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Delete Veils

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  • KayeilKayeil Washington StateMember Posts: 2,824 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    There are some good non-veiled Marks...
    What doesn't kill you gives you exp.

  • AmranuAmranu Member Posts: 725 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    edited May 2015
    I don't have a veil.

    Let's be honest, this debate is basically veil owners vs. non-veil owners. The lack of admin responses is deafening and pretty much confirmation that this will not be considered. As much as I agree it's a dumb paywall, it's not going away.
    Austere
  • AustereAustere TennesseeMember Posts: 2,272 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Amranu said:
    I don't have a veil.

    Let's be honest, this debate is basically veil owners vs. non-veil owners. The lack of admin responses is deafening and pretty much confirmation that this will not be considered. As much as I agree it's a dumb paywall, it's not going away.
    I own a veil and I think they need to go away. ..I agree, though.  Divine obviously aren't commenting for a reason.  Time to let this thread die like the fifty other regarding the same subject.  
  • JarrodJarrod Member, Seafaring Liason Posts: 3,060 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I think the majority of veil users who've commented in this thread have stated they'd be fine with veils suddenly not existing, assuming we got a credit refund. Hell, I'd take introduction of veil-pierce-without-veil-shroud item if I could trade down and get 1000cr back.
    image
    Cascades of quicksilver light streak across the firmament as the celestial voice of Ourania intones, "Oh Jarrod..."

    AtalkezTitonus
  • JacenJacen Member Posts: 2,305 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I'm a veil owner and be fine with it getting deleted. With a decent refund, of course.
    image
    Halos
  • AtalkezAtalkez Member Posts: 5,024 @@ - Legendary Achaean

    I think this is a dead horse at this point. The consensus seems to be Veils suck, but are useful for the people who bought them. We need to add a city font to kill Veil while sanction is up.

    I can see an argument for Marks to bypass if you have a contract. $600 shouldn't make you impervious (without outside influences) to the retribution of a city/org due to a non-veil Mark getting the contract, imo.



    You hug Aurora compassionately.
    AedinTael
  • JulesJules Member Posts: 2,169 @ - Epic Achaean
    A lot really depends on how loudly the customer base clamors for it.  It might (or might not) be true that it's time to let this particular thread go, but if you just sit back and accept that veils will never go away, they most certainly will not.  
    Tael
  • AhmetAhmet Wherever I wanna beMember Posts: 3,370 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I haven't actually seen any 'Veils are a good thing' responses (correct me if I'm wrong).

    The best they've been is "Yeah, but it doesn't actually hurt anyone, so why not." type responses.

    TL;DR: Delete veils plox.
    Huh. Neat.
  • TitonusTitonus Youngstown, OhioMember Posts: 238 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    They don't have to be a good thing. They are what they are, and people got them for that reason. Can I live without a veil? Yeah. Would I mind living without a veil? I don't really care. But, I don't see saying, "Delete the artefacts that I don't like because they make things harder." as a valid reason to remove something that is ultimately serving it's purpose.

    Ethoas
  • AerekAerek East Tennessee, USAMember Posts: 1,818 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    That logic is just as flawed, though. "It is this way, therefore it should be this way" is not a valid reason for keeping something, either.

    Veils are fine as an artefact, but they do present a paywall that makes 2 important aspects of Achaean life unreasonably difficult:
    1. Marks fulfilling contracts, which is an Admin-sponsored method of IG problem resolution, and thus people shouldn't be able to "buy out" of that. Marks being able to see through Veils on their targets seems perfectly reasonable to me for this.
    2. Locating Veiled enemies inside your own city. Is this impossible to overcome? No, but we've all been in situations where we've been raided by a small group of Veiled A-list raiders, and haven't had a Veil of our own to find them. Trying to track a Veiled Serpent in your city, even with a Veil of your own, can feel like an exercise in futility. Once you set foot on enemy territory like that, they deserve a fair chance to find you and engage you. A font ability that disables Veils for a time seems perfectly reasonable to me for this.
    If solutions to these two issues can be resolved, then I don't think Veils need to go anywhere. Veils are fine most of the time, and a perfectly valid and desirable convenience for many, (like buckawns boots) they just shouldn't offer the level of immunity that they do in these particular cases.

    -- Grounded in but one perspective, what we perceive is an exaggeration of the truth.
    SynbiosAtalkez
  • KlendathuKlendathu Eye of the StormMember Posts: 3,178 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I still maintain that point 1 is a counter to (one of, if not the) primary reasons for veils to exist - making it more difficult to find you. You might say that if you do something to get a contract on you, you should be visible to take your punishment, but if that is so, why do contracts decay, giving the target an opportunity to escape? If just having a contract on someone negates their veil, then you might as well not have veils at all. Because of this, I disagree with this point.

    I do agree with point 2, there should be a way for cities to detect veiled raiders.

    Tharos, the Announcer of Delos shouts, "It's near the end of the egghunt and I still haven't figured out how to pronounce Clean-dat-hoo."
  • TitonusTitonus Youngstown, OhioMember Posts: 238 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    I'll agree with having either a font power or a city upgrade to detect veiled within the city. Remember that you can hire on someone for nothing, though. Which would mean, if I were veil-less, and I wanted to find @Rangor , all I would need to do is hire on him, and I find him, whether or not the contract is valid or not. That seems pretty shitty.

  • KlendathuKlendathu Eye of the StormMember Posts: 3,178 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Titonus said:
    I'll agree with having either a font power or a city upgrade to detect veiled within the city. Remember that you can hire on someone for nothing, though. Which would mean, if I were veil-less, and I wanted to find @Rangor , all I would need to do is hire on him, and I find him, whether or not the contract is valid or not. That seems pretty shitty.
    Not quite, the mark who took the contract would be able to find him, not you

    Tharos, the Announcer of Delos shouts, "It's near the end of the egghunt and I still haven't figured out how to pronounce Clean-dat-hoo."
  • TaelTael Member Posts: 1,197 @ - Epic Achaean
    edited May 2015
    How would people feel about the target of an aggressive action by a veiled person being able to pierce the veil and locate the attacker for 5 minutes as if they had a veil?

    That seems to get at the most fundamental problem here.

    Being veiled so people can't bother you seems more or less fine. Being veiled to sneak around seems acceptable. Being veiled to rob people doesn't seem like a big problem. In general, being veiled as a pre-emptive measure seems fine across the board. I don't even think that avoiding long-term consequences is a particularly big deal (though I do think marks could stand to have some way to see through them).

    The only big problem seems to be immunity to the immediate consequences of your actions. I haven't ever seen anyone expressing that being able to attack people and then avoid reprisal because they can't find you is okay.

    So why not just solve that problem directly? Veils would still be plenty useful. They'd still be just as useful in every situation except immediately after attacking someone. And even in a raid, even after you've engaged and attacked someone, we're only talking about one or two people you targeted being able to locate you for a few minutes, and only if your attack fails and leaves them alive.

    (To head off a rebuttal: yes, the veil-wearer could run away for five minutes after every attack. But if they're doing that, you've already hamstrung their ability to cause the sort of problems that make people dislike veils, and it's almost always possible to hunt someone down so long as you can tell where they are.)

    Functionally, it would just be an assurance that, after a veiled person attacks, someone can locate them even if you don't have a veiled person around on your side.

    And, while I'm sure some people would complain (some people always complain - particularly people who don't care about the change and are just looking for an excuse to trade in an artefact they no longer wanted anyway), I don't think such a change would even really necessitate a refund. Anyone who bought a veil specifically to avoid the short-term consequences of their aggressive actions probably shouldn't get a refund - in much the same way that if they made swords unable to kill newbies, I don't think people who complained that they wanted a refund on their artefact sword because they bought it specifically to kill newbies would be catered to. The stance of the admin and the game toward avoiding the consequences of your actions has always been pretty clear, even if there still remain ways to do it. Demanding a refund over this would be like saying "I bought this item specifically to affect the game in what is widely perceived to be a negative way and I can't anymore so I want a refund".
    Josoul
  • KyrraKyrra AustraliaMember Posts: 4,853 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Ethereal Shrouds.
    (D.M.A.): Cooper says, "Kyrra is either the most innocent person in the world, or the girl who uses the most innuendo seemingly unintentionally but really on purpose."

    TitonusAedin
  • BorranBorran Member Posts: 845 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    @Tael, I use my Veil as a precaution -all the time-, not just in 5 min spurts. If this were to be implemented, though, I wouldn't mind. However, I would like a refund, as I'm never the aggressor as the veil-wearer so its function would no longer help me.

  • TitonusTitonus Youngstown, OhioMember Posts: 238 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    it's the other way around, @Borran. You would only be visible to the person you attacked for 5 minutes, and then go back to being veiled.

    Tael
  • AepasAepas Member Posts: 1,619 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I'm really tired of this veil discussion. Let's talk about something else instead.

    Anyone noticed that annoying nearly impossible to hinder movement called evade?
    can we delete that instead? You all can keep your fancy veils.
    Replies the scorpion: "It's my nature..."
  • AerekAerek East Tennessee, USAMember Posts: 1,818 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited May 2015
    Klendathu said:
    I still maintain that point 1 is a counter to (one of, if not the) primary reasons for veils to exist - making it more difficult to find you. You might say that if you do something to get a contract on you, you should be visible to take your punishment, but if that is so, why do contracts decay, giving the target an opportunity to escape? If just having a contract on someone negates their veil, then you might as well not have veils at all. Because of this, I disagree with this point.
    Contracts do decay, yes, but only while the Mark has a chance of reaching you, which is why they don't decay when you sit safe in your city or out at sea. Issue being, if a non-Veiled Mark that has a contract on you can't ever find you, (Or only through unreasonable difficulty, for nitpickers, constantly spamming a Veiled friend with "Locate Bob?") then you're never really in danger, even while your contract is decaying, and that's not really fair to the person who hired on you, (Let's assume the contract was legitimate) or to the Mark who's reputation now depends on completing that contract.

    Now, the recent Mark change has ameliorated this to an extent, as Marks can now choose the targets they want to take, and thus non-Veiled Marks can just try their best to avoid Veiled targets, leaving them for other, Veiled Marks. But the problem remains that a majority of contracts taken out are going to be on "big" targets who will have Veils, and so in order to be a "good" Mark, you essentially must own a Veil. I don't think that's the worst injustice in the world, since almost all good Marks are likely to have some artefacts on them, and thus have a higher probability of affording a Veil, but I still don't think it's fair or good that there's arguably a 2000cr entrance fee to become a respectable Mark.

    Kyrra said:
    Ethereal Shrouds.
    These do exist, and I think they're good for special occasions, but I don't think they're an adequate solution for either of the outlined problems. It's not reasonable to buy a Shroud every time you get raided by a Veiled team, or every time a Mark needs to take a contract on a Veiled target. These things happen far too commonly for a one-off 50cr solution to be practical.

    Edit:
    Tael said:
    How would people feel about the target of an aggressive action by a veiled person being able to pierce the veil and locate the attacker for 5 minutes as if they had a veil?
    I actually wouldn't suggest this, as this comes closer to Klendathu's concern of "if Veils don't make me hard to find, why have a Veil?" I think it's perfectly fair to pay 2000cr and be difficult for the playerbase at large to locate. It's only Marks, who exist as part of the Admin-designed system through which the players police themselves, who need to be able to cut through Veils like that. during raids, where fair conflict depends on being able to find the other guys, where Veils should be addressed.

    There is nothing wrong with the Veil's intended function, it's only an a problem when that function defeats other systems' intended functions, and Marks and raids are the only times I really see that happening.
    -- Grounded in but one perspective, what we perceive is an exaggeration of the truth.
  • AmranuAmranu Member Posts: 725 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Marks still can't choose target. They don't learn the target until after taking a contract.
  • HeroseHerose Nova Scotia, CanadaMember Posts: 89 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited May 2015
    I think Ivory Marks can see the target before choosing and the reason for the contract.  Quisalis Marks can only see the city the target is a part of and the bounty.

    Edit: Achilles corrected me below.  Neither can see the target.
  • KandraKandra Member Posts: 189 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    edited May 2015
    What if a contract on you wouldn't decay as long as you're wearing your veil?

    Not that I agree about veils being stupid, just that if it's a huge issue for contracts, it can be adjusted for.
  • AchillesAchilles Los AngelesMember Posts: 2,538 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Herose said:
    I think Ivory Marks can see the target before choosing and the reason for the contract.  Quisalis Marks can only see the city the target is a part of and the bounty.
    Can't see the target, only the reason for the contract and which city they belong to
    image
  • JulesJules Member Posts: 2,169 @ - Epic Achaean
    edited May 2015
    I'm not going to address why people don't like veil mechanics (or really, "mechanic") because it's already been well-established throughout the thread that people very much dislike it.  

    Again, I don't own a veil, but I actually do think it's unfair to veil owners to just nerf this particular artifact, rather than deleting it and giving credit refunds (which most of them will probably spend on flower pots).  We've sort of touched on it throughout the thread, but the innate nature of veils means that veil owners have already seen the value of their purchase decline significantly as more people have bought veils.  People intuitively understand this, and that's why they've repeatedly shot down cheaper artifacts that would allow others to pierce veils - which other people want because people hate veils...

    So yeah, the more people who own veils, the less effective they are.  To a large extent, veils have already been very heavily nerfed, just through purchases, because that is just how veils work (and yet another reason they are awful, really).  Yes, you could argue that this is true about a lot of artifacts - but not in quite the same way as is the case with veils.  An interesting contrast that is sort of the other side of the coin is the aural earring that allows you to hear shouts.  No one purchases that artifact... because no one has purchased that artifact.  If THAT were a commonly purchased artifact, its value would actually increase (and yells and shouts would be relevant again) - but enough people would have to buy it first.  

    EDIT:  this is even true with people who have bought veils just to be able to locate people really, because it actually becomes "welp, who's going to take the 2K credit hit so we can locate those raiding a-holes".   Really, it's even more true for them.  
  • AerekAerek East Tennessee, USAMember Posts: 1,818 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Amranu said:
    Marks still can't choose target. They don't learn the target until after taking a contract.
    Ah, I misunderstood the new contract board. Then yes, Veils still present a major hurdle to being a decent Mark, and the effectiveness and public confidence in the Mark system.
    -- Grounded in but one perspective, what we perceive is an exaggeration of the truth.
  • KlendathuKlendathu Eye of the StormMember Posts: 3,178 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Damn, @Jules, I was going to agree with your entire post until you brought up aural earrings :(

    Tharos, the Announcer of Delos shouts, "It's near the end of the egghunt and I still haven't figured out how to pronounce Clean-dat-hoo."
  • AntoniusAntonius Member Posts: 4,920 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Plenty of people own aural earrings, it's not like it costs a lot. Shouts aren't relevant because people don't generally have anything worthwhile to say that needs to be broadcast to the entire world.
  • JulesJules Member Posts: 2,169 @ - Epic Achaean
    "..."

    Just forget the aural earrings if it's too much of a distractor - although, not so long ago there was an entire Golden Dais discussion about aural earrings that pretty much centers around their chilling effect on the use of shouts:  http://forums.achaea.com/discussion/2835/aural-earring-lets-change-it-finally/p1

    ... bottom line though, if I were a veil owner who's disillusioned with veils, I'd keep pushing for deletion, and as a non veil owner, I'd also keep pushing for deletion, because the underlying idea of veils is ridiculous in the first place and almost everyone seems to be on the same page there. 
  • KlendathuKlendathu Eye of the StormMember Posts: 3,178 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Jules said:
    ... bottom line though, if I were a veil owner who's disillusioned with veils, I'd keep pushing for deletion, and as a non veil owner, I'd also keep pushing for deletion, because the underlying idea of veils is ridiculous in the first place and almost everyone seems to be on the same page there. 
    It really isn't. Veils make you harder to find, and can only be countered by another veil wearer. Does exactly what I want it to do, else I wouldn't have (10 RL years ago) bought one for my character.

    As you have alluded to, there are other artefacts that get the hackles of the baying forum masses up, perhaps not to the extreme of veils, but where do we stop once we've started down the path of "delete all the things"? Not the flowerpots, think of the flowerpots!

    Tharos, the Announcer of Delos shouts, "It's near the end of the egghunt and I still haven't figured out how to pronounce Clean-dat-hoo."
    Brean
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