Delete Veils

Kayeil

I have actually spent money on Achaea, but any person who loves hunting and frequently does so doesn't find it difficult to save up credits. It takes slightly longer now with the gold nerfs that were put in. You'd be surprised how many in Achaea are capable of hunting like that, and how doable it actually is. It just seems difficult to the average hunter, or the frequent number of people who hate hunting and can't stand to keep up with it for very long.

Klendathu

I hunt for credits. I spent quite a bit on Achaea when I first started playing. Now I have more important things to spend my money on (kids, mortgage, etc). If I want more shiny artefacts, I have to hunt them up. I enjoy hunting, don't mind the tiny xp losses from dying (really, so small now than they were 10 years ago). Klendathu already has a hood (used to have a veil, swapped it for the hood), but have other artefacts on my want list.

tl;dr - not everyone hates hunting, 2000 cr isn't hard to bash up if you're motivated, veils aren't a capstone artefact

Jules

Klendathu said:

 veils aren't a capstone artefact

It's flower pots, isn't it  

Vakvyr

 2000 cr isn't hard to bash up if you're motivated

That is a hell of a lot of motivation. 12mil gold average, nbd. Maybe only ~6-8mil gold if tons of city/house sales.

Blujixapug

Klendathu said:

It's not "unfun to grind up 2000 credits" for everyone though, some people enjoy the PvE elements. I've already done the "grinding" to dragon, I have no real reason to continue PvE other than I enjoy it. Getting the gold to buy credits from the market to buy more artefacts is additional motivation.

Realistically, it is completely implausible for most players to do that. Even obsessive players who play for hours a day on a regular basis will take a long time to get half of that cost. And the more people who try, the harder it becomes for them all, as credits on the market and org credits are in limited supply.

If I had 2k credits I would much rather spend them on something cool and fun, like literally any other artifact, customisations, a pet, a house, a ship with a casino etc.

Antonius said:

I'd be ok with veils being deleted if there were some new artefacts introduced at the same time for me to spend the credits on. As it is, I'd rather have Veils and the accompanying complaints than another 2000 bound credits with nothing exciting to spend them on.

This is the best argument I see. Sarapis needs to finance his $1500 a day Faberge egg habit and mysterious business trips to Holland, so they need something else important and highly desirable to replace this 2000cr item. Like an in-game CCG.

Borran

Delete Off-plane places, too. I can't find people anymore. I thought this was a social game.

Titonus

It took me about 3 weeks to bash up 2 million gold to buy my boat...I don't see how a veil is something so far out of reach if it is something you set your mind to getting.

Veils are fine.

Anaria

Jules said:

although I do take issue with people who make it a point to "not buy credits", both because it seems incredibly cheap/petty and because it boggles me that anyone would place so little value on their time.  It's one thing to recognize your current financial limitations and spend responsibly, it's another to have some weird personal agenda of not financially supporting a game you like.  

I am supporting Achaea just by playing here. People who grind out their credits through in-game methods are donating their time to the game in the form of their presence. A big part of what makes any game successful is having a sufficiently large player base to make it fun and viable. Look at the endless graveyard of deserted muds on Mudconnector to see what I'm talking about.

If you were to remove all the free-to-play players, the viability and fun of the game would drop drastically for those who chose to invest large amounts of money into it.

The more fun the game is both for the subscribers AND for the free-to-play's, the more revenue IRE will generate and the more FTP's will chose to become subscribers. It is a delicate economic balancing act. Favour one side to much, and you will lose the other. Lose one, and you will eventually lose both.

Rip

If you want to play and romp around with the veil/gem owners...you buy a veil and gem.  It's that simple.   Once you own a veil..it's like they don't exist.   If you can't get your hands on these items...then you need to find some friends with a veil.  - What I find interesting is the people that want this artifact to go are the people that don't own them.  I bought my veil and gem for 450$ on sale about two years ago.  The only reason for this was so I could sense Bonko.  - I don't think deleting items or changing how they operate is the answer.  If the garden changes how veils work I want a FULL cash refund.  - when I buy an "artifact"...it's exactly that. An artifact.  Something rare....

Jules

Anaria said:

Jules said:

although I do take issue with people who make it a point to "not buy credits", both because it seems incredibly cheap/petty and because it boggles me that anyone would place so little value on their time.  It's one thing to recognize your current financial limitations and spend responsibly, it's another to have some weird personal agenda of not financially supporting a game you like.  

I am supporting Achaea just by playing here. People who grind out their credits through in-game methods are donating their time to the game in the form of their presence. A big part of what makes any game successful is having a sufficiently large player base to make it fun and viable. Look at the endless graveyard of deserted muds on Mudconnector to see what I'm talking about.

If you were to remove all the free-to-play players, the viability and fun of the game would drop drastically for those who chose to invest large amounts of money into it.

The more fun the game is both for the subscribers AND for the free-to-play's, the more revenue IRE will generate and the more FTP's will chose to become subscribers. It is a delicate economic balancing act. Favour one side to much, and you will lose the other. Lose one, and you will eventually lose both.

Anaria, this is why the first part of my quote (which you clipped off) said what it did.  I have always been a staunch advocate of making it reasonable for people who don't buy many credits (or maybe not even ANY credits for a good while) to feel like they can enjoy the game too.  For one, we are all FTP to start, and IRE has to convince us it's worth our while to stick around and spend money.  

For another (and this is the part I often advocate for) people who buy fewer credits are frankly often also people who are around a LOT and can be good for GM type duties, and also just tend to make better service providers in general, because they have the time and motivation to do that.  

But - the people I am talking about in the part you quoted absolutely exist, and they really do have exactly that attitude.  Honestly, I just couldn't help but think about that kind of attitude when people are talking about bashing for a 2000 credit artifact, and not just any 2000 credit artifact, but the kind of 2000 credit artifact that is usually bought after you already have fully transed skills and a pile of other artifacts.  But yes, Achaea, and all of IRE's other games too, are FTP and a lot of people have managed to enjoy the game with minimal financial investment.  

Andregor

We whine a lot. We should stop whining.

Taraza

Artefacts are one of those things that you do not necessarily have to have to enjoy the game or aspects of the game overall. They exists sure, do I have a veil? Yes, but for multiple reasons. One of which to not be bothered constantly, particularly while I was aiming to get dragon. Artefacts are simply those prized and extras that you -can- purchase, you absolutely do not have to. Think of it this way. In real life, you have cars and you have sports cars, no one is forcing you to save and spend the extra amount on sports cars and features that you do not necessarily need to get from point A to point B. 

It's a game, but it's also a business that provides players with different features and ways to have bonuses and features for their character. It is up to the player -themselves- whether or not they want to drop X amount of money for an artefact or not.  

Or spend time hunting, questing, saving in game with credits and buy house/city credits for different artefacts to help boost themselves. Does it help? It can, sure. But are they absolutely necessary? No. 

Artefacts are fine overall. What really comes down to Achaea is your enjoyment for the game. 

Karai

I was a staunch advocate  fordeleting veils when I didn't have one because you had an entire city that couldn't locate a group of invaders and they were free to wander the city at their leisure; if not delete them then allow for city defenses to deactivate veils for a time or something to counteract them. My sole purpose for buying one was to alleviate that. Mindnet, mind sense (which is far better/faster than other sensing) and fullsense make me an awesome security system. Now that I own a veil that was purchased purely IG through grinding, I still wouldn't mind if they were deleted but a better change would be if city defenses for short periods of time could deactivate veils or if a veiled-user attacks someone, the veil is deactivated against that person for a short time. Those were my favorite and most balanced ideas that took care of pretty much all concerns. More people have veils now which makes it less painful and crippling. Hashan has three? Two that are very active. For a city with fewer artefacts per capita and overall it makes me feel less nervous.

Aktillum

Anaria said:

I am supporting Achaea just by playing here. People who grind out their credits through in-game methods are donating their time to the game in the form of their presence.

Yes, and I support bands I like by pirating their music. Me enjoying their CD for free should be payment enough for their hard work. If I really like them, maybe I'll buy a t-shirt. But not from an official merch store, I'll buy a screen-printed knockoff. Then I'm doing the band a favour by advertising them, and other people might buy their music.

(Im totally kidding, I see and agree with your argument, I just couldn't help making the comparison. Achaea would feel lonely if all the free players suddenly disappeared)

Jules

I like Kayeil's idea in the sense that it addresses a problem created by veils, but I think the main argument against veils is that they bring little to no value to the game.  They are literally something that is put in place only so that you need to buy one too.  Then, the more people who have them, the more meaningless they are (as indicated by the many "just ask a friend who has a veil" posts).  The argument against them is that they don't add much to the game experience (and in many ways, tend to be a detractor), and they do so for a very high pricetag.  

Aktillum

I'd be down with deleting veils if they added some more misc artes with useful PvP utility, none of that flowerpot / bag of sharing crap (sorry, flowerpot owners).

@Jules is right that the usefulness of veils is dictated by how many people own them, and I think they briefly flirted with the idea a Tier 2 veil that couldn't be located by veil-owners, but I can't remember when they did that. Maybe it was in a dream.

Jules

Didn't Profit have the super veil?  Which is hilarious, because it really completes the "6-minute" abs nature of veils (and probably buckawns) so perfectly.

Kayeil

Jules said:

I like Kayeil's idea in the sense that it addresses a problem created by veils, but I think the main argument against veils is that they bring little to no value to the game.  They are literally something that is put in place only so that you need to buy one too.  Then, the more people who have them, the more meaningless they are (as indicated by the many "just ask a friend who has a veil" posts).  The argument against them is that they don't add much to the game experience (and in many ways, tend to be a detractor), and they do so for a very high pricetag.  

Do you mean Karai's idea? I don't believe that's the only purpose to the existence of veils. Plenty of us veil owners have given our reasons for getting them, and those reasons aren't just because other people have them.

Jules

Oh.  Yes!  Ha, sorry.  Karai, not Kayeil.  

Katzchen

I think the real artefact we need to discuss deleting right now is @Jhui. Delete Jhui. Much more annoying than veils.

(Kidding. Off to go gag that line :pleased: )

Kayeil

@Sarapis, can you please settle this thread and please please say we're not losing our veils? 

Dortheron

Karai said:

I was a staunch advocate  fordeleting veils when I didn't have one because you had an entire city that couldn't locate a group of invaders and they were free to wander the city at their leisure; if not delete them then allow for city defenses to deactivate veils for a time or something to counteract them.... I still wouldn't mind if they were deleted but a better change would be if city defenses for short periods of time could deactivate veils or if a veiled-user attacks someone, the veil is deactivated against that person for a short time.

Make it so that Disrupt in Alchemy renders veils "weakened" to everyone in the bubble as well as disrupt communications. What is "weakened"? Make it so that it has a higher cost (eq, mana, etc) to "pierce the veil" if both people are in the bubble of the disruption.

How it works:

• Bob has a veil, John and Jane doesn't.
  
• Jane, as an Alchemist, Disrupts Northreach and sits there.
  
• Bob enters Northreach; Jane is now able to see him at a higher cost while John killing undead in Azdun can't.
• John enters Northreach; now John and Jane can see Bob at the higher cost.
  
• Bob leaves Northreach; his veil is back to full strength and he can no longer be seen except by another veil user.
• Disruption doesn't discriminate. If John had a veil as well, Jane could see John and Bob if they were both in Northreach, even if John is an ally and Bob is an enemy.
  

What's the point? Veil users has an advantage in raiding and other area combat. Disrupt is used as a tool to contain or limit the communication between people in and out of an area. This change would make it so that:

1. Veils lose some of their power in raids, at the cost of coordination between multiple parties in different areas
   
2. Veils retain their power in 1v1, ganking, or hiding situations, as you have to disrupt an area first. Veil users can still see other users regardless of this, only fighting with disrupt changes
3. The Disruption does not discriminate between who set up the disrupt, so raiders can see veiled defenders as well
4. Non-veil users can see them, but the higher cost can mean dying if they do it at a bad time.
   

I doubt this idea would be implemented and even if it was, probably wouldn't be used. Sounds cool but still veils would still be bought to counter veils, if just for the fact that you would need an Alchemist to use it and that's not always an option.

Borran

^And Eleusis is just out of luck for not choosing Alchemists when the class was first introduced. Sucks to be a citizen there. Especially if you own a veil.

Katzchen

Borran said:

^And Eleusis is just out of luck for not choosing Alchemists when the class was first introduced. Sucks to be a citizen there. Especially if you own a veil.

@Eleusis, just find a friend with a veil. You'll be fine!

Karai

Eleusis has forest defs by association. Once Hashan can bathe NIthmia in darkness to strip grove powers and things like rites of dawn and causing extreme vitamin d deficiencies that only @Amranu, @Kasa and @Draqoom can correct ( wink wink ) then no complaints

EDIT: I prefer my ideas. A font power and/or the attacking letting the person being attacked to sense their assailant for a short time.

Dortheron

Borran said:

^And Eleusis is just out of luck for not choosing Alchemists when the class was first introduced. Sucks to be a citizen there. Especially if you own a veil.

3 classes vs 1 everyone else gets. Eleusis wins even without veil weakening

Vakvyr

For the people wanting to avoid attention, I think a gem is all that is really necessary. You don't show up on any "murder me now" lists. If they don't know to look for you, they won't look for you.

If a hardcoded change is necessary, convert Veil into an artefact that gives HIDE and can't be penetrated by lifevision or any other ql-assist. Between gem and that alteration of veil, you are really fucking hidden while bashing.

Klendathu

Gem doesn't hide you from all lists - SPARWHO, RPWHO, OWHO, HWHO, CWHO, etc. OK, so the last three are unlikely to be used by people hunting for you, but the others could be. Veils also prevent you being detected by fullsense and mindnet, unless the monk also has a veil.

Mishgul

Veils are unnecessary. They are convenient for lazy people or lazy stalkers. I have had 0 problems finding anyone I have needed to find since trading in my veil. There is always a way.

Sarathai

Klendathu said:

Gem doesn't hide you from all lists - SPARWHO, RPWHO, OWHO, HWHO, CWHO, etc. OK, so the last three are unlikely to be used by people hunting for you, but the others could be. Veils also prevent you being detected by fullsense and mindnet, unless the monk also has a veil.

In theory, I suppose the idea is that if you're actively looking for spars or RP, you're probably not going to be hiding.