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A Brand New Ashtan

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  • JinsunJinsun TN, USAMember Posts: 2,908 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Ula said:
    Ayami said:
    The Occultists encouraged dissenting theories even within the house, but there's a difference between different theories within a framework and just having a completely out-there view. I'm not sure which you're at since we've never interacted ICly, but keep in mind the line between those two camps isn't always clear. There is a set, defined  goal for the faction of Chaos as is, and you can't really argue against the god that has lore reasons to know better than any mortal.

    Essentially, arguing about details is usually seen as healthy debate, but trying to go against Babel is not going to be treated particularly kindly. You can't really exist in the Chaos faction unless you line up at least somewhat with the literal god in charge of it. Some of your wording makes it seem like you think the nihilists have no authority on the subject, but IC-wise they definitely do.
    yes, well i have mostly been argueing with nihilists that destruction of creation is anti babelian. the people who do listen to me, shout out to @Grom, don't seem to think i am out there. 
    Oh that view is so contrarian you're not likely to be successful. Keep in mind some of the people you argued with actually met Babel.
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    Ayami
  • UlaUla Member Posts: 71 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited September 2015
    Jinsun said:
    Ula said:
    Ayami said:
    The Occultists encouraged dissenting theories even within the house, but there's a difference between different theories within a framework and just having a completely out-there view. I'm not sure which you're at since we've never interacted ICly, but keep in mind the line between those two camps isn't always clear. There is a set, defined  goal for the faction of Chaos as is, and you can't really argue against the god that has lore reasons to know better than any mortal.

    Essentially, arguing about details is usually seen as healthy debate, but trying to go against Babel is not going to be treated particularly kindly. You can't really exist in the Chaos faction unless you line up at least somewhat with the literal god in charge of it. Some of your wording makes it seem like you think the nihilists have no authority on the subject, but IC-wise they definitely do.
    yes, well i have mostly been argueing with nihilists that destruction of creation is anti babelian. the people who do listen to me, shout out to @Grom, don't seem to think i am out there. 
    Oh that view is so contrarian you're not likely to be successful. Keep in mind some of the people you argued with actually met Babel.
    there is no success or failure. meaning, im not trying to convince anyone. my aim is not to win people to my side of a conversation, but to get out of my conversation partner(s) the most illuminating information on their experience possible.
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  • AyamiAyami Member Posts: 79 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    But at that point you're just saying you know what Babel wants more than he himself does.
    Tael
  • UlaUla Member Posts: 71 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Ayami said:
    But at that point you're just saying you know what Babel wants more than he himself does.
    I don't care what babel wants? I think you are a little out of your league given that you haven't talked to me, and i dont want to talk about theology on the forums, because that is what i enjoy doing when im actually in game. at any rate, as i i have said the nihilists, the people who have met babel, who are more mythologically and philosophically inclined, who I speak to, tend think my view is peculiar but valid. so again, if you actually are interested in understanding why I could think I actually shouldn't have to leave Ashtan, and that my views aren't heresy, you can find me in-game sometime. Otherwise, by all means continue to throw wrenches at a machine in the dark.
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  • JinsunJinsun TN, USAMember Posts: 2,908 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Oh I'll tolerate it because I'm patient, but I don't really think it's valid. (For note, I love Grom but he's not a nihilist)
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    TaelAziik
  • UlaUla Member Posts: 71 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited September 2015
    grom is only one person, i've spoken with. again, I wasn't referring to you.
    edit: i do see how you thought i meant grom though. i am well aware hes not a nihilist, we are in the same order :tongue:
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  • AyamiAyami Member Posts: 79 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    I'm not attacking you, nor am I interested in debating theology on the forums, either. I'm just stating that it's unsurprising it'd be badly received, in-game. Your view is outright contradicting what Babel himself has taught his order.

    There's a difference between not agreeing with Babel and then saying his own ideology is anti-Babelian. One is simply an opinion, the other is directly implying he and his order are wrong about their own ideology.
    JinsunPraxidesTael
  • UlaUla Member Posts: 71 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
     well thats fine, if someone is going to explain that to my character, you are missing the point. whether or not its valid is not salient, beyond the fact that it is split, which should be evidence that I am not completely off my rocker. further, the chaos court and babel are not the same thing. and lastly, you don't actually know what my opinion is, so what are you even talking about?
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  • AyamiAyami Member Posts: 79 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited September 2015
    You literally just posted your opinion (or, more accurately, the opinion your character publicly preaches), textually, and I am explaining why that might get you flak in game.
    Tael
  • UlaUla Member Posts: 71 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited September 2015
    and im saying, my complaint is not about getting or not getting flak. its about the complete dismissal of conversation. the specifics are not relevent to theidea, that since the ren Occultists have been acting like know-it-all jerks, even when before many of them were grounded enough to at least engage in a discussion. If someone actually engaged me in conversation, instead of just assuming im trying to convince them of my own view, or dissuade them from theirs. instead of assuming they are correct because of the illusion of authority. And again, I don't mean you jinsun. you are the person who disagrees with me, but still conversed.
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  • AchimrstAchimrst NatureMember Posts: 3,608 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Ayami said:
    You literally just posted your opinion (or, more accurately, the opinion your character publicly preaches), textually, and I am explaining why that might get you flak in game.
    Can you even play Achaea without flak?
    Brean
  • AyamiAyami Member Posts: 79 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited September 2015
    People, either real or characters in-game, generally do not have infinite time to spend debating their views. If you want people to debate you, you must make it interesting for them. "Babel is wrong about Babel" is unlikely to interest most Occultists, who have been dealing with similar arguments for hundreds of years in-game. With the new state of affairs, publicly humoring arguments is a lot less necessary for characters who would view their position as secured now.
    TaelPraxides
  • UlaUla Member Posts: 71 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    thats a copout and  the refuge of an idiot with a superiority complex. 
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  • AyamiAyami Member Posts: 79 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    The entire concept of the Occultists guild and house was based on a superiority complex, justified or not. Playing characters with a flaw is a good thing.
    TaelMorroPraxides
  • UlaUla Member Posts: 71 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    "babel is wrong about babel' is not something i have said, is an innacurate paraphrasing. but seriously, good job arbitrarily deciding which parts of what has been said, to read. if you are reading what ive said as babel is wrong about babel, then that is wrong. i dont have any issue with babel. this thread is about ashtan, and i have been talking abotu occultists being dicks since the ren. how you would react, to your imagined idea of what those conversations were about, is so utterly meaningless. What you think you've gathered about the view of the world ula has, is incorrect. 
    what is so hard to understand, that i am not complaining about my ideas being rejected, i am complaining about attitudes of people who are doing the rejecting. by no means does that mean everyone who has rejected the idea falls into these complaints, nor does it mean that those who haven't do not. 


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  • TrevizeTrevize Member Posts: 1,517 @ - Epic Achaean
    Ula said:
    "babel is wrong about babel' is not something i have said, is an innacurate paraphrasing. but seriously, good job arbitrarily deciding which parts of what has been said, to read. if you are reading what ive said as babel is wrong about babel, then that is wrong....

    Ula said:
    yes, well i have mostly been argueing with nihilists that destruction of creation is anti babelian...

    Maybe I'm reading this wrong.
    Current scripts: GoldTracker 1.2, mData 1.1
    Site: https://github.com/trevize-achaea/scripts/releases
    Thread: http://forums.achaea.com/discussion/4064/trevizes-scripts
    Latest update: 9/26/2015 better character name handling in GoldTracker, separation of script and settings, addition of gold report and gold distribute aliases.
    AyamiTael
  • UlaUla Member Posts: 71 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    yes you are.
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  • UlaUla Member Posts: 71 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Aerek said:
    If you think you know more about Chaos and Babel's intentions than Babel does, I don't think your detractors are the ones with a superiority complex.
    what is the basis of this assumption? where have I said or done anything remotely suggestive of this? Oh wait, I haven't and you are jumping on a bandwagon. Wow. this forum can be a disaster.
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  • TrevizeTrevize Member Posts: 1,517 @ - Epic Achaean
    Ula said:
    yes you are.
    What is the basis of this assumption? Where have I said or done anything remotely suggestive of this? Oh wait...

    (I had to!)
    Current scripts: GoldTracker 1.2, mData 1.1
    Site: https://github.com/trevize-achaea/scripts/releases
    Thread: http://forums.achaea.com/discussion/4064/trevizes-scripts
    Latest update: 9/26/2015 better character name handling in GoldTracker, separation of script and settings, addition of gold report and gold distribute aliases.
    Brean
  • JacenJacen Member Posts: 2,304 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    At 26 years old, its hardly surprising or condemning that you're being dismissed instead of debated with. Reading this thread, I'm not even convinced you aren't a troll trying to stir up trouble in Ashtan (more capitalization would help that impression, though). 
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    BreanShirszaeTaelPraxides
  • UlaUla Member Posts: 71 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    well i've been playing achaea since about 2003, but regardless, i think i've proven myself in that sense, in the sense that im not a troll, by being pretty active in the city and crap. i get the capitalization piece, but its a habit i've grown to not care about, so that probably won't ever change. I can understand if someone doesn't want to get into a discussion, doesnt have the time, or it just isnt their bag. thats fine, ulas best friend is basically mute, and we hunt for hours in silence, and occasionally she laments hunting as a serpent. i dont begrudge people their playstyles. 
    i also have not tried to represent or express her theology here, i've used the most throw away sentences that could still be construed as true, when i had to, because my complaint isn't about that. people who are looking at my complaint on the level of well, what did she say? i just dont care about their opinion, that is a certain kind of cruelty i have no interest in. my problem is, groups of people who before the ren were great to talk to, in regards to what ive mentioned above, who at least seemed interested in my thoughts and the discussion, in a reciprocal way, who welcomed the conversation and didn't seem dismiss it before, seem to have no interest in the conversation anymore, and instead of just say, steering the conversation away, or going to do something else, or even telling me they aren't interested, they tell me i should get out before i even hearing what i have to say. they are saying basically, get on board with -US- or get out of ashtan.

    thanks to other people, @Jinsun included, i was able to determine that there was still a place, but it would probably lonely.
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  • TahquilTahquil Member Posts: 4,277 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Hey! Ashtan is now Choasy now! 

    I think this thread has covered that and thusly run its course.
    NaverreUlaJinsunSzanthax
  • AodfionnAodfionn Seattle, WAMember Posts: 1,216 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Tahquil said:
    Hey! Ashtan is now Choasy now! 

    I think this thread has covered that and thusly run its course.
    Kay, Aussie. 
    Aurora says, "Are you drunk, Aodfionn?" 

    (The Targossian Academy): Halos says, "Go on! I need to feel the wind in my hair!"


  • SilvarienSilvarien Member Posts: 576 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    edited September 2015
    Aodfionn said:
    Tahquil said:
    Hey! Ashtan is now Choasy now! 

    I think this thread has covered that and thusly run its course.
    Kay, Aussie. 
    @Aodfionn : I am now convinced that @Tahquil owns the boomerang artefact.
  • TaelTael Member Posts: 1,197 @ - Epic Achaean
    Tahquil said:
    Hey! Ashtan is now Choasy now! 

    I think this thread has covered that and thusly run its course.
    While the last two pages have been a headache to even read, there are few things more annoying in a forum than someone posting to a thread to tell other people to stop posting to the thread.

    If you don't think there's anything more to say in a thread, just stop clicking on it. Because while you think there's nothing more to say, I can think of a lot of other things people might want to discuss here that I would be interested in reading.
    AyamiJacenShirszae
  • TahquilTahquil Member Posts: 4,277 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited September 2015
    Sorry for trying to quell some misdirected angst and misunderstandings. I guess you know, have at it. Indulge in those frustrations, negative feelings and keep twisting words and growing more and more angry at other parties.

    Obligatory : WHY CAN'T WE JUST GET ALONG AND NOT LOSE SIGHT OF ORIGIN.
    AodfionnMorro
  • UlaUla Member Posts: 71 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    i think theres still stuff to talk about, definitely tired of going over my piece though, someone else shift the topic. lol

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  • JinsunJinsun TN, USAMember Posts: 2,908 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    A slight shift in topic. I think it's very difficult to balance being an abrasive/harsh new direction with wanting to be inclusive without either forcing too many out, or pandering to too many. I'm trying to help people and learn a balance, but there's some that obviously need to go, and others that I'd like to guide into it. One thing that always bugged me about some hardcore RPers is that, if their character is mean or bitchy, then it is relentlessly so in every situation. It's hard, I think, knowing when to pull back the reins without sacrificing the genuineness of the character. Jinsun is cold and pretty snobby, but it's almost impossible to retain anyone's interest in your activities if you're constantly offputting.  I think it's just something that a lot of people will have to adjust to in Ashtan. Also, if you have to say, "My character is just really mean/bitchy." to justify obviously overkill responses,  it is probably going to go too far, and is detrimental to your character in the long run.
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    TaelUla
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