A Brand New Ashtan

Trevize

Bluef said:

Trevize said:

Bluef said:

Tharvis said:

Atalkez said:

Tharvis said:

as long as it doesn't make occultist a full-fledged factional class!

I hope it does.

dibs on shamans then

Not happening. Sowwy. :skull: 

All good things in time.

Perhaps! It is doubtful for the foreseeable future re: Shaman anyway. It's been asked and answered several times (as recently as during the Hashan Ren when certain players were stirring things up with other shaman in the realm, suggesting this very thing was coming our way). 

As much as it may add value to the realm's RP, there a significant problem with factionalizing classes as a whole though IMO. It's the same problem that exists with permaenemying:

Players, who have invested a lot of time and RL money in their characters, find themselves anathemitized from a class not because of their actions, per se, but because a clique of players controlling things at the time decide to RP that they should be.

That doesn't add value to the realm at all. It almost becomes a situation where such decisions must become outside the players' purview - which might actually be pretty cool because at least there would be some moderation on how things shake out (and legitimate roleplay/chances for players to make things right).

I was mostly teasing - I agree that factionalizing shaman would be troublesome. Not for your reasons, though - but for the simple fact that there is no warning in HELP SHAMAN and it's traditionally not.

For those that always have been (occultist, priest, etc) anyone taking them was (or should have been) well aware it's a possibility.

On topic re: occultists, I personally would expect it to go the way Nature has. Act against Chaos, lose pacts. Don't, and you're okay.

Arditi

It's been stated that they won't make Occultist a fully aligned class.

However, between the ENTITIES command and the fact that we can now totem the entire Chaos Plane, it will be trivial to hunt down rogues.

Ayami

If Occultists aren't officially made a factional class, allowing rogues to be hunted would be a good alternative! I'm not sure how well that'd go over, though.

Arditi

Ayami said:

If Occultists aren't officially made a factional class, allowing rogues to be hunted would be a good alternative! I'm not sure how well that'd go over, though.

I don't imagine there's going to be an "allow", so I'm probably going to be issued.

Price one pays, I guess.

Atalkez

Arditi said:

Ayami said:

If Occultists aren't officially made a factional class, allowing rogues to be hunted would be a good alternative! I'm not sure how well that'd go over, though.

I don't imagine there's going to be an "allow", so I'm probably going to be issued.

Price one pays, I guess.

Reasonable RP reasons usually win out in an issue. Log everything.

Shirszae

Pretty sure if you constantly hunt someone until they 'quit being occultists' you are going to find yourself on the leafy side.

Atalkez

Shirszae said:

Pretty sure if you constantly hunt someone until they 'quit being occultists' you are going to find yourself on the leafy side.

Quitting Occultist isn't the same as hunting them until they stop attempting to get Pacts from the Chaos Plane. There are RP reasons for limiting it.

It's a lot like how Devotion was pulled from Cyrene. Why should you get to play a class while also doing nothing to further the cause of the classes existence? At that point you're trumping RP for OOC reasons.

** Please be advised that this class comes with restrictions on your

actions. The Chaos Lords with whom you must bargain do not look with favour

upon those who would use the powers of Chaos to oppose those who work to

further Chaos.

There is legitimate RP as to why -not- furthering the aims of the Lords is the same as working against them if you're asking for their help via Pacts.

Kafziel

Eleusis should start hunting down Blademasters because they used ashes from a tree and Eleusis owns all trees. Unless they relinquish their ash-forged sword and refuse to collect any more ashes.

Shirszae

@Atalkez We'll see how that works in practice soon enough, I guess. 

Atalkez

Kafziel said:

Eleusis should start hunting down Blademasters because they used ashes from a tree and Eleusis owns all trees. Unless they relinquish their ash-forged sword and refuse to collect any more ashes.

That's not even close to the same thing. You're being contrarian for the sake of being contrary.

Kafziel

Atalkez said:

Kafziel said:

Eleusis should start hunting down Blademasters because they used ashes from a tree and Eleusis owns all trees. Unless they relinquish their ash-forged sword and refuse to collect any more ashes.

That's not even close to the same thing. You're being contrarian for the sake of being contrary.

Guilty as charged

Shirszae

You are just grasping at straws for a reason to attack people. If I remember correctly, Occultists were not allowed to do this very thing of attacking/preventing people from using the class in the past, and I cannot imagine why the Admins would allow it now, more so if they have stated they don't intend the class to be fully factionalised.

It'd be entirely different if/when people actually use the class to attack Ashtan or Ashtani or some such.

Aerek

Ehh, I don't know about that. If the Garden wanted to allow players to cut other players off from 1/3 of their skills, they'd give you an Excomm option. If they don't give you an Excomm option, it's pretty clear they don't want you doing that. A few RP deaths might be tolerated, but I doubt you'd win that issue if it continued.

I think Occultist makes sense as a factional class, and the fact that Domination has been revoked from "traitorous" Occultists in the past establishes precedent for Ashtan to get an Excomm option, (Just like Oakstone was re-instituted as a Dread Eclair equivalent with their Renaissance) but that's something that would have to come from the Garden's lips. I don't think that's something the players would have the right to decide and enforce on their own. If Hashan tried to de facto factionalize Shaman, and started ganking anyone who used Spiritlore, it wouldn't end well for them, either.

If I'm wrong, and we can do this, I'm coming for your Runewardens, people.

Jacen

Atalkez said:

There is legitimate RP as to why -not- furthering the aims of the Lords is the same as working against them if you're asking for their help via Pacts.

There's legitimate RP to do a lot of things that aren't allowed because they aren't conducive to a healthy, profitable, and novice-friendly gaming environment.

Atalkez

Shirszae said:

Not really. You are just grasping at straws for a reason to attack people. If I remember correctly, Occultists were not allowed to do this very thing of attacking/preventing people from using the class in the past, and I cannot imagine why the Admins would allow it now, more so if they have stated they don't intend the class to be fully factionalised.

It'd be entirely different if/when people actually use the class to attack Ashtan or Ashtani or some such.

Not really. It's pretty clearly laid out in the Help File of the class. If Ashtan is the seat of Chaos, and the Chaos Lords expect their followers to do their bidding in exchange for Pacts, then that line of logic is not hard to follow.

For reference, I'm not an Occultist and could care less about how anyone wants to RP the class or dealings with rogues of the class. All I'm saying is that there certainly is an RP avenue to follow in @Arditi line of thinking.

Jacen said:

Atalkez said:

There is legitimate RP as to why -not- furthering the aims of the Lords is the same as working against them if you're asking for their help via Pacts.

There's legitimate RP to do a lot of things that aren't allowed because they aren't conducive to a healthy, profitable, and novice-friendly gaming environment.

Who said anything about novice griefing?

Atalkez

Also, I'm pretty sure the Occultist class is the only class that has one of those warnings in the help file, that isn't 100% factionalized at this point in time.

Correct?

Seems to be leaning more and more towards factionalization of the class.

Jacen

Jacen said:

Atalkez said:

There is legitimate RP as to why -not- furthering the aims of the Lords is the same as working against them if you're asking for their help via Pacts.

There's legitimate RP to do a lot of things that aren't allowed because they aren't conducive to a healthy, profitable, and novice-friendly gaming environment.

Who said anything about novice griefing?

I was just speaking to the fact that "legitimate RP" doesn't translate to license to grief, or even license to PK.

Trevize

Seems like a really weak argument. If the Chaos Lords don't want them making pacts, why do they then do it?

Killing someone that the Chaos Lords made a pact with or preventing someone from being able to make a pact (when the Chaos Lords would allow it) seems like it's acting against their wishes, rather than for them.

Atalkez

You are forgetting that "cause" was removed from the game. There are ways to hinder someone without actually PK'ing them.

If you have a legitimate RP to do something, you have a leg to stand on, regardless of if it goes against popular opinion.

Trevize

Atalkez said:

Also, I'm pretty sure the Occultist class is the only class that has one of those warnings in the help file, that isn't 100% factionalized at this point in time.

Correct?

Seems to be leaning more and more towards factionalization of the class.

I am halfway expecting that route. However, it should be drawn out as 'we won't make/honour pacts unless you're Ashtani' or some such rather than some random Ashtani killing people they think don't deserve them (when it's clear the Chaos Lords think they do).

Atalkez

Only time will tell what the intention of these changes are.

Like I said above, Occultist is the only class with the warning that isn't entirely limited to a city now. (I didn't check every help file, so if I'm mistaken please correct me.) That's nothing to say that you can't be a rogue of said classes, because you absolutely can. 

However, if the "powers that be" deem you to be unworthy of said skills, the precedent has been set for you to be able to lose them. Occultist hasn't yet reached this point, but I firmly believe it's leaning in that direction.

Trevize

Atalkez said:

Only time will tell what the intention of these changes are.

Like I said above, Occultist is the only class with the warning that isn't entirely limited to a city now. (I didn't check every help file, so if I'm mistaken please correct me.) That's nothing to say that you can't be a rogue of said classes, because you absolutely can. 

However, if the "powers that be" deem you to be unworthy of said skills, the precedent has been set for you to be able to lose them. Occultist hasn't yet reached this point, but I firmly believe it's leaning in that direction.

It's still iffy. I wouldn't be surprised either way at this point.

I was actually surprised when I checked the forest ones, I thought they had a warning.

That said, the valid reason to kill argument is more rationalized than rational, and doesn't hold up. The 'no pacts' needs to come from the Chaos Lords, and would put an effective barrier on the class, whether it's from acting against Ashtan/Babel/Chaos Lords or just not a part of Chaos.

Mathonwy

You lose pacts if you, like, let people onto the Chaos Plane or attack the Chaos Lords or go out of your way to verbally abuse Babel. Those are legit the last three times I remember someone getting occie-excommed, and occie-excomm requires admin to step in because it was through Golgotha.

You can't just excom people for the sake of excomming them, and you can't PK someone because they belong to another city. That's never been allowed, no matter you try to RP-spin it.

Mathonwy

Pretty much. It's only really fun for the person doing the excomming, and after the first time you see the message it's whatever. The rest is just schadenfreude.

Jacen

Atalkez said:

You are forgetting that "cause" was removed from the game. There are ways to hinder someone without actually PK'ing them.

If you have a legitimate RP to do something, you have a leg to stand on, regardless of if it goes against popular opinion.

You don't know if the RP is legitimate though. It's legitimate in your opinion, but perhaps not in the admin's opinion. Based on the fact that Transcendence is still in Occultism (presumably making non-Ashtani pact gain trivial), broad discrimination against non-Ashtani occultist pact gain, acted on through PKing said occultist or passively attacking said occultist through totems and such, likely won't be supported by the admin.

Trevize

Jacen said:

Atalkez said:

You are forgetting that "cause" was removed from the game. There are ways to hinder someone without actually PK'ing them.

If you have a legitimate RP to do something, you have a leg to stand on, regardless of if it goes against popular opinion.

You don't know if the RP is legitimate though. It's legitimate in your opinion, but perhaps not in the admin's opinion. Based on the fact that Transcendence is still in Occultism (presumably making non-Ashtani pact gain trivial), broad discrimination against non-Ashtani occultist pact gain, acted on through PKing said occultist or passively attacking said occultist through totems and such, likely won't be supported by the admin.

Considering the Chaos Lords grant pacts directly, it really becomes a matter of they will or won't. If they will, arguments that you shouldn't have them are moot. If they withdraw them and refuse more, arguments that you should have them are moot.

Most or all of this could be automated, to whatever extent the admin decide pacts should be permitted. (all that don't act against Chaos Lords, all that don't act against Ashtan/Babel, only citizens/Order members, etc)

Xinna

Yeah, I could see Occultist being factionalized, especially to the point of something like Chaos Lords will not pact with anyone who is an enemy of Ashtan (since the Chaos Lords and Ashtan now have written accords and are officially aligned). However, killing people for pacting is never going to be considered valid, reasonable pk.

Arditi

It could be hardcoded. However, it hasn't been and there's sadly no indication that it will be.

So, there's a choice that the newly official faction of Chaos has to make: Chaos can cater to special snowflakes who don't want to actually work to further the aims of Chaos and just want the utility, and/or tentacles.

Or Chaos can be an actual aligned faction, and encourage people using its skills to either do something productive or get off the pot.

Being excomm'd is rough. On the other hand, people who get/got excomm'd did something to deserve it. I'm not arguing for "excomm now, ask questions never". There would be a process and legitimate RP behind it, and I wouldn't try to push people over the line by, say, raiding Hashan and immediately excomm'ing any Occultist that defended.

The game has set a precedent in allowing Mhaldor, Targossas, and Eleusis the ability to remove the skills of people working against their faction's interests. Not allowing Chaos the same authority is, at best, an oversight. At worst, it's actively coddling one city in particular who only gave up aligned classes when they were forcibly recalled.

Taraus

Bluef said:

As much as it may add value to the realm's RP, there a significant problem with factionalizing classes as a whole though IMO. It's the same problem that exists with permaenemying:

Players, who have invested a lot of time and RL money in their characters, find themselves anathemitized from a class not because of their actions, per se, but because a clique of players controlling things at the time decide to RP that they should be.

That doesn't add value to the realm at all. It almost becomes a situation where such decisions must become outside the players' purview - which might actually be pretty cool because at least there would be some moderation on how things shake out (and legitimate roleplay/chances for players to make things right).

Speaking as a player who went through this (forced to make a choice about changing class based on factional stance), I don't agree with that sentiment, but rather, just the opposite. Does it force a player to make a difficult decision? Yes, it does, and it also solidifies the personality of a character in a way that little else can, and offers an opportunity to show, without question, 'this is what is important to me'.

I 100% support the notion of Occultist being a strict, factional-only class. All the obvious reasons for it already exist (class skills directly linked to the realm of One divine, a Plane intended for only those of the class, not to mention a shitload of lore/cannon that supports the anti-rogue mentality), and Ashtan now officially being the Seat of Chaos only supports it.

Achimrst

Arditi said:

It could be hardcoded. However, it hasn't been and there's sadly no indication that it will be.

So, there's a choice that the newly official faction of Chaos has to make: Chaos can cater to special snowflakes who don't want to actually work to further the aims of Chaos and just want the utility, and/or tentacles.

Or Chaos can be an actual aligned faction, and encourage people using its skills to either do something productive or get off the pot.

Being excomm'd is rough. On the other hand, people who get/got excomm'd did something to deserve it. I'm not arguing for "excomm now, ask questions never". There would be a process and legitimate RP behind it, and I wouldn't try to push people over the line by, say, raiding Hashan and immediately excomm'ing any Occultist that defended.

The game has set a precedent in allowing Mhaldor, Targossas, and Eleusis the ability to remove the skills of people working against their faction's interests. Not allowing Chaos the same authority is, at best, an oversight. At worst, it's actively coddling one city in particular who only gave up aligned classes when they were forcibly recalled.

When I was a Hashani Occultist, Ashtani Occultists killed me for lolz.

I vote everyone should embrace this measure for Ashtani Occultist excommunication. A vote for the chaotic treatment of a class dedicated to chaos is a vote in the right direction of the future of all things Occultist.