A Brand New Ashtan

Tharvis

Sybilla said:

WHAT DID I JUST SAY ABOUT USING THIS THREAD TO TALK ABOUT FACTIONALISING CLASSES TO CITIES?!

to go ahead and do it?

Aerek

Sybilla said:

WHAT DID I JUST SAY ABOUT USING THIS THREAD TO TALK ABOUT FACTIONALISING CLASSES TO CITIES?!

Dunn

ITT Firefly pics and gifs.

Sybilla

Yes. I'm on board with that.

Silvarien

Sybilla said:

WHAT DID I JUST SAY ABOUT USING THIS THREAD TO TALK ABOUT FACTIONALISING CLASSES TO CITIES?!

@Sybilla : I vote to sever all ties of Necromancy with Mhaldor and forcibly tie Infernals and Apostates to Targossas instead. It makes complete sense RP-wise if the whole Garden gets slipped so much spiked ambrosia by Lady Pandora that the whole Garden goes permanently insane and Mischief takes over Sapience.

Melodie

I am okay with that if we get Paladins and Priests in return.   Ahem.

To contribute something actually on topic: Congrats Ashtan! It's nice to have a foe I don't have to make clauses for to (ICly) dislike. Definitely looking forward to what you guys do with yourselves. 

Antonius

Sybilla said:

Yes. I'm on board with that.

That looks like a Castle gif. Cheater!

Lala

Yeah this is so me during this thread.

Tael

I have mixed feelings about this development.

On the one hand, I'm pretty sure it will be good for the city to have a unified purpose and it will certainly be nice to have fewer people running around yelling about their lolfreedom. And if there were going to be any theme going forward, this is certainly the right one. I also like that, functionally speaking, this is just a codification of all the endless complaints about how Ashtan's raiding was basically just destruction for its own sake and entertainment - I like that their flavour is now just "Yes. That." and no one can really complain about their lashing out being unmotivated.

On the other hand, one of the big draws of Ashtan for me was always that it was sort of a melange of very different groups. You had a lot of conflicting goals, a lot of subgroups, a lot of politicking, and, more than any other, it really felt like a big cosmopolitan city. Personally, I like the Occultists as an at least nominally behind-the-scenes puppetmaster sort of thing more than as rulers too. Hashan had that cosmopolitan melting pot thing going a little bit too, but it never quite worked there, whereas Ashtan definitely made it work and a lot of the intra-city conflict was actually pretty compelling. I'm a little bit sad to see that go - it feels like a symptom of how the world is getting a little more "gamified" and a little less naturalistic, and I've always loved the more naturalistic stuff in Achaea. Probably just rose-coloured glasses and all that, and I definitely see how the Renaissance has been a positive thing in most ways, but I do lament seeing clearer factionalisation for the only city that really felt like a big, traditional, bustling, cosmopolitan fantasy city to me.

I think it's probably a better direction for Ashtan's current and future players, but more than any other city's renaissance, Ashtan is one where I'm sad to see the old ways go.

Aerek

It's the same way combat has changed over the years from wild, systemless improvisation to mechanically/mathematically codified kill avenues vs server-side curing.  I miss the old days where you could just try things and see what happened against most opponents, but enjoy the new age of combat as being more fair and better for the game all around.

Ula

Tael said:

I have mixed feelings about this development.

On the one hand, I'm pretty sure it will be good for the city to have a unified purpose and it will certainly be nice to have fewer people running around yelling about their lolfreedom. And if there were going to be any theme going forward, this is certainly the right one. I also like that, functionally speaking, this is just a codification of all the endless complaints about how Ashtan's raiding was basically just destruction for its own sake and entertainment - I like that their flavour is now just "Yes. That." and no one can really complain about their lashing out being unmotivated.

On the other hand, one of the big draws of Ashtan for me was always that it was sort of a melange of very different groups. You had a lot of conflicting goals, a lot of subgroups, a lot of politicking, and, more than any other, it really felt like a big cosmopolitan city. Personally, I like the Occultists as an at least nominally behind-the-scenes puppetmaster sort of thing more than as rulers too. Hashan had that cosmopolitan melting pot thing going a little bit too, but it never quite worked there, whereas Ashtan definitely made it work and a lot of the intra-city conflict was actually pretty compelling. I'm a little bit sad to see that go - it feels like a symptom of how the world is getting a little more "gamified" and a little less naturalistic, and I've always loved the more naturalistic stuff in Achaea. Probably just rose-coloured glasses and all that, and I definitely see how the Renaissance has been a positive thing in most ways, but I do lament seeing clearer factionalisation for the only city that really felt like a big, traditional, bustling, cosmopolitan fantasy city to me.

I think it's probably a better direction for Ashtan's current and future players, but more than any other city's renaissance, Ashtan is one where I'm sad to see the old ways go.

i wanted to echo these sentiments. OOC i joined ashtan for the entirety of that paragraph about conflicting factions inside the city. Not because of the ties to chaos. obviously its a logical progression from a metagame standpoint. but if OOC you can't figure out why people are irritated? then maybe you shouldn't be roleplaying.

IC I kne/ow about its connections to chaos, and I try to spread chaos in my own way and I am getting sick and tired of being talked to like im an idiot because my ways are not the nihilists. What made ashtan interesting was not the secrets, but who knew which secrets. Before the ren I could go to fire and spice and have a fantastic conversation about chaos and nihilism and mythos and theology, and literally the day of the accords, I go to fire and spice and the same people no longer care about conversing, they care about making sure you follow chaos in a way that is acceptable. I've spoken to some people, who are wholly invested in not understanding my position. They just want to say, 'no you don't understand chaos'. screw you, apparently I understand it better then you, if you think imposing order on the way we bring chaos, is in line with chaos(this is what the citizenry is doing, not the city as a game-entity).

i won't leave the city, because ic my friends live here, the friends i joined ashtan to fight along side. i wont leave, because I am not against chaos. But I may end up leaving if ashtan really does just become a plaything for nihilists and occultists.

tl;dr 80% of the city needs a serious f'n humbling

Danith

Ula said:

i wanted to echo these sentiments. OOC i joined ashtan for the entirety of that paragraph about conflicting factions inside the city. Not because of the ties to chaos. obviously its a logical progression from a metagame standpoint. but if OOC you can't figure out why people are irritated? then maybe you shouldn't be roleplaying.

IC I kne/ow about its connections to chaos, and I try to spread chaos in my own way and I am getting sick and tired of being talked to like im an idiot because my ways are not the nihilists. What made ashtan interesting was not the secrets, but who knew which secrets. Before the ren I could go to fire and spice and have a fantastic conversation about chaos and nihilism and mythos and theology, and literally the day of the accords, I go to fire and spice and the same people no longer care about conversing, they care about making sure you follow chaos in a way that is acceptable. I've spoken to some people, who are wholly invested in not understanding my position. They just want to say, 'no you don't understand chaos'. screw you, apparently I understand it better then you, if you think imposing order on the way we bring chaos, is in line with chaos(this is what the citizenry is doing, not the city as a game-entity).

i won't leave the city, because ic my friends live here, the friends i joined ashtan to fight along side. i wont leave, because I am not against chaos. But I may end up leaving if ashtan really does just become a plaything for nihilists and occultists.

tl;dr 80% of the city needs a serious f'n humbling I wish Achaea was a single-player game.

FTFY.

Ula

Danith said:

Ula said:

i wanted to echo these sentiments. OOC i joined ashtan for the entirety of that paragraph about conflicting factions inside the city. Not because of the ties to chaos. obviously its a logical progression from a metagame standpoint. but if OOC you can't figure out why people are irritated? then maybe you shouldn't be roleplaying.

IC I kne/ow about its connections to chaos, and I try to spread chaos in my own way and I am getting sick and tired of being talked to like im an idiot because my ways are not the nihilists. What made ashtan interesting was not the secrets, but who knew which secrets. Before the ren I could go to fire and spice and have a fantastic conversation about chaos and nihilism and mythos and theology, and literally the day of the accords, I go to fire and spice and the same people no longer care about conversing, they care about making sure you follow chaos in a way that is acceptable. I've spoken to some people, who are wholly invested in not understanding my position. They just want to say, 'no you don't understand chaos'. screw you, apparently I understand it better then you, if you think imposing order on the way we bring chaos, is in line with chaos(this is what the citizenry is doing, not the city as a game-entity).

i won't leave the city, because ic my friends live here, the friends i joined ashtan to fight along side. i wont leave, because I am not against chaos. But I may end up leaving if ashtan really does just become a plaything for nihilists and occultists.

tl;dr 80% of the city needs a serious f'n humbling I wish Achaea were a single-player game.

FTFY. im incapable of reading comprehension so decided to just be an antagonistic dick

FTFY

Danith

Nice to meet you, my name's Danith.

Ula

hi, im a person who is tired of having my comments reduced to dismissable innacuries.

Arditi

I can't speak for everybody else's Chaos theories, but I know the crowd you were around and I'm not surprised.

Chaos should be a polarizing ideal: Either you support it or you run off to Cyrene/Hashan/somewhere else you can pretend that the world's not ending.

But polarizing != exclusive. 

If you can grok the basic idea of Chaos, then there's a place for you somewhere and you need to find it or make it.  If you're not making headway with certain people, ask others. As long as you're willing to work towards it, I can't see you being run out of the city/game.

Acknu

Tael said:

I have mixed feelings about this development.

On the one hand, I'm pretty sure it will be good for the city to have a unified purpose and it will certainly be nice to have fewer people running around yelling about their lolfreedom. And if there were going to be any theme going forward, this is certainly the right one. I also like that, functionally speaking, this is just a codification of all the endless complaints about how Ashtan's raiding was basically just destruction for its own sake and entertainment - I like that their flavour is now just "Yes. That." and no one can really complain about their lashing out being unmotivated.

On the other hand, one of the big draws of Ashtan for me was always that it was sort of a melange of very different groups. You had a lot of conflicting goals, a lot of subgroups, a lot of politicking, and, more than any other, it really felt like a big cosmopolitan city. Personally, I like the Occultists as an at least nominally behind-the-scenes puppetmaster sort of thing more than as rulers too. Hashan had that cosmopolitan melting pot thing going a little bit too, but it never quite worked there, whereas Ashtan definitely made it work and a lot of the intra-city conflict was actually pretty compelling. I'm a little bit sad to see that go - it feels like a symptom of how the world is getting a little more "gamified" and a little less naturalistic, and I've always loved the more naturalistic stuff in Achaea. Probably just rose-coloured glasses and all that, and I definitely see how the Renaissance has been a positive thing in most ways, but I do lament seeing clearer factionalisation for the only city that really felt like a big, traditional, bustling, cosmopolitan fantasy city to me.

I think it's probably a better direction for Ashtan's current and future players, but more than any other city's renaissance, Ashtan is one where I'm sad to see the old ways go.

I am not sure that the inter-politicking of Ashtan, conflicting goals, and subgroups will be gone forever or even diminished in the long run. As of right now the city just overcame adversity and has, for the moment, been unified towards one goal. However, the actors that were responsible for the inter-politicking in the first place will still be there and most likely these people who joined Ashtan for this very reason will still be seeking the same roleplaying experiences. I expect as the newness of the Renaissance starts to fade that people will start to assume their old mantle with just a different vocabulary (I don't see this as a bad thing and I don't mean lolfreedom). I would find it difficult to imagine Ashtan, Seat of Chaos without some form of dissonance within it, for better or for worse. It will be interesting to see what happens.

Ula

Arditi said:

I can't speak for everybody else's Chaos theories, but I know the crowd you were around and I'm not surprised.

Chaos should be a polarizing ideal: Either you support it or you run off to Cyrene/Hashan/somewhere else you can pretend that the world's not ending.

But polarizing != exclusive. 

If you can grok the basic idea of Chaos, then there's a place for you somewhere and you need to find it or make it.  If you're not making headway with certain people, ask others. As long as you're willing to work towards it, I can't see you being run out of the city/game.

thanks for this. this is why I have not left the city. Because I believe in my own way, and I believe it represents chaos accurately. as i said in fire and spice, I will stand strong and be my own bastion if it comes to it, but for now Ashtan houses my friends. I need to find other people to talk theology with, but im too shy to send random tells to @Aodfionn to come talk theology with me. (lol)

Jinsun

Ula said:

Arditi said:

I can't speak for everybody else's Chaos theories, but I know the crowd you were around and I'm not surprised.

Chaos should be a polarizing ideal: Either you support it or you run off to Cyrene/Hashan/somewhere else you can pretend that the world's not ending.

But polarizing != exclusive. 

If you can grok the basic idea of Chaos, then there's a place for you somewhere and you need to find it or make it.  If you're not making headway with certain people, ask others. As long as you're willing to work towards it, I can't see you being run out of the city/game.

thanks for this. this is why I have not left the city. Because I believe in my own way, and I believe it represents chaos accurately. as i said in fire and spice, I will stand strong and be my own bastion if it comes to it, but for now Ashtan houses my friends. I need to find other people to talk theology with, but im too shy to send random tells to @Aodfionn to come talk theology with me. (lol)

I hope that you did not feel that I wanted to dismiss your feelings or wanted to duck you. When we had our talk I was genuinely trying to keep an open dialogue, but I can't lie, I tried to be open and honest whilst a bit placating. You came across to me as impatient/annoyed that I didn't heartily agree with your position or beg you to stay. I do, as a player, want you to stay, else I'd not take a half of an hour out of my time to do so. There are some real hardliners and badapples but please do not let that frustrate you and hold you back, a lot of us are trying to move past that.

Ula

Jinsun said:

Ula said:

Arditi said:

I can't speak for everybody else's Chaos theories, but I know the crowd you were around and I'm not surprised.

Chaos should be a polarizing ideal: Either you support it or you run off to Cyrene/Hashan/somewhere else you can pretend that the world's not ending.

But polarizing != exclusive. 

If you can grok the basic idea of Chaos, then there's a place for you somewhere and you need to find it or make it.  If you're not making headway with certain people, ask others. As long as you're willing to work towards it, I can't see you being run out of the city/game.

thanks for this. this is why I have not left the city. Because I believe in my own way, and I believe it represents chaos accurately. as i said in fire and spice, I will stand strong and be my own bastion if it comes to it, but for now Ashtan houses my friends. I need to find other people to talk theology with, but im too shy to send random tells to @Aodfionn to come talk theology with me. (lol)

I hope that you did not feel that I wanted to dismiss your feelings or wanted to duck you. When we had our talk I was genuinely trying to keep an open dialogue, but I can't lie, I tried to be open and honest whilst a bit placating. You came across to me as impatient/annoyed that I didn't heartily agree with your position or beg you to stay. I do, as a player, want you to stay, else I'd not take a half of an hour out of my time to do so. There are some real hardliners and badapples but please do not let that frustrate you and hold you back, a lot of us are trying to move past that.

no jinsun, i didn't mean you. you did make me feel listened to, but you didn't have that different opinion from what i'd already heard. i didn't want you to agree, i wanted you to accept that my views may not agree, and tell me if from your perspective if you thought there was a place for people who's view of chaos is different, even if they still try to bring chaos. I was irritated because of the minor coddling, lol. I wanted a clear yes or no. ultimately you didn't give me that, but you were helpful none the less   

Aerek

Now I'm just an observer with no idea what conversations have gone down in Fire and Spice, but based purely on what's been said here, it's one thing to not be a gung-ho Chaos zealot. I'm sure Ashtan would let you live there and leave you alone if that's the case, as long as you weren't working against Chaos as your city's core ideal. But it's another thing to assert that the Admin-driven storyline and established leaders of the Chaos faction have it wrong, and you have your own "denomination" of Chaos worship. That's essentially preaching heresy, and while a valid avenue of roleplay if you want to do that, you should 100% expect to catch flak for bucking the system, because that's what you're doing.

Someone in Targossas/Mhaldor preaching that they had a "different perspective" on Good/Evil would get an even harsher treatment than you are right now.

Ula

Aerek said:

Now I'm just an observer with no idea what conversations have gone down in Fire and Spice, but based purely on what's been said here, it's one thing to not be a gung-ho Chaos zealot. I'm sure Ashtan would let you live there and leave you alone if that's the case, as long as you were tolerant of Chaos as your faction's core ideal and didn't work against it. But it's another thing to assert that the main proponents of Chaos have it wrong, and you have your own "denomination" of Chaos worship. That's essentially preaching "heresy", and while a valid avenue or roleplay, you should 100% expect to catch flak for bucking the system, because that's what you're doing.

Someone in Targossas/Mhaldor preaching that they had a "different perspective" on Good/Evil would get an even harsher treatment than you are right now.

what i was trying to figure out for sure, was the position the court has on that. which is why i wanted to know if there is still a place in ashtan. but its one thing to say im wrong, and another thing to tell me to leave. but i do not disagree with what you are saying.

edit for clarity: i was trying to learn if my views were seen as heresy, and therefore i should leave, or if it was fine as long as I am spreading chaos.

Jinsun

Ula said:

Jinsun said:

Ula said:

Arditi said:

I can't speak for everybody else's Chaos theories, but I know the crowd you were around and I'm not surprised.

Chaos should be a polarizing ideal: Either you support it or you run off to Cyrene/Hashan/somewhere else you can pretend that the world's not ending.

But polarizing != exclusive. 

If you can grok the basic idea of Chaos, then there's a place for you somewhere and you need to find it or make it.  If you're not making headway with certain people, ask others. As long as you're willing to work towards it, I can't see you being run out of the city/game.

thanks for this. this is why I have not left the city. Because I believe in my own way, and I believe it represents chaos accurately. as i said in fire and spice, I will stand strong and be my own bastion if it comes to it, but for now Ashtan houses my friends. I need to find other people to talk theology with, but im too shy to send random tells to @Aodfionn to come talk theology with me. (lol)

I hope that you did not feel that I wanted to dismiss your feelings or wanted to duck you. When we had our talk I was genuinely trying to keep an open dialogue, but I can't lie, I tried to be open and honest whilst a bit placating. You came across to me as impatient/annoyed that I didn't heartily agree with your position or beg you to stay. I do, as a player, want you to stay, else I'd not take a half of an hour out of my time to do so. There are some real hardliners and badapples but please do not let that frustrate you and hold you back, a lot of us are trying to move past that.

no jinsun, i didn't mean you. you did make me feel listened to, but you didn't have that different opinion from what i'd already heard. i didn't want you to agree, i wanted you to accept that my views may not agree, and tell me if from your perspective if you thought there was a place for people who's view of chaos is different, even if they still try to bring chaos. I was irritated because of the minor coddling, lol. I wanted a clear yes or no. ultimately you didn't give me that, but you were helpful none the less   

Oh ok was just making sure. I've been outright mean to people in the past and I'm trying to toe that line between playing a despicable character and being a human being. Those same people who told you basically get out have told me that since day one and still would have me gone if they had a reason. Theyre unnecessarily mean and cliquish, and quite honestly, they can kick a brick, get lost, suck a fuck, or whatever rating of euphemism you prefer. New Ashtan has a better purpose and people will and should leave but shouldn't be pushed out for not agreeing 100%

Ayami

The Occultists encouraged dissenting theories even within the house, but there's a difference between different theories within a framework and just having a completely out-there view. I'm not sure which you're at since we've never interacted ICly, but keep in mind the line between those two camps isn't always clear. There is a set, defined  goal for the faction of Chaos as is, and you can't really argue against the god that has lore reasons to know better than any mortal.

Essentially, arguing about details is usually seen as healthy debate, but trying to go against Babel is not going to be treated particularly kindly. You can't really exist in the Chaos faction unless you line up at least somewhat with the literal god in charge of it. Some of your wording makes it seem like you think the nihilists have no authority on the subject, but IC-wise they definitely do.

Lorielan

It might be worth noting that Ashtan as the Seat of Chaos in concert with the Chaos Lords has a very different, interim goal to Babel's stance via Nihilism. While neither contradict or oppose, Ashtan is not officially the Seat of Nihilism but an outpost of the Chaos Court, allied with and pushing those views/aims.

/knowledge, yo.

Ayami

That's true, but for practical purposes opposing Babel directly in the seat of Chaos isn't going to go well, I believe. I'm not saying it's wrong, simply that it'll quickly antagonize most of the people who orchestrated this change and currently support it.

Ula

Ayami said:

The Occultists encouraged dissenting theories even within the house, but there's a difference between different theories within a framework and just having a completely out-there view. I'm not sure which you're at since we've never interacted ICly, but keep in mind the line between those two camps isn't always clear. There is a set, defined  goal for the faction of Chaos as is, and you can't really argue against the god that has lore reasons to know better than any mortal.

Essentially, arguing about details is usually seen as healthy debate, but trying to go against Babel is not going to be treated particularly kindly. You can't really exist in the Chaos faction unless you line up at least somewhat with the literal god in charge of it. Some of your wording makes it seem like you think the nihilists have no authority on the subject, but IC-wise they definitely do.

yes, well i have mostly been argueing with nihilists that destruction of creation is anti babelian. the people who do listen to me, shout out to @Grom, don't seem to think i am out there.  @lorielan summed it up well, my position. why would babel care about the plane of chaos more or less than the prime material plane? it seems sort of arrogant to assume its because of the relationship to chaos, because all of achaea is in a relationship with chaos.

i would be happy to have this discussion in game. because thats what it is. what im talking about is the radical shift from accomodating to rudeness that has come with the occultists rise to open power.

Jinsun

Ula said:

Ayami said:

The Occultists encouraged dissenting theories even within the house, but there's a difference between different theories within a framework and just having a completely out-there view. I'm not sure which you're at since we've never interacted ICly, but keep in mind the line between those two camps isn't always clear. There is a set, defined  goal for the faction of Chaos as is, and you can't really argue against the god that has lore reasons to know better than any mortal.

Essentially, arguing about details is usually seen as healthy debate, but trying to go against Babel is not going to be treated particularly kindly. You can't really exist in the Chaos faction unless you line up at least somewhat with the literal god in charge of it. Some of your wording makes it seem like you think the nihilists have no authority on the subject, but IC-wise they definitely do.

yes, well i have mostly been argueing with nihilists that destruction of creation is anti babelian. the people who do listen to me, shout out to @Grom, don't seem to think i am out there. 

Oh that view is so contrarian you're not likely to be successful. Keep in mind some of the people you argued with actually met Babel.

Ula

Jinsun said:

Ula said:

Ayami said:

The Occultists encouraged dissenting theories even within the house, but there's a difference between different theories within a framework and just having a completely out-there view. I'm not sure which you're at since we've never interacted ICly, but keep in mind the line between those two camps isn't always clear. There is a set, defined  goal for the faction of Chaos as is, and you can't really argue against the god that has lore reasons to know better than any mortal.

Essentially, arguing about details is usually seen as healthy debate, but trying to go against Babel is not going to be treated particularly kindly. You can't really exist in the Chaos faction unless you line up at least somewhat with the literal god in charge of it. Some of your wording makes it seem like you think the nihilists have no authority on the subject, but IC-wise they definitely do.

yes, well i have mostly been argueing with nihilists that destruction of creation is anti babelian. the people who do listen to me, shout out to @Grom, don't seem to think i am out there. 

Oh that view is so contrarian you're not likely to be successful. Keep in mind some of the people you argued with actually met Babel.

there is no success or failure. meaning, im not trying to convince anyone. my aim is not to win people to my side of a conversation, but to get out of my conversation partner(s) the most illuminating information on their experience possible.

Ayami

But at that point you're just saying you know what Babel wants more than he himself does.