A Brand New Ashtan

Ula

Ayami said:

But at that point you're just saying you know what Babel wants more than he himself does.

I don't care what babel wants? I think you are a little out of your league given that you haven't talked to me, and i dont want to talk about theology on the forums, because that is what i enjoy doing when im actually in game. at any rate, as i i have said the nihilists, the people who have met babel, who are more mythologically and philosophically inclined, who I speak to, tend think my view is peculiar but valid. so again, if you actually are interested in understanding why I could think I actually shouldn't have to leave Ashtan, and that my views aren't heresy, you can find me in-game sometime. Otherwise, by all means continue to throw wrenches at a machine in the dark.

Jinsun

Oh I'll tolerate it because I'm patient, but I don't really think it's valid. (For note, I love Grom but he's not a nihilist)

Ula

grom is only one person, i've spoken with. again, I wasn't referring to you.
edit: i do see how you thought i meant grom though. i am well aware hes not a nihilist, we are in the same order

Ayami

I'm not attacking you, nor am I interested in debating theology on the forums, either. I'm just stating that it's unsurprising it'd be badly received, in-game. Your view is outright contradicting what Babel himself has taught his order.

There's a difference between not agreeing with Babel and then saying his own ideology is anti-Babelian. One is simply an opinion, the other is directly implying he and his order are wrong about their own ideology.

Ula

 well thats fine, if someone is going to explain that to my character, you are missing the point. whether or not its valid is not salient, beyond the fact that it is split, which should be evidence that I am not completely off my rocker. further, the chaos court and babel are not the same thing. and lastly, you don't actually know what my opinion is, so what are you even talking about?

Ayami

You literally just posted your opinion (or, more accurately, the opinion your character publicly preaches), textually, and I am explaining why that might get you flak in game.

Ula

and im saying, my complaint is not about getting or not getting flak. its about the complete dismissal of conversation. the specifics are not relevent to theidea, that since the ren Occultists have been acting like know-it-all jerks, even when before many of them were grounded enough to at least engage in a discussion. If someone actually engaged me in conversation, instead of just assuming im trying to convince them of my own view, or dissuade them from theirs. instead of assuming they are correct because of the illusion of authority. And again, I don't mean you jinsun. you are the person who disagrees with me, but still conversed.

Achimrst

Ayami said:

You literally just posted your opinion (or, more accurately, the opinion your character publicly preaches), textually, and I am explaining why that might get you flak in game.

Can you even play Achaea without flak?

Ayami

People, either real or characters in-game, generally do not have infinite time to spend debating their views. If you want people to debate you, you must make it interesting for them. "Babel is wrong about Babel" is unlikely to interest most Occultists, who have been dealing with similar arguments for hundreds of years in-game. With the new state of affairs, publicly humoring arguments is a lot less necessary for characters who would view their position as secured now.

Trevize

Ula said:

and im saying, my complaint is not about getting or not getting flak. its about the complete dismissal of conversation. the specifics are not relevent to theidea, that since the ren Occultists have been acting like know-it-all jerks, even when before many of them were grounded enough to at least engage in a discussion. If someone actually engaged me in conversation, instead of just assuming im trying to convince them of my own view, or dissuade them from theirs. instead of assuming they are correct because of the illusion of authority. And again, I don't mean you jinsun. you are the person who disagrees with me, but still conversed.

I am not surprised.

If someone who never met Ourania tried to tell Trevize that he was wrong about her, he would likely ignore them, especially if they discussed things as you have here.

If I'm wrong about your concept or way of discussing this with them, ignore me. But your previous comments lead me to think otherwise.

Ula

thats a copout and  the refuge of an idiot with a superiority complex. 

Ayami

The entire concept of the Occultists guild and house was based on a superiority complex, justified or not. Playing characters with a flaw is a good thing.

Ula

"babel is wrong about babel' is not something i have said, is an innacurate paraphrasing. but seriously, good job arbitrarily deciding which parts of what has been said, to read. if you are reading what ive said as babel is wrong about babel, then that is wrong. i dont have any issue with babel. this thread is about ashtan, and i have been talking abotu occultists being dicks since the ren. how you would react, to your imagined idea of what those conversations were about, is so utterly meaningless. What you think you've gathered about the view of the world ula has, is incorrect. 
what is so hard to understand, that i am not complaining about my ideas being rejected, i am complaining about attitudes of people who are doing the rejecting. by no means does that mean everyone who has rejected the idea falls into these complaints, nor does it mean that those who haven't do not. 

Aerek

If you think you know more about Chaos and Babel's intentions than Babel does, I don't think your detractors are the ones with a superiority complex.

Trevize

Ula said:

"babel is wrong about babel' is not something i have said, is an innacurate paraphrasing. but seriously, good job arbitrarily deciding which parts of what has been said, to read. if you are reading what ive said as babel is wrong about babel, then that is wrong....

Ula said:
yes, well i have mostly been argueing with nihilists that destruction of creation is anti babelian...

Maybe I'm reading this wrong.

Ula

yes you are.

Ula

Aerek said:

If you think you know more about Chaos and Babel's intentions than Babel does, I don't think your detractors are the ones with a superiority complex.

what is the basis of this assumption? where have I said or done anything remotely suggestive of this? Oh wait, I haven't and you are jumping on a bandwagon. Wow. this forum can be a disaster.

Trevize

Ula said:

yes you are.

What is the basis of this assumption? Where have I said or done anything remotely suggestive of this? Oh wait...

(I had to!)

Jacen

At 26 years old, its hardly surprising or condemning that you're being dismissed instead of debated with. Reading this thread, I'm not even convinced you aren't a troll trying to stir up trouble in Ashtan (more capitalization would help that impression, though). 

Ula

well i've been playing achaea since about 2003, but regardless, i think i've proven myself in that sense, in the sense that im not a troll, by being pretty active in the city and crap. i get the capitalization piece, but its a habit i've grown to not care about, so that probably won't ever change. I can understand if someone doesn't want to get into a discussion, doesnt have the time, or it just isnt their bag. thats fine, ulas best friend is basically mute, and we hunt for hours in silence, and occasionally she laments hunting as a serpent. i dont begrudge people their playstyles. 
i also have not tried to represent or express her theology here, i've used the most throw away sentences that could still be construed as true, when i had to, because my complaint isn't about that. people who are looking at my complaint on the level of well, what did she say? i just dont care about their opinion, that is a certain kind of cruelty i have no interest in. my problem is, groups of people who before the ren were great to talk to, in regards to what ive mentioned above, who at least seemed interested in my thoughts and the discussion, in a reciprocal way, who welcomed the conversation and didn't seem dismiss it before, seem to have no interest in the conversation anymore, and instead of just say, steering the conversation away, or going to do something else, or even telling me they aren't interested, they tell me i should get out before i even hearing what i have to say. they are saying basically, get on board with -US- or get out of ashtan.

thanks to other people, @Jinsun included, i was able to determine that there was still a place, but it would probably lonely.

Tahquil

Hey! Ashtan is now Choasy now! 

I think this thread has covered that and thusly run its course.

Aodfionn

Tahquil said:

Hey! Ashtan is now Choasy now! 

I think this thread has covered that and thusly run its course.

Kay, Aussie. 

Silvarien

Aodfionn said:

Tahquil said:

Hey! Ashtan is now Choasy now! 

I think this thread has covered that and thusly run its course.

Kay, Aussie. 

@Aodfionn : I am now convinced that @Tahquil owns the boomerang artefact.

Tael

Tahquil said:

Hey! Ashtan is now Choasy now! 

I think this thread has covered that and thusly run its course.

While the last two pages have been a headache to even read, there are few things more annoying in a forum than someone posting to a thread to tell other people to stop posting to the thread.

If you don't think there's anything more to say in a thread, just stop clicking on it. Because while you think there's nothing more to say, I can think of a lot of other things people might want to discuss here that I would be interested in reading.

Tahquil

Sorry for trying to quell some misdirected angst and misunderstandings. I guess you know, have at it. Indulge in those frustrations, negative feelings and keep twisting words and growing more and more angry at other parties.

Obligatory : WHY CAN'T WE JUST GET ALONG AND NOT LOSE SIGHT OF ORIGIN.

Ula

i think theres still stuff to talk about, definitely tired of going over my piece though, someone else shift the topic. lol

Jinsun

A slight shift in topic. I think it's very difficult to balance being an abrasive/harsh new direction with wanting to be inclusive without either forcing too many out, or pandering to too many. I'm trying to help people and learn a balance, but there's some that obviously need to go, and others that I'd like to guide into it. One thing that always bugged me about some hardcore RPers is that, if their character is mean or bitchy, then it is relentlessly so in every situation. It's hard, I think, knowing when to pull back the reins without sacrificing the genuineness of the character. Jinsun is cold and pretty snobby, but it's almost impossible to retain anyone's interest in your activities if you're constantly offputting.  I think it's just something that a lot of people will have to adjust to in Ashtan. Also, if you have to say, "My character is just really mean/bitchy." to justify obviously overkill responses,  it is probably going to go too far, and is detrimental to your character in the long run.

Ayami

There's also the issue that a lot of people confusing being just unpleasant and socially incompetent with being 'bitchy-chic.' Lovable bitchy characters are never socially incompetent, they manage to be charming despite being arrogant or vain.

Tael

I think there's certainly room for characters that aren't lovable.

Not every bitchy character needs to be charming.

Some characters can just be legitimately unpleasant or incompetent. I can think of a few people who have done that really well over the years too.

The real problem I think is when people play unpleasant or socially incompetent characters without considering OOCly that they're doing so. If you want to play an unlikeable character, you need to keep in the back of your head that the game still has to be fun for people. And there are definitely players who are bitchy and mean and then try to cover for themselves when called out by suggesting they're just roleplaying a mean character, which is not okay.

There's nothing wrong with playing Umbridge, so long as you remember that everyone is supposed to hate Umbridge. Part of that means being OOCly graceful in defeat - you're electing to play a character that exists in large part to provide catharsis when overcome.

Vansittart

Lorielan said:

It might be worth noting that Ashtan as the Seat of Chaos in concert with the Chaos Lords has a very different, interim goal to Babel's stance via Nihilism. While neither contradict or oppose, Ashtan is not officially the Seat of Nihilism but an outpost of the Chaos Court, allied with and pushing those views/aims.

/knowledge, yo.

That's a really interesting point - I've never really gotten into the weeds of Chaos as a philosophy but it sounds like there's interesting scope there for complexifying the position - particularly if Babel comes back, and finds Dameron as Overseer.  Is Dameron going to take orders from Babel?  I have no idea, but it's fun to think about.

Also, fyi, applauding your work but it's going to take a while before "Knowledge, yo" beats out "No" as your slogan.