Delete Veils

Hellen

Dortheron said:

Make it so that Disrupt in Alchemy renders veils "weakened" to everyone in the bubble as well as disrupt communications. What is "weakened"? Make it so that it has a higher cost (eq, mana, etc) to "pierce the veil" if both people are in the bubble of the disruption.

How it works:

• Bob has a veil, John and Jane doesn't.
  
• Jane, as an Alchemist, Disrupts Northreach and sits there.
  
• Bob enters Northreach; Jane is now able to see him at a higher cost while John killing undead in Azdun can't.
• John enters Northreach; now John and Jane can see Bob at the higher cost.
  
• Bob leaves Northreach; his veil is back to full strength and he can no longer be seen except by another veil user.
• Disruption doesn't discriminate. If John had a veil as well, Jane could see John and Bob if they were both in Northreach, even if John is an ally and Bob is an enemy.
  

What's the point? Veil users has an advantage in raiding and other area combat. Disrupt is used as a tool to contain or limit the communication between people in and out of an area. This change would make it so that:

1. Veils lose some of their power in raids, at the cost of coordination between multiple parties in different areas
   
2. Veils retain their power in 1v1, ganking, or hiding situations, as you have to disrupt an area first. Veil users can still see other users regardless of this, only fighting with disrupt changes
3. The Disruption does not discriminate between who set up the disrupt, so raiders can see veiled defenders as well
4. Non-veil users can see them, but the higher cost can mean dying if they do it at a bad time.
   

I doubt this idea would be implemented and even if it was, probably wouldn't be used. Sounds cool but still veils would still be bought to counter veils, if just for the fact that you would need an Alchemist to use it and that's not always an option.

Interesting concept, and adding that might make the short amount of time the skill is active useful. The problem with disrupt really lies more with the cooldown time, in my opinion.

I'm still of the opinion that a city improvement to counter the veil would be better, unfortunately.

Aktillum

A city improvement to counter veils would be nice, if it only worked if they were inside your city.

Tharvis

Aktillum said:

A city improvement to counter veils would be nice, if it only worked if they were inside your city.

a bit like that Orb of Confinement that stops atavian/eagle wings and is hardly ever used?
Would require a decent upkeep too

Aktillum

Tharvis said:

Aktillum said:

A city improvement to counter veils would be nice, if it only worked if they were inside your city.

a bit like that Orb of Confinement that stops atavian/eagle wings and is hardly ever used?
Would require a decent upkeep too

yeah, exactly. make it available, but expensive to upkeep, and people will forget to turn it on anyways.

Tharvis

Aktillum said:

Tharvis said:

Aktillum said:

A city improvement to counter veils would be nice, if it only worked if they were inside your city.

a bit like that Orb of Confinement that stops atavian/eagle wings and is hardly ever used?
Would require a decent upkeep too

yeah, exactly. make it available, but expensive to upkeep, and people will forget to turn it on anyways.

or they'll forget to turn it off and drown in the full upkeep costs!

Klendathu

If they go, they go, I can think of other things I could spend the 2k credits on, but how long before they become the next Talisman of Binding?

Antonius

Jules said:

That said, Antonius, this is like when I got refunded for my hammer, and, not thinking, asked "what am I going to do with all of these extra credits though" :P  

I have thought about it, though. At length. More than once. The list of artefacts I still have to buy is very uninspiring until multiclass is released and I can start buying artefacts for new classes or they release new artefacts that are in some way useful for Paladin.

Kayeil

What was the Talisman of Binding?

Antonius

@Kayeil Temporary use, had to recharge, blocked earring use in the room. It was another artefact you would have had to buy to counter earrings before they added the wind-up.

Kayeil

Oh. That would suck. I don't think the veil is quite as bad as that. I've found my veil useful in various scenarios, still never bought it to track other people. Gonna be stubborn and say I still want to keep it!

Jules

Antonius said:

Jules said:

That said, Antonius, this is like when I got refunded for my hammer, and, not thinking, asked "what am I going to do with all of these extra credits though" :P  

I have thought about it, though. At length. More than once. The list of artefacts I still have to buy is very uninspiring until multiclass is released and I can start buying artefacts for new classes or they release new artefacts that are in some way useful for Paladin.

Oh I agree, Antonius, and that's what I mean by it being sort of "mad money" for most people who would get refunds.  That's sort of the good and bad here.  It's good because it's not really going to impact your spending behavior in a major way (because you've already bought staggering amounts of credits over the years, most likely).  If it did, that could feel like a hit to IRE, at least in the short term - although, I think they've taken short term hits like that if it was worth it in the long run.  It's also (sort of) bad for you because unless you're the sort of person who's happy to sit on a pile of credits until something you deem to be at least sort of worth buying comes along (like me), it could be mildly annoying?  But... if I read your post correctly earlier in the thread, you're not super excited about veils as an artifact, and wouldn't miss them too much if they went away.  And hey, pile of credits.  Complete your flower pot collection!  

Krypton

People have shelled out 2000cr just to be left alone? My God, Krypton achieved the same desired effect by being a bitch, and the cost of that was FREE.

Dortheron

Krypton said:

People have shelled out 2000cr just to be left alone? My God, Krypton achieved the same desired effect by being a bitch, and the cost of that was FREE.

There's a difference between "I don't want to talk to people" and "People don't want to talk to me"

Kross

Ehh... Everyone is making such a huge stink about veils, but ignore 90% of other things that are nearly exactly like this.

As @Jhui said, a 1000cr artefact maybe that, instead of hiding you, allowed you to sense/farsee/scry/whatever veiled individuals but not be hidden by anyone without may be a good option, but...

No one treats ships this way. You can practically account for over 200 ships in Achaea, and out of those 200 ships, you could likely find 4 on the water at any given time there was not an event. Ships are cheaper privacy than beds, so beds and ships are essentially worthless and should be refunded too?

*GASP* How could you say that Kross, I like to fish on my ship and I use my bed much like a journal to think of the work of Plato and Socrates.

Well, I use my hood/veil for that. Normally, I don't wear my hood at all and only do what @Rom posted - sendAll(("wear hood"),("mind sense "..target.."),("remove hood")). But, when I don't want to be bothered or would prefer not to be found easily, I wear the damn hood. Then, only other veiled people and non-peasants can find me, send me gifts through veildeliver or otherwise.

I know, I know, that's purely horrific for you all that want to be mark so badly but wouldn't be able to find the playerbase that is also mark and wears hoods/veils to avoid being jumped, but it's been said numerous time that the only person that would really affect would be a Rogue assassin/champion that had no friends (And that's @Santar and he already has a veil, so why would he need friends to find you for him?)

TLDR; Ships are expensive but used for privacy, beds are expensive but used for privacy, some people use hoods/veils for the same reason, deleting an artefact that makes IRE a ton of money while providing another challenge to individuals to overcome is not likely.

Synbios

Well, you can't raid or jump someone in mainland while you're in a ship, so...

Alaskar

Synbios said:

Well, you can't raid or jump someone in mainland while you're in a ship, so...

Well, that's only one teeny-tiny, inconsequential difference. 

edit: WTF, where is the rolleyes guy?

Caladbolg

Kross said:

Ehh... Everyone is making such a huge stink about veils, but ignore 90% of other things that are nearly exactly like this.

As @Jhui said, a 1000cr artefact maybe that, instead of hiding you, allowed you to sense/farsee/scry/whatever veiled individuals but not be hidden by anyone without may be a good option, but...

No one treats ships this way. You can practically account for over 200 ships in Achaea, and out of those 200 ships, you could likely find 4 on the water at any given time there was not an event. Ships are cheaper privacy than beds, so beds and ships are essentially worthless and should be refunded too?

*GASP* How could you say that Kross, I like to fish on my ship and I use my bed much like a journal to think of the work of Plato and Socrates.

Well, I use my hood/veil for that. Normally, I don't wear my hood at all and only do what @Rom posted - sendAll(("wear hood"),("mind sense "..target.."),("remove hood")). But, when I don't want to be bothered or would prefer not to be found easily, I wear the damn hood. Then, only other veiled people and non-peasants can find me, send me gifts through veildeliver or otherwise.

I know, I know, that's purely horrific for you all that want to be mark so badly but wouldn't be able to find the playerbase that is also mark and wears hoods/veils to avoid being jumped, but it's been said numerous time that the only person that would really affect would be a Rogue assassin/champion that had no friends (And that's @Santar and he already has a veil, so why would he need friends to find you for him?)

TLDR; Ships are expensive but used for privacy, beds are expensive but used for privacy, some people use hoods/veils for the same reason, deleting an artefact that makes IRE a ton of money while providing another challenge to individuals to overcome is not likely.

I think you missed the whole Veils cost to much money and are to annoying to deal with for people who don't have veils. and the only reasonable way for someone to get a veil is to spend the  amount of money you did for a veil argument.

But I have friends to find people for me. So could careless, Although reading this forum explains to me why I could never find Darkender when I went to try to kill him a few months back. Didn't think he had a veil >.< 

Xith

Gold grinding or no gold grinding, the artifact serves to negate every otherwise useful sensing ability in the game UNLESS you also join the Veil Club. 

For or people who can't or won't buy a veil (since I'd rather have an Artie that actually affects my combat instead of keeps me out of it), it obstructs:
- area defense or assault (raids)
- tracking someone you want to kill
- evading someone who wants to kill you

In a PvP environment, where all of these are likely or sought after for anyone who Transed enough skills to fight, why would you expect every person interested in combat to make that investment just because some can?

I don't feel that everyone deserves this. Real evasion should be limited to serpents, for whom avoiding detection makes sense. I feel that since theft nerfs and infiltration nerfs, the covert ability of serpents is near-inert. 

That being said, returning serpents to their former annoying selves in the wake of multi-class might not be best. Hard-coded Espionage could be made into its own skillset learnable by any adventurer, with the penalty of being permanently Infamous while in possession of that trait. 

tl;dr - Paying for perks is fine, but this perk is too much of a buzzkill. 

Borran

Actually, reading through this has made me want to trade mine in... but I won't just in case they do refund veils.

Borran

Daeir said:

I'd be very proud of them if they did a full refund and nixed the artefact from the game, but they won't.

Don't say that- I'm sure people said that about Torc too.

I do think they need to be careful when deleting artefacts. If they make it a trend that they delete powerful artefacts, people will stop buying credits for fear that their stuff may just get deleted in the next patch.

Titonus

You do realize, there are people who've intentionally invested nearly $600 into an artefact that will for all intents and purposes, hide them from the general population for whatever that reason may be, right? And it performs as it was intended to. Are there combat implications, yeah. But, they aren't new, and people have learned to live with and deal with that aspect of the game. It's already been discussed, ways for people without veils to circumvent their lack of a the artefact. You don't have to have a veil to get around veil. It's really that simple.  

Mishgul

Basically I just want to highlight that veils are really useless at doing anything except alienating you from actual newbies (which is fine if that is what you want). 

One day I might spend 2000cr again so I can alienate myself from newbies.

Greys

Plus all those times:

(Targossas):Veiled citymate says, "Enemy at me."
<sense citymate, no luck>
(Targossas):Greys says, "Where are you?"
<citymate deathsight>

Sarathai

Greys said:

Plus all those times:

(Targossas):Veiled citymate says, "Enemy at me."
<sense citymate, no luck>
(Targossas):Greys says, "Where are you?"
<citymate deathsight>

It's kind of their own fault for not taking off their veil before they ask for help.

Cooper

There is a system to allow you to bypass allied veils.

Should be able to get through a veil if you have a contract on someone.

Could potentially add a font power to remove veil effect.

Otherwise veils are fine.

Klendathu

I don't see why those people with a contract on an individual should be able to see through their veil, isn't being difficult to find one of the primary purposes of the veil?

Font power seems a good idea for cities.

Cooper

Yes, but having a $600 veil should not be a requirement to be a mark. And it pretty much is unless you want to be a shitty mark.

Austere

Cooper said:

Yes, but having a $600 veil should not be a requirement to be a mark. And it pretty much is unless you want to be a shitty mark.

Down with the veils(will leave it active until someone pisses me of with it):

^loca (/w+)
send("tell austere locate "..matches[2])

Kayeil

There are some good non-veiled Marks...

Amranu

I don't have a veil.

Let's be honest, this debate is basically veil owners vs. non-veil owners. The lack of admin responses is deafening and pretty much confirmation that this will not be considered. As much as I agree it's a dumb paywall, it's not going away.