this weren't a mess of a thread, I'd worry about derailing it, but I think the point is that 'shapeshifting rp' is completely different from someone getting upset about someone else wearing a title.

    Honestly, bloodlines are more an accident of who happens to take you to Delos one day than anything else. You get the surname you get, because you happened to hang out with people who were also bloodlined by someone with that surname, once upon a time. There's no mechanical limitation for it, unlike in metamorphosis.

    I do think that dismissing someone out of hand simply because 'they're not playing right' (which I think is Shirszae's underlying point, possibly? One of them, anyways) is never a good way to approach Achaea, which is less about rules than it is about working with others to create a fictional world together.
    ShirszaeTahquilJeslynAereidhna
  • SaevaSaeva Member Posts: 1,944 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Anedhel said:

    Honestly, bloodlines are more an accident of who happens to take you to Delos one day than anything else.
    What!? Um. Alright, if that's how you treat your actual bloodline... very interesting.


  • AnedhelAnedhel Member Posts: 2,367 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited October 2015
    I don't. But at the risk of sounding a little arrogant, I take more care with my character's roleplay than most people would. I suspect, for a vast majority of people, they either:

    A. Found someone nice they like to hang out with, and want to find a reason to keep hanging out, so they ask or agree to be bloodlined or,

    B. Have friends OOC they want to alt with, or maybe have been introduced to Achaea by, and so, to give a new character an excuse to hang out with an established one, they agree to bloodline beforehand.

    If you take a look at my bloodline/honours, you'll see Anedhel shares his name with only one other person in the whole of Sapience, precisely because I want the right to be uppity about who wears it; I don't just force that on other people, I develop what I want my character's family to be like, and begin from square one, instead of one day randomly deciding 'this is the way the world ought to be' and getting pissy at everyone who doesn't agree.

    But, it's pretty cool to just assume, too.
    ShirszaeSiduriAereidhna
  • AepasAepas Member Posts: 1,619 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I'd bet 10 bucks I could get 10 kids by sundown.
    Watch the Xa'sai family grow!
    *quality of children may vary
    Replies the scorpion: "It's my nature..."
    KasyaMathonwy
  • TibithaTibitha Member Posts: 742 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited October 2015
    Anedhel said:
    I do think that dismissing someone out of hand simply because 'they're not playing right' (which I think is Shirszae's underlying point, possibly? One of them, anyways) is never a good way to approach Achaea, which is less about rules than it is about working with others to create a fictional world together.
    Aye, but I believe this is Saeva's point as well. Some people have taken what a family/surname means and built a whole fictional world around it. They used what they have and and built upon it. It's not like they suddenly yesterday appeared and said, "Okay, we're commandeering this surname, ya'll need to gtfo."

    The general opinion in this thread by people not involved in that kind of setup seems to be "No, mechanically it works this way, this is how I use it, therefore whatever you're trying to do with it is wrong."

    So according to the playerbase, nothing in this game bears any kind of validity unless it's mechanically implemented?

    But then conversely, when asked for mechanical implementation, those same people claim that we can make it work with what we have and it doesn't need to be mechanically implemented... :confused: 

    And the reason this is coming up OOC is because there is no IC way to address it that hasn't already been addressed, other than kill them repeatedly which is literally mechanically against the rules of the game.

    As a note: While Wintermourne works similar, in that you have to earn the right to wear the name, regardless of blood, we have not had any of the above mentioned issues, so I'm not personally invested in whatever the rogue Lichlords and Aristatas do.
    MelodieSaeva
  • TahquilTahquil Member Posts: 4,515 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited October 2015
    I'm just going to take this part 

    " It's not like they suddenly yesterday appeared and said, "Okay, we're commandeering this surname, ya'll need to gtfo.""

    They.. kinda did. While they have been working on their current incarnation of the Aristata name being passed down by deeds for perhaps the last century, The Aristata name has existed for centuries before that as a surname passed down through heritage and bloodlines. As a rather optimistic estimate for Saeva and the current Aristata style : they have probably only been about for 1/4 of the Aristata at most, leaving 3/4 or more of the existence of the Aristata as a surname that was passed down via blood.

    So yes, they sorta did Commandeer the the existing surname with maybe three centuries (I'm not sure when the quoted founders actually founded the surname) of previous history of being passed down through blood and started telling people to GTFO.

    If it had been a new surname, or maybe a more recent one there may have not have been so much trouble. But yes, it was pre-existingly passed through bloodlines and that's where its all gone to hell.
    JeslynSiduriShirszaeAnedhel
  • SiduriSiduri Member Posts: 1,617 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Just my two cents. Most surnames you see inherited today in the real world make no sense because at some point, people have started passing on clan/guild/professional title to their children. Sometimes because government forced it, sometimes to precise the lineage from that other cousin next door with the same name.

    I'm a Gagnon, but trust me, my ancestors have not bred any guard-hounds for centuries. We've been bakers for generations, but at some point we decided to stick to one and pass it down. The same is true of all the Smiths, or the Blacks etc. you englishmen have.

    This happened in Ancient Rome, actually forcing the creation of new name categories because people kept passing down their personal ones down. It happened to some extent in the Muslim world if I remember, too, though it is not the standard yet.

    It's part of the organic evolution of a lineage. You guys can have your Aristata RP all you want, but sadly, someone passed it on or hung onto it because he considered it earned, and it's really okay. Your job to treat them like unrecognized pariahs, instead of doing mock praising.

    image
    ShirszaeAnedhel
  • SaevaSaeva Member Posts: 1,944 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited October 2015
    Well since people muddle and ruin things irl, we should just do it in a game where we have an ounce more of control. 


    I think it's pretty interesting that anyone who is actually a part of or close to any of these sort of 'family' members doesn't seem to have any trouble grasping the concept being expressed but those not tied to any seem really indignant and effected lol.


    MathonwyAegoth
  • SiduriSiduri Member Posts: 1,617 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Oh, I'm not indigned, effected, and I understand the concept perfectly. I'm just thinking beyond it, too. :)

    image
  • SaevaSaeva Member Posts: 1,944 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Siduri said:
    Oh, I'm not indigned, effected, and I understand the concept perfectly. I'm just thinking beyond it, too. :)
    Wasn't really actually even directed at you


  • SiduriSiduri Member Posts: 1,617 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Saeva said:
    Siduri said:
    Oh, I'm not indigned, effected, and I understand the concept perfectly. I'm just thinking beyond it, too. :)
    Wasn't really actually even directed at you
    Good then! Because I was a little confused for a moment :)

    image
  • AegothAegoth Member Posts: 2,922 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Tahquil said:
    I'm just going to take this part 

    " It's not like they suddenly yesterday appeared and said, "Okay, we're commandeering this surname, ya'll need to gtfo.""

    They.. kinda did. While they have been working on their current incarnation of the Aristata name being passed down by deeds for perhaps the last century, The Aristata name has existed for centuries before that as a surname passed down through heritage and bloodlines. As a rather optimistic estimate for Saeva and the current Aristata style : they have probably only been about for 1/4 of the Aristata at most, leaving 3/4 or more of the existence of the Aristata as a surname that was passed down via blood.

    So yes, they sorta did Commandeer the the existing surname with maybe three centuries (I'm not sure when the quoted founders actually founded the surname) of previous history of being passed down through blood and started telling people to GTFO.

    If it had been a new surname, or maybe a more recent one there may have not have been so much trouble. But yes, it was pre-existingly passed through bloodlines and that's where its all gone to hell.
    Weird, i thought i posted this... but anyway: I'm fairly certain that Aristata has never been a blood relation house, and has always been a merit-based surname that one must earn in Mhaldor. 
  • RuthRuth SingaporeMember Posts: 2,700 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Along with Dracrotalus and Defaron bloodlines.. one of which has already died out. :(

    "Mummy, I'm hungry, but there's no one to eat! :C"

     

  • AnedhelAnedhel Member Posts: 2,367 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    So... what I'm hearing is that some people decided this is a different kind of family than all other families and are upset others have no interest in being told they're playing wrong? 

    If anything, that right there is what sounds snowflake-y to me. But maybe I'm missing something obvious. 

    I'd just like to say, one last time, that families are something you should control by being interesting and engaging, not petty, sour, and hyper-critical Oocly, I suspect. 
  • TahquilTahquil Member Posts: 4,515 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    @Ruth, @Aegoth, @Saeva
    Ah, sorry for my mistake. I only saw/heard people getting the Aristata name via bloodline when I was in Mhaldor those 300 years ago. It is possible that they fulfilled some criteria as well as being bloodlined so I acknowledge that possibility.
  • AnedhelAnedhel Member Posts: 2,367 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited October 2015
    @Aerek that's more or less what I'm driving at. Knighthood is a good example, and, especially now that Houses are no longer a thing, it's up to the people who want to be/remain knights to make it interesting and worthwhile to other people to play into the value they perceive to be associated with that title. If you expect it, and basically just whine about it when other people wear 'Sir' without (in your eyes) earning it, then you're pretty likely to get a negative reaction, aren't you?

    ETA: Dead horse is dead, but, really, while it may sound like I'm being very critical, I remain hopeful that people'll make families something worthwhile and valuable, in Achaea, not something to have very silly fights over in a purely OOC setting.
  • MelodieMelodie Port Saint Lucie, FloridaMember Posts: 5,148 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Anedhel said:
    @Aerek that's more or less what I'm driving at. Knighthood is a good example, and, especially now that Houses are no longer a thing, it's up to the people who want to be/remain knights to make it interesting and worthwhile to other people to play into the value they perceive to be associated with that title. If you expect it, and basically just whine about it when other people wear 'Sir' without (in your eyes) earning it, then you're pretty likely to get a negative reaction, aren't you?

    ETA: Dead horse is dead, but, really, while it may sound like I'm being very critical, I remain hopeful that people'll make families something worthwhile and valuable, in Achaea, not something to have very silly fights over in a purely OOC setting.
    I'm sorry you feel families aren't worthwhile and valuable, but I would have to certainly disagree from my near ten years of playing, both in being apart of one and then having my own. I find it one of the very few pieces of roleplay I can always reliably return to and enjoy immensely, even when so many other things change.

    It is why I feel it is worth defending families who do work hard, in general, through blood or through a series of challenges/choices, in an OOC setting. I'm not fond of wasting my time for something I don't believe is worthwhile.
    And I love too                                                                          Be still, my indelible friend
    That love soon might end                                                         You are unbreaking
    And be known in its aching                                                      Though quaking
    Shown in this shaking                                                             Though crazy
    Lately of my wasteland, baby                                                 That's just wasteland, baby
  • AnedhelAnedhel Member Posts: 2,367 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited October 2015
    Hoo, boy, that's really not my point at all.

    ETA: I certainly take Anedhel's own family very, very seriously, and I spend my time in-game with family more than with any other group by a very, very large margin, for the record. But I don't ever force others to subject to my vision of what family is 'supposed' to be- not even Anedhel's own family, which is really what I've been trying to convey for a few days now, to no avail (particularly only to get angry about it OOC and not change things IC when people disagree with what I think is the way things should be).
  • AerekAerek East Tennessee, USAMember Posts: 1,818 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    You're setting up a false dichotomy there. Working to make something meaningful and being annoyed when someone co-opts your efforts is not mutually exclusive. That's like saying you shouldn't be Excommunicating bad Priests, you should just be working to make Targossas more appealing.
    -- Grounded in but one perspective, what we perceive is an exaggeration of the truth.
  • AnedhelAnedhel Member Posts: 2,367 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited October 2015
    Edit: Nvm. It's been a few days of this, and I suppose people'll think what they think.
  • TahquilTahquil Member Posts: 4,515 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited October 2015
    There is definite, admin supported, regulations for what does and does not constitute a 'bad priest' which is realm-wide known and accepted.
    AnedhelShirszae
  • AerekAerek East Tennessee, USAMember Posts: 1,818 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited October 2015
    That refutes the exaggerated, allegorical example I used to emphasize a point, but not the point, itself. Yes, we all need to strive to make our institutions engaging and appealing, but yes, we're also allowed to be annoyed when someone co-opts an institution we care about, especially if we feel that institution is devalued as a result and we don't have much we can do about it.

    Again, that's not an accusation against any of the wayward Aristatas. Whether they have a "right" to the name is a valid debate that the Aristatas, as a whole, get to discuss and decide.
    -- Grounded in but one perspective, what we perceive is an exaggeration of the truth.
  • TahquilTahquil Member Posts: 4,515 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Oh, sorry. I thought it was obvious I was refuting the validity of your comparison. If a bad priest situation rises of course noone is going to tell Targossas 'why don't you be more appealing', they have the ability to just kick people to the curb with excommunicate.

    I think that the Knight comparison is better. It encapsulates the impotence of the situation, being annoyed but unable to do anything about it. It's like yelling at another player they can't possibly call themselves a knight because they didn't go through the same institute/program as you did.
    AnedhelJhaeli
  • LintonLinton Member Posts: 59 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Maybe what he(Anedhel) was trying to say is, instead of spending your mental energy on the negative things or on the people you do not like, channel it instead to the positive things and the people you do like. One can do both, but if strong feelings are there, everything(including the positive things) touched on will be coloured by the negative energy. Just a guess.
    JeslynShirszae
  • IlessiaIlessia Member Posts: 34
    Mishgul said:
    in the concept of Achaea, clans are organisations, which by extension, makes families organisations. Sharing a surname with someone makes you about as much as part of a family as having "X is my dad." as your motto. If you want to be an Aristata there is nothing wrong with that, but you are Aristata by choice. 
    The concept of Achaea is a game. There are rules that govern, no matter how well they are respected, that we act In Character while practicing the concept of this game. 

    This is even a thread in the Roleplaying Section of the forum.

    Now that we've arrived at the conclusion that we're meant to be in-role, one tends to be expected to drop hard understandings of mechanics. However, for the same reason that you already literally cannot be removed from a bloodline, we should respect them.

    The point though....is this. People have great debates about the qualities of 'RP', because one group sees passively being in role as the barest minimum  (using say, using class abilities, being there at all) as being enough. The other side of the spectrum enjoys long form emoting and challenging themselves to adhere to simple roleplay rules that have been well established long before us, ie ;Metagaming, But whether you put in the bare minimum or go out of your way to be 'an RP snob' one thing is always the same:

    The IC world is meant to be treated as reality to a character and we fill in all the rules of reality based on the way we know our own to be.

    You can choose to believe that in the world of Achaea, families are actually formed as organizations and have nothing but a telepathic organizational channel in common, but if this was so the point of them being families would be entirely moot. 

    Your family name is a construct, technically irrevocable, whether in the real world or in Achaea's 'real world'. (read: In Character). Therefore, the above example of that Player being Aristata by choice is true. It has absolutely, 110% nothing to do with that Character. The reason I'm pointing this out is because addressing it to the player is exactly pointless. The subject being discussed is Roleplay. 

    Now, you spoke about the price of freedom in another post and this is the main takeaway that I see being important here. As Achaeans we have a healthy respect for the amazing level of involvement in the perpetual development of the MUD that is afforded to us as players. So much so that we go through all this theorycrafting about the mechanics, Classlead is a huge deal, etc. 

    Talking about tenure in a Family, mechanics to leave it, determining legitimacy, etc, is removing that freedom that the permanency of it is achieving. For those of us RP snobs out there that want to see things simulated as closely as they should be, the permanency is the most important part. 

    tl;dr

    Nothing about families is leavable beside participation, whether in the real world or Achaea's virtual one. The only concept that makes any sense to debate about is that one should be bootable from the Clan. The Clan is the main source of communication. End of story. You can't extract the blood from their veins too. Please, please stop preaching the gospel of metagame. 
    Siduri
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