A Brand New Ashtan

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  • edited August 2015
    If it becomes a hard-coded thing, can the ability to do such like... Not be given to... Any of the current Occultists in the game, and just wait for someone who won't abuse it? Thanks.

    Maybe Sybilla, I dunno. But no one else who currently is an Occultist.


  •                          [CITY LEADERS]
                          Overseer: Jy'Barrak Dameron
              The Archon Ascendant: Dunn
                            Patron: Vastar
                           Archons: Jhui, Triak, Jonesey, Dunn, and Ryldagh
                        Ambassador: Ariettie
                   Minister of War: Jhui
              Minister of Security: Seragorn
                         Treasurer: Kald
                           Steward: Triak
                 Minister of Trade: Josoul
                        Chancellor: Kyrra
      Minister of Cultural Affairs: Khaibit
           Minister of Development: Sybilla
      Minister of Maritime Affairs: Ryldagh

                 [DENIZENS THAT CAN MAKE YOU A CITIZEN]
                          Epicurus - ASK EPICURUS JOIN ASHTAN

                        [CURRENTLY IN THE REALM]
       Able to induct new citizens: Atalkez

    Easily fixed, @Cynlael




    Penwize has cowardly forfeited the challenge to mortal combat issued by Atalkez.
  • edited August 2015
    There's a lot of talk about factionalized classes -- while this has probably been said already, I think it would be fair if every City had at least one of those. Cyrene doesn't and Hashan doesn't. Would add to those Cities' culture if that was rectified, and every City would have a powerful draw to citizenship, of those people who just MUST have that class.
  • Cyrene gets Bards, Hashan gets Alchemists.  GG guys.  GG
  • edited August 2015
    Atalkez said:

    Easily fixed, @Cynlael
    ??? First you essentially say Ashtan should have control over who gets pacts and who doesn't (excomm, basically)... Now you imply it should be admin-controlled... Like it already is... Make up your mind.

    Getting enemied to Chaos plane stops you from getting pacts, btw. Which I'm p sure is done by Babel, IIRC.

    edit: If I misunderstood your post, then idk. Be more specific when discussing things.

  • Cynlael said:
    If it becomes a hard-coded thing, can the ability to do such like... Not be given to... Any of the current Occultists in the game, and just wait for someone who won't abuse it? Thanks.

    Maybe Sybilla, I dunno. But no one else who currently is an Occultist.
    Who are you?

    Silvarien said:
    There's a lot of talk about factionalized classes -- while this has probably been said already, I think it would be fair if every City had at least one of those. Cyrene doesn't and Hashan doesn't. Would add to those Cities' culture if that was rectified, and every City would have a powerful draw to citizenship, of those people who just MUST have that class.
    Give each city a firm ideology first. I love what Cyrene's done with Neutrality, but it doesn't lend itself to an actual alignment.

    Say what you want about the tenets of Nihilism, Donny, at least it's an ethos.

  • ShirszaeShirszae Santo Domingo
    edited August 2015
    Basileios said:
    Cyrene gets Bards
    Don't make me burn your grove.  :p

    And you won't understand the cause of your grief...


    ...But you'll always follow the voices beneath.

  • edited August 2015
    Cyrene doesn't need a factional class to draw citizenship. They are now the only city in which you can be a member and not be forced into some cause you don't want to support. You can literally do your own thing, as long as you don't A ) steal and B ) do something that would make the city suffer for it. Everything else is pretty much golden. Now that Ashtan isn't the city of Freedom, the people who weren't there for Chaos will probably end up moving to Cyrene.

    Edit: Stupid emotes ruining my lists...
  • Cynlael said:
    Atalkez said:

    Easily fixed, @Cynlael
    ??? First you essentially say Ashtan should have control over who gets pacts and who doesn't (excomm, basically)... Now you imply it should be admin-controlled... Like it already is... Make up your mind.

    Getting enemied to Chaos plane stops you from getting pacts, btw. Which I'm p sure is done by Babel, IIRC.

    edit: If I misunderstood your post, then idk. Be more specific when discussing things.

    I never said anything about physically "excommunicating", I simply said that there are RP justifications for attempting to make it hard on a rogue Occultist, ala what Arditi was talking about.

    You said you wouldn't want to see it in a players hand, and I agree with that.

    I thought I was pretty specific, maybe I was wrong.




    Penwize has cowardly forfeited the challenge to mortal combat issued by Atalkez.
  • AodfionnAodfionn Seattle, WA
    Just do it the way Mhaldor does; admin-appointed individual who can also remove the sanctions on the person. You really don't want to be asking the admins to be paying attention and making the judgment call to do that to someone; pick someone you know isn't going to bail, and let them do it. Make an RP thing of it. Make it interesting. Don't pawn that off on the admins 'because it has potential for abuse.' So does Excom/Anathema, but you'd be hard pressed to find an example of abuse from either of those in their current incarnations. 

    If Mhaldor and Targossas and Eleusis players can handle it, there's no reason to believe Ashtan's players couldn't be trusted with the same. 
    Aurora says, "Are you drunk, Aodfionn?"
  • Has something changed with Eleusis, or is their measure of control still forest enemying like it used to be? Because that wasn't at all equatable to anathema/excom. 

    If anything, it seems like the very limited actual mechanical control Eleusis has traditionally had over forestal's skills, as well as the historical strength of the occultists as representing Chaos as a faction despite no mechanical controls seems like it would prove further fictionalization of the occultist class unnecessary.

    Like, the entire city is devoted to Chaos now. I don't think anyone's going to go "oh look, a rogue occultist, I guess Chaos isn't based in Ashtan" any more then people would say that about forestals and Eleusis post-alchemists.
  • Sentinels lose their entities, if they're enemied to the forest. That's a pretty solid comparison for anathema/excomm, since you aint killing anyone without access to those, bar squishy people and skullbashing them. Dunno about sylvans/druids.

  • edited August 2015
    Cynlael said:
    Dunno about sylvans/druids.
    Forest-enemy Sylvans and Druids can no longer gain sunlight for their groves, last I checked. Since groves lose sunlight over time without Seal, it'll eventually drain down to zero and then they'll be SOL on the entire skill unless they have a nondecay quarterstaff or Splinter to recharge manually. Don't think Harmony works either, but forest enemies won't be members of the Scions/Kin/Eleusis, so they wouldn't get it anyway.
    - (Eleusis): Ellodin says, "The Fissure of Echoes is Sarathai's happy place."
    - With sharp, crackling tones, Kyrra tells you, "The ladies must love you immensely."
    - (Eleusian Ranger Techs): Savira says, "Most of the hard stuff seem to have this built in code like: If adventurer_hitting_me = "Sarathai" then send("terminate and selfdestruct")."
    - Makarios says, "Serve well and perish."
    - Xaden says, "Xaden confirmed scrub 2017."



  • Sarathai said:
    Cynlael said:
    Dunno about sylvans/druids.
    Forest-enemy Sylvans and Druids can no longer gain sunlight for their groves, last I checked. Since groves lose sunlight over time without Seal, it'll eventually drain down to zero and then they'll be SOL on the entire skill unless they have a nondecay quarterstaff or Splinter to recharge manually. Don't think Harmony works either, but forest enemies won't be members of the Scions/Kin/Eleusis, so they wouldn't get it anyway.
    Should add that you'd have to actively work against Nature (not just eleusis) to get forest enemied. Unless you help exterminate, you won't get enemied to the forests. Being a member of a city, helping to defend and even raiding Eleusis wouldn't get you forest enemied!
    image
  • VayneVayne Rhode Island
    Man, the thing I always loved and respected about the Occultists were how they managed there class through influence. They made it so if you want to play an Occultist, I mean really play an Occultists, you had to join their club. They created a strong stigma around playing an Occultists anywhere else(read rogue or Hashani) with the rest of the cities helping indirectly by banning the class. While this new change seems cool and maybe Ashtan needed it(doesn't seem like Ashtan needs any help to me but I'm an outsider), but I think going overboard with the factional class thing would be limiting in the long run.

    I think @Trevize made a good point, why would they pact with people they do not want to? Since an NPC is in control of it, I think it would be rather easy to control this from that side and would not be immersion breaking or break from the cool culture the Occultists have developed.

    That said, even though I don't really like factional classes, if you guys get one then I want one too.
    image
  • I also don't see why everyone is assuming that non-Ashtani Occultists would be mercilessly ganked.

    It's just as easy to check ENTITIES, cross-reference that against Ashtani Occultists, and then go saunter to the unaccounted entities and start banishing/throwing orb sigils while delivering a stern lecture.

    This can continue until they delete the ENTITIES command, which has the curious bullshit property of being a decent Veil bypass.

  • I sort of love/hate the idea of a factional occultist. Though I am loathe to even vaguely agree with @Cynlael on anything, I do have disdain for the thought of any player having immediate control of another player's abilities, and while I probably do not agree on the who, there are certainly players whose fingers I would be terrified to have on that proverbial red button. Even, though I am an Occultist and have followed Chaos since Jinsun's Creation, I would not want my interactions with that player to be constantly colored with the fear that a terse comversation could result in the loss of the investment of real money and countless hours of work. Also, I think that it can
    be somewhat limiting in RP. That's not necessarily a bad thing, and there is a good
    reason that some classes have been factionalized. However, it eliminates some good permutations (I so badly want to
    be a Druid/occultist!).

    Now to why I am torn:
    One thing that happens when a city or faction gets new shinies is that there is a flood of alts and players who just want to see what is going on. That's to be expected, and we as players cannot be selfish with our glorious new awesomes. Personally, I've already fielded some questions from new Occultists as we don't really have a house safeguarding it, though I generally only help Ashtani. Here's what I do hate, though, there are some players who make no attempt to reconcile IG centuries of conflict with Ashtan, quit their own faction, then go Occultist and beg Jinsun to teach them as well as asking other citizens to pester other Occultists. I am heavily against permanent enemy status, but if you're going to be an Occultist it doesn't make much sense to hide in Cyrene's bell tower, remain enemied to Ashtan and beg stalwart members that you've fought against for years to pity you. OOCly it is really annoying because it is lazy and piss poor RP, and I can't do much about it aside from telling the person how unwelcome they are and encouraging other players and organizations to blackball them. ICly it is frustrating because Jinsun really would want to camp the Plane and make sure they never get a pact, and he probably would be a bit justified given their alignment against Chaos. I just don't see that working out well for me from a PK standpoint. That's really the only reason I would want it to be factional, but mayhaps a mechanical  change to enemies of Ashtan being able to form pacts would remedy that. The thought would still make me uneasy given the easy of enemying someone. The thought of Avianca being an Occultist makes me even more uneasy.
    image
  • Y'all are pissing on eachother for no reason. I'll submit a request to Dameron and it'll get reviewed just like all my other ones. This is largely s player driven Chaos faction at this point so I will see where we can drive, but I was told by Glaaki early on that they did not have plans to ignore non-Ashtani Occultists. I do not believe non-Ashtani can receive a pact from him based on some of his statements.


  • TharvisTharvis The Land of Beer and Chocolate!
    Dunn said:
    Y'all are pissing on eachother for no reason. I'll submit a request to Dameron and it'll get reviewed just like all my other ones. This is largely s player driven Chaos faction at this point so I will see where we can drive, but I was told by Glaaki early on that they did not have plans to ignore non-Ashtani Occultists. I do not believe non-Ashtani can receive a pact from him based on some of his statements.
    we have a couple occultist with Glaaki pacts.

    If I remember correctly though, Xenophage used to be loyal to the occultist house. This quite effectively barred occultists that angered the house from pacting with Xenophage (basically taking away their instant travel to the chaos plane)
    That specific clause, for Xenophage, could be put back into place for enemies of Ashtan maybe?
    Aurora says, "Tharvis, why are you always breaking things?!"
    Artemis says, "You are so high maintenance, Tharvis, gosh."
    Tecton says, "It's still your fault, Tharvis."

  • Sounds plausible. I was going to make a broad suggestion of the Court viewing Ashtani Occultists more favorably so it would be on them to define what they're willing to do.


  • Glaaki will pact with Ashtani at a reduced karma cost, and Golgotha will pact with Ashtani at an increased karma cost. You can determine that from the messages when beginning a pact.

    Xenophage never did as is described, his refusal is just a part of the result of being banned from domination.

  • TharvisTharvis The Land of Beer and Chocolate!
    @Makarios but he did attack the enemies of the occultists on sight, right?
    Probably misinterpreted it as global refusal, Asmodron never bothered to stand still long enough with Xenophage to try pacting
    Aurora says, "Tharvis, why are you always breaking things?!"
    Artemis says, "You are so high maintenance, Tharvis, gosh."
    Tecton says, "It's still your fault, Tharvis."

  • Dunn said:
    Y'all are pissing on eachother for no reason. I'll submit a request to Dameron and it'll get reviewed just like all my other ones. This is largely s player driven Chaos faction at this point so I will see where we can drive, but I was told by Glaaki early on that they did not have plans to ignore non-Ashtani Occultists. I do not believe non-Ashtani can receive a pact from him based on some of his statements.
    Not really wanting to piss on anyone. Sorry if it came across that way. Was just trying to say how I felt about it, either way. To be honest, the class has too much utility from a group perspective to be fair factionally. 
    image
  • Jinsun said:
    Not really wanting to piss on anyone. Sorry if it came across that way. Was just trying to say how I felt about it, either way. To be honest, the class has too much utility from a group perspective to be fair factionally. 
    Four cities in the game work just fine without them.

  • SarienoSarieno Spokane, WA
    Arditi said:
    Jinsun said:
    Not really wanting to piss on anyone. Sorry if it came across that way. Was just trying to say how I felt about it, either way. To be honest, the class has too much utility from a group perspective to be fair factionally. 
    Four cities in the game work just fine without them.
    Not to mention there's maybe three active occultists in Hashan, maybe four. They are probably tied with Jesters for the least amount in Hashan.


    twitter - @spacemanreno
  • Sarieno said:
    Not to mention there's maybe three active occultists in Hashan, maybe four. They are probably tied with Jesters for the least amount in Hashan.
    If this is true, then it's even more evidence against allowing Hashan to even have the ability to make pacts in the first place.

    I'm not Hashani so I don't know about the depths of their RP, but I'm willing to bet that 'summoning chaos entities' is a very very very small portion of it. Scientific experiments with karmic energy and Chaos? Go hog wild. It's the foundation that Occultism was built on: Small scattered cabals all working towards an ideal through different means, most of them horrible failures like the crypt beast. Banning karma is the wrong way to go about it, and it's not something I've argued for.

  • WHAT DID I JUST SAY ABOUT USING THIS THREAD TO TALK ABOUT FACTIONALISING CLASSES TO CITIES?!
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