What would you multiclass?

Atomus

** Be warned that if a Priest strays too far from the path of good, they can

be excommunicated and lose the ability to use Devotion. Thus, this class

requires roleplaying and may not be for everyone.

If you take away the ability to excommunicate, it dilutes the pool of (faction X's) roleplay for that class.  It would be a shitty thing to do to allow whoever to do whatever they want based on the 'it's not fair!!!!' argument

Morthif

Yeah, don't take excom away. Deacon of Celestia is such an interesting position for RP fun.

Trevize

Let's be honest, without excom we'd see 'evil' priests, 'good' apostates, and so on because dozens of people would go 'oh I've got an ORIGINAL idea! no one's ever done THIS before!'

Aerek

This will quickly become a strawman argument, but there's merit on both sides of the Excomm issue. No, Excommunication has never been "abused"; there's never been an Archprelate or Deacon that's just tossed it out because he didn't like someone. (Though I actually have seen Anathema handed out with no or little interaction. People argue that's okay because Anathema can be reversed, but it can be very hard to get it reversed once it's happened) At the same time, "straying too far from Good" is a highly-subjective red line, and the players (including the gods) that control Excomm aren't really the ones you would call "unbiased".

Playing a Cyrenian Devo and leading the Cyrenian Devo clan for about 7 years meant I dealt with a lot of Excomms. A lot of those were warranted because of lolalts or people doing legitimately anti-Good things, and I never defended those people, because I believe in Good's ability to regulate itself. But there have been several Excomms over the years that I feel were pretty unwarranted (not including my own), and when that happens, the victim has virtually no rights and no recourse. It usually begins with some small mistake on behalf of the rogue, something definitely not Excomm-worthy, but then one of the fanatical Good zealots comes to ream you out for that small mistake, and that results in the moment of truth: either you sit silent and let this uncompromising zealot completely steamroll you ("Yes sir, no sir, thank you sir, may I have another?"), or you try to have some fun by actually interacting/debating with them. The former is not fun at all, and the latter is a recipe for disaster, because the moment you push back, you're "going against Good", and in my experience, that almost always results in Excomm/Anathema. It might not be immediate, you could walk that tightrope for a while, but from that point forward your actions are under the microscope. People will be checking in on you, people will be debating with you, and you will get zero slack for future slip-ups or self-assertions, so eventually, you'll get the button pressed.

So while it's true that you can't be Excommed "without a reason", that's kinda a false dichotomy, because once people are paying attention to you as a rogue factional, you will give them a reason, or they will find one if they want to. Playing a rogue factional is like trying to be the Grey Man in boot camp. You can only "win" by flying under the radar for as long as you can, because once the drill sergeant notices you, you're not going to win that exchange.

Mishgul

I think that is fine for the sake of organisational integrity. I am willing to sacrifice the fun of the few for the interest of the many and keep the situation as simple as possible. Once you start making exceptions the road gets slippery and complex.

Kiet

Aerek said:

This will quickly become a strawman argument, but there's merit on both sides of the Excomm issue. No, Excommunication has never been "abused"; there's never been an Archprelate or Deacon that's just tossed it out because he didn't like someone. (Though I actually have seen Anathema handed out with no or little interaction. People argue that's okay because Anathema can be reversed, but it can be very hard to get it reversed once it's happened) At the same time, "straying too far from Good" is a highly-subjective red line, and the players (including the gods) that control Excomm aren't really the ones you would call "unbiased".

Playing a Cyrenian Devo and leading the Cyrenian Devo clan for about 7 years meant I dealt with a lot of Excomms. A lot of those were warranted because of lolalts or people doing legitimately anti-Good things, and I never defended those people, because I believe in Good's ability to regulate itself. But there have been several Excomms over the years that I feel were pretty unwarranted (not including my own), and when that happens, the victim has virtually no rights and no recourse. It usually begins with some small mistake on behalf of the rogue, something definitely not Excomm-worthy, but then one of the fanatical Good zealots comes to ream you out for that small mistake, and that results in the moment of truth: either you sit silent and let this uncompromising zealot completely steamroll you ("Yes sir, no sir, thank you sir, may I have another?"), or you try to have some fun by actually interacting/debating with them. The former is not fun at all, and the latter is a recipe for disaster, because the moment you push back, you're "going against Good", and in my experience, that almost always results in Excomm/Anathema. It might not be immediate, you could walk that tightrope for a while, but from that point forward your actions are under the microscope. People will be checking in on you, people will be debating with you, and you will get zero slack for future slip-ups or self-assertions, so eventually, you'll get the button pressed.

So while it's true that you can't be Excommed "without a reason", that's kinda a false dichotomy, because once people are paying attention to you as a rogue factional, you will give them a reason, or they will find one if they want to. Playing a rogue factional is like trying to be the Grey Man in boot camp. You can only "win" by flying under the radar for as long as you can, because once the drill sergeant notices you, you're not going to win that exchange.

If you don't have fun being obedient to authority, don't pick a class whose entire identity is based around strict adherence to a higher power (either in the form of the people in charge of each position, or the faction behind them as a whole)? Your argument about  how unfun it is also goes to show that pretty much every excommunication got a chance to apologize for their transgressions. If the class is that important to you, surely you can just be quiet and meek for a few minutes out of the dozens or hundreds of hours you'll surely spend playing it.

Even then, if toeing the line is too stressful, you can just join the faction's home land. No one's forcing anyone to be a rogue priest.

Xinna

Eh. Just pretend the factional classes of the factions you don't want to play in don't exist/aren't an option. That's pretty much what everyone else does.

I'd love to play sylvan or priest, but they aren't options for me. You don't have to worry about excommunication, just don't bother with them. There are plenty of neutral classes.

Aerek

That was pretty much my point. The reality of the game is that you have to be in the aligned factions to play those aligned classes, else you're looking at an eternal balancing act that I've never seen anyone pull off indefinitely. I don't think that's necessarily bad, I was just countering the opinion that Excomm/Anathema was nothing to worry about unless you "deserved it".

Trevize

I've always thought that I'd love a generic 'cleric' class.

I know it's probably not immediately feasible, but perhaps a class that changes messages (not skills!) based on the city you're in. Vague non-interesting messages cityless, chaosy ones for Ashtan, Priest-y ones for Targossas, Apostate-y ones for Mhaldor, Darkness for Hashan, Nature-y for Eleusis, and uhm, Cyrene.... gets.... blue ones?

Eld

Trevize said:

I've always thought that I'd love a generic 'cleric' class.

I know it's probably not immediately feasible, but perhaps a class that changes messages (not skills!) based on the city you're in. Vague non-interesting messages cityless, chaosy ones for Ashtan, Priest-y ones for Targossas, Apostate-y ones for Mhaldor, Darkness for Hashan, Nature-y for Eleusis, and uhm, Cyrene.... gets.... slurred faux-Scottish ones?

Melodie

In another mud I played, your priesty powers depended on the god you worshipped. 

Would pay some mad, mad cash if that (or similar) was a reality here. Insert Fry meme and everything!

Ashelynne

I'm definitely not saying excomm and all that gets overly abused. Having played every IRE game I find that Achaea's playerbase is by far the most mature overall. I was more noting that the people who have certain powers are human, and not immune to bias. That much is obvious with how person A is treated leaving the city, and how person B is treated for leaving the city.

Anyway! What @Melodie said is way more along the lines of the point I was desperately attempting to make, but completely forgot to make since I was posting 99.9% asleep. (Don't do that at home, kids.) I get that Priest class has always been tied to the "Good" guys, but really if you take a harder look at their skills some things make you wonder. I mean... a "holy" rite to summon demons that attack your enemies? Uh... okay. Yeah, Catholics summoning demons totally comes to mind as an every day aside for how to handle the unbeliever! (And I totally think of Targ as the Achaean Catholics, right down to the call for prayer and all.) Priest as a class to me is less about following a very specific God, and more about devoutly following A God. Devoutly having faith in SOMETHING, not just one thing. I could totally get behind a priest losing their devotion if say, they weren't part of a Divine Order. Having the skill go dormant or something during that time, or only having very limited skills. Would that take a complete overhaul? Yep. But it'd still be awesome!

Also, is it terrible I'm considering taking Runie or something just for bashing? Serpent bashing isn't horrible, but it's not great, either. Definitely more squishy than I like

Kiet

Christianity in general has never actually been a good analogue for shallam/the church and I doubt it is for targossas either. In fact, people trying to compare them was a big part of why shallam was so ineffective back when I was active.

Trey

Kiet said:

Christianity in general has never actually been a good analogue for shallam/the church and I doubt it is for targossas either. In fact, people trying to compare them was a big part of why shallam was so ineffective back when I was active.

Man I don't know what's more disorienting, having you back or the fact that I've seen zero troll out of you. Good to see you regardless, though!

Dairon

Also, is it terrible I'm considering taking Runie or something just for bashing? Serpent bashing isn't horrible, but it's not great, either. Definitely more squishy than I like

Do not doubt the serpent bashing. Ever. I went with 15 dex and 14 con (level two belt and bracelet) to help with the squish.

Sarathai

Ashelynne said:

(And I totally think of Targ as the Achaean Catholics, right down to the call for prayer and all.)

I'd probably go with the priests of R'hllor in A Song of Ice and Fire, actually. Magical powers, some demon summoning, out to convert the world to their god(s) of fire, and so on.

Aodfionn

Ashelynne said:

Multi class would black be a lot more awesome if the only constraints were the hard coded ones. The fact that there are players who can rape you of class skills sucks.

That aside, would love druid but bleh Eleusis. I'm just not a forest council sort of player. Ah well. Guess no multi for me yet. Maybe shaman at some point.

Because you and others keep bringing up increasingly absurd things about it...

1. RP game = mildly enforced RP. If you want the particular benefits of playing an RP-aligned class, cool! RP within the constraints of that faction. If you can't abide by that, pick one of the many other classes.

2. No clue how hard it is to get anathematized; it's extremely rare for excommunication to happen. If you don't include the number of Cyrenian devotionists who got excommed because they ignored Deucora's deadline to make a switch, there's been maybe five people in over a year now who have done it, and all went willfully out of their way to make it happen. Ask @Kakotas, Daeir and I both had absolutely every reason in the world to excom him and still didn't. 

3. There is an absurd amount of oversight involved in this. Believe me or don't, but the two players who can do this are put in the position to be able to do it by an admin; by design, they're supposed to be people who can be trusted to not be insane assholes. Tecton too, if I recall correctly, has been pretty clear about how poorly it would go and how quickly it would be reversed if someone did revoke your class skills for absolutely no reason.

4. You can say it sucks all you want, but that's coming from the perspective of someone who wants the benefits of factional Classes without having to participate in factional RP. From the perspective of people in factions, it seems kind of silly that rogues/whathaveyou will moan about the inability to get the class abilities, when the whole point of factional classes is to give them something that uniquely fits in with their factional RP. Chaos has scholarly chaos-wizards, Evil has necro-knights and necro-priests, et cetera. 

5. Edit: Also, calling bullshit here. You didn't "absolutely know" you would get excom'd - that's nonsense, and entirely inaccurate. Rogues who can adhere to the insanely minimal Diaspora requirements get to keep their Devo, whether Aod likes them or not. Paging @Valeo.

tl;dr - 95% of people who complain about the mechanics of excom have had zero personal experience with the subject.

Ashelynne

@Aodfionn I kept a lot of my comments pretty on the level. You want to get uppity, be my guest. I've played IRE for a helluva long time and have seen a lot of powers like this get abused. I didn't say they did this time, but I have plenty of experience over the years seeing it actually happen. And yeah, figuring how much of a dick Aod turned into before Ashe even left the city, saying I knew it would happen really isn't all that outside the lines.

I'm well within my rights to say that I dislike something or wish it weren't a viable mechanic of the game, as I don't feel that it really does anyone any favors. And if you want to make it personal, okay, let's do that. You're damn right I would love to have Priest class without having to deal with some of the assholes that are in Targ. I wager that's why there were so many Priests in Cyrene before the class got yoinked away from them. I'm well aware that every city has people who can be obnoxious or difficult to get along with, but not every city has a much loved class that many have expressed a want to have, despite it not being a viable option. So I suppose for me it was weighing whether I wanted the class, or to deal with people like you. That doesn't make priest any less of an amazing class.

Trevize

Ashelynne said:

I mean... a "holy" rite to summon demons that attack your enemies?

Off topic a touch but just going to throw this out there, there's a lot more to demons/infernal realms than Mhaldor/Sartan/Evil in Achaea. A lot of it is hinted to, some outright said but not easy to find, and a little out in the open. Look around IG and you might be surprised!

Ashelynne

Trevize said:

Ashelynne said:

I mean... a "holy" rite to summon demons that attack your enemies?

Off topic a touch but just going to throw this out there, there's a lot more to demons/infernal realms than Mhaldor/Sartan/Evil in Achaea. A lot of it is hinted to, some outright said but not easy to find, and a little out in the open. Look around IG and you might be surprised!

Demons and Good just don't typically go hand-in-hand. One would easily find it a little odd and out of place in a holy rite.

Trevize

Ashelynne said:

Trevize said:

Ashelynne said:

I mean... a "holy" rite to summon demons that attack your enemies?

Off topic a touch but just going to throw this out there, there's a lot more to demons/infernal realms than Mhaldor/Sartan/Evil in Achaea. A lot of it is hinted to, some outright said but not easy to find, and a little out in the open. Look around IG and you might be surprised!

Demons and Good just don't typically go hand-in-hand. One would easily find it a little odd and out of place in a holy rite.

Don't make the mistake of drawing parallels based on the terms used - Good, Light, Angels, Devotion... may lead one to think Judaic based religions, but this isn't too close.

Aodfionn

None taken personally man, just making sure the relevant facts are made clear. 

Trevize said:

Don't make the mistake of drawing parallels based on the terms used - Good, Light, Angels, Devotion... may lead one to think Judaic based religions, but this isn't too close.

Imagine how different the game would be now if someone had put this in HELP CLASS PRIEST and HELP CLASS PALADIN way back when.

Isaeah

Aodfionn said:

Ashelynne said:

Multi class would black be a lot more awesome if the only constraints were the hard coded ones. The fact that there are players who can rape you of class skills sucks.

That aside, would love druid but bleh Eleusis. I'm just not a forest council sort of player. Ah well. Guess no multi for me yet. Maybe shaman at some point.

Because you and others keep bringing up increasingly absurd things about it...

1. RP game = mildly enforced RP. If you want the particular benefits of playing an RP-aligned class, cool! RP within the constraints of that faction. If you can't abide by that, pick one of the many other classes.

2. No clue how hard it is to get anathematized; it's extremely rare for excommunication to happen. If you don't include the number of Cyrenian devotionists who got excommed because they ignored Deucora's deadline to make a switch, there's been maybe five people in over a year now who have done it, and all went willfully out of their way to make it happen. Ask @Kakotas, Daeir and I both had absolutely every reason in the world to excom him and still didn't. 

3. There is an absurd amount of oversight involved in this. Believe me or don't, but the two players who can do this are put in the position to be able to do it by an admin; by design, they're supposed to be people who can be trusted to not be insane assholes. Tecton too, if I recall correctly, has been pretty clear about how poorly it would go and how quickly it would be reversed if someone did revoke your class skills for absolutely no reason.

4. You can say it sucks all you want, but that's coming from the perspective of someone who wants the benefits of factional Classes without having to participate in factional RP. From the perspective of people in factions, it seems kind of silly that rogues/whathaveyou will moan about the inability to get the class abilities, when the whole point of factional classes is to give them something that uniquely fits in with their factional RP. Chaos has scholarly chaos-wizards, Evil has necro-knights and necro-priests, et cetera. 

5. Edit: Also, calling bullshit here. You didn't "absolutely know" you would get excom'd - that's nonsense, and entirely inaccurate. Rogues who can adhere to the insanely minimal Diaspora requirements get to keep their Devo, whether Aod likes them or not. Paging @Valeo.

tl;dr - 95% of people who complain about the mechanics of excom have had zero personal experience with the subject.

Insofar, I have seen nothing but maturity out of the modern-day Achaea. It has actually surprised me, given my experience with IRE over the  years. I remember an IRE where cliques controlled every factional power and if you angered said clique in any way, they would find a way both IC'ly and OOC'ly to destroy your character. Thankfully, Achaea has proven to be anything but that and that is why I have stuck around despite the ups and downs of my character. 

That said, factional RP should be encouraged and, in truth, the nature of ex-com and anathema, as abilities, does invite PLENTY of roleplay, enforcement of roleplay, and consequences to roleplay. But, being in the hands of players (even admin-appointed players), still leaves a sense of unnerving in the same sense that weapons of mass destruction are tightly controlled and heavily-monitored. It still lies within the power of an individual to turn the key. 

I have always, ALWAYS, disliked knowing that someone had the ability to turn off something I paid for. I disliked it the first time I played Achaea over a decade ago, and I dislike it now. I have argued against it in every IRE game (be it ex-comm/anathema or forest enemy status). The reason I, in particular, dislike it is because there is that moment of OOC dilemma: Do I want my character doing this knowing that a skill I paid for may be taken from me? Loss is the nature of roleplay, but loss in IRE goes beyond the immaterial. 

Will it change? Not likely. Do I wish it would? Yes - I would prefer it was an admin ability only to disconnect someone. Admins aren't immune to bias, but I hope would be even more prone to being objective than the players they feel are objective on the simple basis that Divine are usually considered above the weaknesses of mortals. Might mean more people end up getting ex-commed/anathemised (is that even a word?), but it would be a God closing a door, not another mortal. 

On the final note of point five - from an IC perspective, both @Ashelynne and Isaeah were under the very firm belief, due to their limited experience with @Aodfionn and their singular and joined interactions, that he would excommunicate him. These conjectures were made with only the understanding of how Devotion worked from a few Cyrenians and the fact that they were, in their own perspectives, assured that given how they were welcomed, turning their back on Good would have been met with just-as enthusiastic disdain. 

Back on the topic of Multiclass - When cityless Houses (Merchants/CIJ) were made to allow every class, there was an addendum stating that, for factional classes, you would have to be in the city that the faction belongs (Mhaldor for Apostate, Targossas for Priest, Ashtan for Occultist). For your second class, if you were grandfathered into one of those houses with a class like Sylvan, would it mean I would need to join Eleusis to gain Druid/Sentinel, or would I be able to pick up forestal classes since I already am one? 

Trevize

Isaeah said:

I have always, ALWAYS, disliked knowing that someone had the ability to turn off something I paid for. I disliked it the first time I played Achaea over a decade ago, and I dislike it now. I have argued against it in every IRE game (be it ex-comm/anathema or forest enemy status). The reason I, in particular, dislike it is because there is that moment of OOC dilemma: Do I want my character doing this knowing that a skill I paid for may be taken from me? Loss is the nature of roleplay, but loss in IRE goes beyond the immaterial.

If the class didn't come with a huge warning label, I might feel differently.

Ignoring whether or not you want it to be this way, they don't hide it.

Trevize

Aodfionn said:

None taken personally man, just making sure the relevant facts are made clear. 

Trevize said:

Don't make the mistake of drawing parallels based on the terms used - Good, Light, Angels, Devotion... may lead one to think Judaic based religions, but this isn't too close.

Imagine how different the game would be now if someone had put this in HELP CLASS PRIEST and HELP CLASS PALADIN way back when.

The problem is, that's how it was treated by most of the people 'following' it for a long time. Also, it's the nature of things for the familiar to be popular, even if it's just a label you can identify with, content entirely excepted. It's only natural for it to be used in such a manner.

Jeslyn

Everytime the word priest gets thrown out into the endless void, I want to cover my ears and say "Lalalala" because I know exactly how this conversation is going to end up. But in defense of Aodfionn, the player behind him isn't actively seeking to destroy people's fun. He's an actually pretty cool dude. However, he does play a character that is a fanatic, who is secretively a softie, and then turns into a raging lunatic (like hulk) when someone pisses him off (Half of Diaspora).

I think I played a Good Cyrenian turned rogue priest just fine, but I realized that my character was too much of a social butterfly to continue on the path of being a loner. So I had to rewrite the path. Jeslyn ended up manipulating Aodfionn into letting her do what she wanted as a rogue priest in order to search for a new path. She knew she had a lot of leverage on him due to their previous good relationship and went on a huge guilt trip. While she was secretly searching for a new path, under the pretense of just "wanting to gain more knowledge", she got herself a house in Hashan, befriended darkwalkers, visited their temple, frequented Lord Vastar's temple, joined their "study group", had frequent visits with Mhaldorians, etc. This was all done without being excommed. It was like this for two months, and then I went on a break to think over my options for a city.

Conflict is fun. I enjoy playing it out, because it gives you a ton of cool (sometimes ragey) things to talk about later on. It's a game, and if you can play it to your advantage it is even better. If not, take a break and come back (or not). 

Tahquil

Even the most stable person can go bat-shit given the right stimulus IG or RL.

Tesha

You are the only person who has the power to make your character lose his or her factional abilities. There are very clear guidelines for how to play Priest or a Paladin, and the only way your character can lose devotion is if you, their player, consciously decide to drive your character in that direction. The Deacon actually has very little power. It is probably the position with the most oversight in the entire game. The only way your character can lose devotion is if you literally force the Deacon to excommunicate your character by repeatedly breaking the rules. 

Interestingly enough, the process of getting excommunicated isn't very different from the process of getting shrubbed. The only thing that changes is which rules you have to break and the severity of your punishment. No character can force excommunication or shrubbery onto your character, that's something you receive as a consequence of your actions. As a result, if it happens to you and you lose your investment, you honestly can't blame anyone other than yourself. 

If you want to play the role of a factional character renouncing his or her faith, it would probably be better to do so as a neutral class.

Isaeah

Tesha said:

You are the only person who has the power to make your character lose his or her factional abilities. There are very clear guidelines for how to play Priest or a Paladin, and the only way your character can lose devotion is if you, their player, consciously decide to drive your character in that direction. The Deacon actually has very little power. It is probably the position with the most oversight in the entire game. The only way your character can lose devotion is if you literally force the Deacon to excommunicate your character by repeatedly breaking the rules. 

Interestingly enough, the process of getting excommunicated isn't very different from the process of getting shrubbed. The only thing that changes is which rules you have to break and the severity of your punishment. No character can force excommunication or shrubbery onto your character, that's something you receive as a consequence of your actions. As a result, if it happens to you and you lose your investment, you honestly can't blame anyone other than yourself. 

If you want to play the role of a factional character renouncing his or her faith, it would probably be better to do so as a neutral class.

The bolded part was part of my point in my post. I, the player, would make an OOC decision to change the IC direction of my character to avoid losing an investment. While the argument stands that my character's response is entirely under the player's control, at the same time, many of us understand that our characters take on a life of our own and betraying that life is almost worst than losing an investment. 

If only hindsight was 20/20 - would have moved directly to something like Alchemist/Shaman right out the gate. But then, part of the character concept involved Bloodsworn, so it was doomed from the start. 

Ashelynne

Isaeah said:

Tesha said:

You are the only person who has the power to make your character lose his or her factional abilities. There are very clear guidelines for how to play Priest or a Paladin, and the only way your character can lose devotion is if you, their player, consciously decide to drive your character in that direction. The Deacon actually has very little power. It is probably the position with the most oversight in the entire game. The only way your character can lose devotion is if you literally force the Deacon to excommunicate your character by repeatedly breaking the rules. 

Interestingly enough, the process of getting excommunicated isn't very different from the process of getting shrubbed. The only thing that changes is which rules you have to break and the severity of your punishment. No character can force excommunication or shrubbery onto your character, that's something you receive as a consequence of your actions. As a result, if it happens to you and you lose your investment, you honestly can't blame anyone other than yourself. 

If you want to play the role of a factional character renouncing his or her faith, it would probably be better to do so as a neutral class.

The bolded part was part of my point in my post. I, the player, would make an OOC decision to change the IC direction of my character to avoid losing an investment. While the argument stands that my character's response is entirely under the player's control, at the same time, many of us understand that our characters take on a life of our own and betraying that life is almost worst than losing an investment. 

If only hindsight was 20/20 - would have moved directly to something like Alchemist/Shaman right out the gate. But then, part of the character concept involved Bloodsworn, so it was doomed from the start. 

Wait what? You mean people are supposed to arr pee in this game? Oh snap... so much for just being a troll on the interwebs and being me in the guise of an IC name!