So I leave for a weekend concert series, and I can't be a priest in Cyrene anymore?

Makaela

Deladan said:

If it makes anyone feel better I want to play an infernal in eleusis... and I know that will never everrrrrrrrrrrrrr happen. 

you could for all of the few seconds it takes you to class change then a fellow commune mate to do cwho. Until they do that you can be an infernal in Eleusis all you want. Well or until Mhaldor goes wtf mate Anathema.  Just stay dragon form no one will notice!

Nim

It might if they surrender to Evil finally!

I can almost stomach Cyrene not getting a factional class, except half the cities have at least two, with the new knights making it feel closer to five even if runewardens can replicate some of that, and no neutrality or flourishing playerbase argument makes sense to keep Hashan from getting their own, which means to me it's blatantly wrong that less than five cities have cool toys that match their city's fluff, and thus why exactly leave out Cyrene?

Not to mention, the reason for not adding more classes is primarily balancing effort costs, but knights functionally added nine new possible configurations to balance, so what's up with that argument now?

Silas

I think the primary reason for not adding new classes is that it requires a -significant- amount of admin time and attention to design and implement the class, and then to balance that class in terms of the current PK landscape. Look at how long it actually took for us to get new Knights, alchemists, magi and forestals.

Nim

That's certainly a reason for them not to happen often, but if it outright prohibited the creation of new classes, we could have just had one style of knight rather than four. I don't mean to imply it should happen overnight, just that it ought to be on the table at all.

Sena

In order for Cyrene or Hashan to have an exclusive class, that class almost necessarily* has to rely on something that someone (it doesn't have to be a god) controls access to. Every factional class right now works that way. Aurora and Deucalion (and previously the various Good gods) can completely cut off anyone's access to devotion, Sartan can cut off anyone's (or any mortal's) ability to gather life essence, the gods of nature and nature itself can refuse to let forestals use it. More tenuously, Golgotha can control access to the Chaos Plane and cut off someone's ability to make pacts with the Chaos Lords (tenuous because there's no fundamental tie to Ashtan, and occultists aren't prevented from fighting against Ashtan, Babel, or the Occultists house), and cities can only make proper use of alchemy with the assistance of the Cauda Pavonis (or at the very least, they needed the help of the Cauda Pavonis to gain access to alchemists in the first place).

How would bards or runewardens be restricted to Cyrene without it being a completely arbitrary and OOC restriction? Even if, theoretically, Scarlatti could remove someone's ability to create harmonics or Phaestus could make the earth reject someone's runes and totems, neither of those gods have the kind of inherent tie with Cyrene that the three theocratic cities (Eleusis may not be entirely theocratic, but it's close enough for this argument) have with their gods/classes, and they don't have the kind of exclusive tie that Golgotha or the Cauda Pavonis have. It would take a huge change in Scarlatti's or Phaestus's ideals/personality (plus a change in Cyrene itself) for them to restrict bards or runewardens to a single city, even a city that they have close ties to. I couldn't even see them punishing people for directly attacking Cyrene. And Hashan has even less grounds than that for any existing class to become exclusively theirs.

So to have a Cyrene-only or Hashan-only class, there are three ways it can happen: A new class is created explicitly for that purpose, relying on some source of power that Cyrene/Hashan (or someone with exclusive ties to Cyrene/Hashan) exclusively controls access to; an existing class gets a significant overhaul that for some reason involves being forced to use some source of power controlled by Cyrene/Hashan; some divine that can reasonably be justified as having that sort of control over a current neutral class somehow becomes exclusively tied to Cyrene/Hashan and decides not to let anyone else have access

*The alternative is for the class to be faction-exclusive not because that faction doesn't let anyone else have it, but because nobody else actually wants/allows it. This is mostly how occultists work; they're primarily an Ashtani class because other cities consider them a threat, not because Golgotha particularly cares whether or not an occultist joins Targossas. This is extremely unlikely to work as a way of giving Cyrene an exclusive class, because I can't think of anything that Cyrene would want that other factions would be strongly opposed to having. I could see it working for Hashan if Twilight makes himself more of an enemy to the rest of the world (it doesn't have to be everyone, just half the cities rejecting a Twilight-associated class would make them as factional as occultists are, and Targossas would almost certainly reject it), and if a class becomes more strongly associated with Twilight (it shouldn't be hard for him to come up with a scheme to cause that).

Jules

Forgot to mention, for the "leverage" to work, the other factions would need to be able to damage totems of course...

That said, I take it all back.  Giving Cyrene totems actually might be a really terrible idea, and here's why:  let's just say that the other cities destroy/disable each other's totems and decide "you know, this ain't so bad" (which I can easily see happening).  Then, they all say "well, screw Cyrene, we do what we want anyway".  And then, Cyrene not only gets attacked regularly, but we also get lectured ad nauseam about how we "have totems, but still can't win" (to which we're like, "we know, what is your point")?

EDIT:  the upside for a lot of people would be that it might very well be pretty much the end of totems, especially totems as an "every single gd room, including the entire subdivision" kind of defense.

Bronislav

Jules said:

And then, Cyrene not only gets attacked regularly, but we also get lectured ad nauseam about how we "have totems, but still can't win"

And then, Cyrene not only gets attacked regularly, but we also get lectured

Cyrene not only gets attacked regularly

Cyrene gets attacked regularly

Have you seen our Army lately? I'll grant you, our stance toward raiding has largely been, "Screw off, go away, we aren't interested". Cyrene, as a city, has zero interest in stomping over to another city and caving their faces in. But the only difference between Cyrene and the Zerg is that we lack the experience and the drive to deliberately screw with other cities - and the former is very easily remedied:

Spawn more overlords.

Makaela

I forsee an Dark future for Cyrene. Twilight will get Jealous that of both Neutral cities it is not his that has all the people and he will cast a curse causing all Cyrenians to turn into led.. oh wait he already tried this on a global scale....

Just continue about your business. We must await the next deceptively fun plot of Lord Twilight's. By deceptively fun I mean one that we get to foil yet again.

Krypton

Sena said:

*The alternative is for the class to be faction-exclusive not because that faction doesn't let anyone else have it, but because nobody else actually wants/allows it. This is extremely unlikely to work as a way of giving Cyrene an exclusive class, because I can't think of anything that Cyrene would want that other factions would be strongly opposed to having.

A bureaucrat class, with an entire skill dedicated to making every facet of their enemies' lives -- from talking to walking, from hunting to combat -- miserable, convoluted, and subject to seven layers of oversight.

Kayeil

I still think it's silly that some people think shaman should become Hashan's factional class. Most shamans, especially the ones that have been shamans the longest and are the most devoted to the class, are not Hashani. Not to mention, if you look at our spiritlore abilities we use skills from a variety of classes, including infernal, priest, sentinel, etc. I'd consider us more of a neutral class than anything. I haven't seen or heard anything anywhere that we are so tied to any Divine or faction that we're going to lose some of our skills if we don't RP a certain way.

Ayami

It's true Hashan has less of a population than Cyrene (by a lot), but Hashan's been in a transitory period for a long time, so it's hard to tell. If they end up being factionally Dark, then they could probably justify having an exclusive class. I really see no reason to ever give Cyrene one.

Jules

Bronislav said:

Jules said:

And then, Cyrene not only gets attacked regularly, but we also get lectured ad nauseam about how we "have totems, but still can't win"

And then, Cyrene not only gets attacked regularly, but we also get lectured

Cyrene not only gets attacked regularly

Cyrene gets attacked regularly

Have you seen our Army lately? I'll grant you, our stance toward raiding has largely been, "Screw off, go away, we aren't interested". Cyrene, as a city, has zero interest in stomping over to another city and caving their faces in. But the only difference between Cyrene and the Zerg is that we lack the experience and the drive to deliberately screw with other cities - and the former is very easily remedied:

Spawn more overlords.

I honestly don't totally understand what this post means... Are you saying Cyrene should go militant?  I don't think it's a good idea under the current system (because I think we'd tend to mostly end up a succulent XP hog for the other cities to slaughter).  I'd be all for it if that weren't the case.  If we ever do it, we do need to make it a total conversion though.  Nothing would be worse than a half militant, half isolationist/neutral-good org. 

Our Army is great, but we're not currently, and haven't been a PK focused org, so yeah, people led and trained by A-team (or similarly accomplished core leadership) are going to tend to kick our ass.  I hope you didn't think I was insulting our defense force or something (again, not totally sure what you're getting at). 

Anyway, my only point in that post was that I realized having the super totem monopoly might not be all it's cracked up to be, and could actually bite us squarely in the ass.

Sarapis

Just to save you guys the time, there is not a chance that we'd take an existing class and make it factional, and it's also pretty unlikely, though not impossible, that we'd introduce new factional classes. Certainly not in the forseeable future in any case.

Tesha

Wait hold up @Sarapis, if there's a recall of shamans and runewardens, that means no more totem wars. Could you reconsider please?

Bronislav

Jules said:

Bronislav said:

Jules said:

And then, Cyrene not only gets attacked regularly, but we also get lectured ad nauseam about how we "have totems, but still can't win"

And then, Cyrene not only gets attacked regularly, but we also get lectured

Cyrene not only gets attacked regularly

Cyrene gets attacked regularly

Have you seen our Army lately? I'll grant you, our stance toward raiding has largely been, "Screw off, go away, we aren't interested". Cyrene, as a city, has zero interest in stomping over to another city and caving their faces in. But the only difference between Cyrene and the Zerg is that we lack the experience and the drive to deliberately screw with other cities - and the former is very easily remedied:

Spawn more overlords.

I honestly don't totally understand what this post means... Are you saying Cyrene should go militant?  I don't think it's a good idea under the current system (because I think we'd tend to mostly end up a succulent XP hog for the other cities to slaughter).  I'd be all for it if that weren't the case.  If we ever do it, we do need to make it a total conversion though.  Nothing would be worse than a half militant, half isolationist/neutral-good org. 

Our Army is great, but we're not currently, and haven't been a PK focused org, so yeah, people led and trained by A-team (or similarly accomplished core leadership) are going to tend to kick our ass.  I hope you didn't think I was insulting our defense force or something (again, not totally sure what you're getting at). 

Anyway, my only point in that post was that I realized having the super totem monopoly might not be all it's cracked up to be, and could actually bite us squarely in the ass.

..No, I'm not implying that Cyrene will be, or should ever be, a militant city. I'm implying that, usually, Cyrene isn't worth the trouble to raid because of numerical superiority and the fact that we don't rightly care about making things fun for an attacking city. The only reasons why we aren't routinely slaughtering people en masse is because we lack the experience (comes from being a "leave us alone" city with non-coms) and the drive (we really don't care what other cities are doing as long as they aren't rubbing our rhubarb). We are the metaphorical sleeping giant - which is why I'm really not terribly concerned about the prospect of Cyrene being raided on the regular, and why your comment of, "they have totems, but they still can't win" is a little perplexing.

Ayami

I wouldn't go so far as to call Cyrene a sleeping giant, experience in the conflict-driven cities proves that numerical advantage only goes so far.

Melodie

There was a time, back when Metzger was the leader of the Wardens mostly, where Cyrene was actually quite feared. This was also the days of Shiro and Goryllin(? maybe) hunting down thieves to where they stopped bothering Cyrene because they didn't want their shit pushed in all the time. I think Verrucht did this as well? Fuzzy memory is fuzzy.

Metzger is back and playing and hanging around in Cyrene.

Coincidence? I think not.

Get ready to get rekt.

Jules

Ah, well, I think we're mostly on the same page then Bronislav, although I do agree with Ayami that calling us a sleeping giant might be pushing it.  That said, if a few things were different, and, in addition, we had even a few top tier people leading and training us, you'd probably be right, and our numbers would really matter.  We have a large population, and as some have noted, Cyrenians are inexplicably artied out.  At the same time, we do have some people who have some skill (because we do get some victories), and I do understand they put in a lot of work to make sure we have some sort of defense force, so I don't want to trample toes on that account, but I also want to be realistic, I guess.  Anyway, totem monopolies are off the table in any case. 

Aerek

Glad to hear that Runewarden or Bards won't be factionalized. Those are kinda necessary for every faction to cover their bases strategically. Don't really think Cyrene or Hashan need factional classes, but I won't say no to new toys if they ever happened.

Bronislav said:

...But the only difference between Cyrene and the Zerg is that we lack the experience and the drive to deliberately screw with other cities - and the former is very easily remedied:

Spawn more overlords.

This was accurate enough to necessitate an avatar shift. Bring your Ashtani Archon strike teams and your Mhaldorian marauders with their siege tanks, our swarm of non-coms and half-coms will blot out the sun.

At least until I forget that they can't follow me into the sewers.

Kandra

Plenty of respect for everybody's thoughts here but I really want to say that I hope the return of any number of respected former leaders won't undermine all the hard work every single member of Cyrene's army has been putting in to bolster the city's defense. To attribute that to the presence of specific people could be rather belittling. /forumrp

Skye

Sarapis said:

Just to save you guys the time, there is not a chance that we'd take an existing class and make it factional, and it's also pretty unlikely, though not impossible, that we'd introduce new factional classes. Certainly not in the forseeable future in any case.

Aww damn it and here I thought of Cyrene having an event where they recall all their Runelore-hoodoo back to Cyrene as part of some ritual to empower the city's natural defences. It causes all the totems outside of Cyrene to explode in a shower of splinters that accidentally kill some newbies and turns Cyrene into a giant safe room. Except the arena cause magic.

Multon

Skye said:

Sarapis said:

Just to save you guys the time, there is not a chance that we'd take an existing class and make it factional, and it's also pretty unlikely, though not impossible, that we'd introduce new factional classes. Certainly not in the forseeable future in any case.

Aww damn it and here I thought of Cyrene having an event where they recall all their Runelore-hoodoo back to Cyrene as part of some ritual to empower the city's natural defences. It causes all the totems outside of Cyrene to explode in a shower of splinters that accidentally kill some newbies and turns Cyrene into a giant safe room. Except the arena cause magic.

I do not approve of this notion.

Also... slightly off topic, but I've always wondered @Skye why the picture in your signature is of an anthropomorphic cat drowning its young in a barrel? I always notice it...

Skye

I wanted a picture of a kitten in a barrel but mostly all I found was kittens in buckets. 

Multon

Skye said:

I wanted a picture of a kitten in a barrel but mostly all I found was kittens in buckets. 

Yeah, normally they drown them in bags, but that means you can't actually see the kitten... I see the issue.

Skye

...You do realise these entire forums are like, ooc and you don't have to RP your evil Mhaldor persona here all the time right?

Multon

Oh... right...

Multon

Sorry for the rudeness, sometimes when I play at the same time as I am browsing the forums my fingers move a bit faster than my brain. My bad.

Aminah

Tael said:

@Aminah: I don't understand why you (and, especially, others) have kept insisting that it isn't made clear anywhere that the new Good text overrides the old. The entire Good faction of the game understands this. The old Good gods are literally dead. The new Good gods have made it clear that their stuff supercedes the old at every possible juncture. This is rammed down the throats of anyone who so much as looks at Targossas. It's the first thing drilled into every novice's head, both by the elder players and by the actual, built-in, mechanical tasks for the city. It's the first point in just about every single player-written book on Good in Targossas's library. There were several news posts about it when the change happened, and it gets reiterated in Public news posts all the time. You seem to be unhappy that they haven't made it clearer, but I'm honestly not sure how they could possibly have made it clearer without actually retconning all the old stuff out, which is completely antithetical to the central concept of the game.

I understand that you are new and you are frustrated that you didn't happen to run into any of these things. That's totally reasonable. But to continue to insist that no one could possibly have known when people keep explaining that most people could have known very easily seems sort of silly.

I didn't know about the difference in the texts. It's simply not obvious to a new player like myself. And yes, that's even with me reading materials of Targossas' library. And messaging the Deacon. And talking to others.

If it's because I'm dumb or something, so be it - You can keep blaming a novice for this mistake, but sadly it's not my fault. It's the fault of the playerbase. It's not right, and I'm going to keep repeating it no matter how much you lash out and rehash the mythos and events that I first read literally 3 weeks ago. (I don't even know what it means for them to be dead. I was so surprised that Lorielan was around since she was supposed to be banished, to my understanding, perpetually)

The truth is, even if I bitch about it OOC, it's a great source of RP for all of us to enjoy and dig into.

Krypton

Lorielan was forgiven and unprisoned long ago -- in 236 AF. That predates almost 100% of current actively players, and yet that has still become common knowledge for all of us...

I admit Achaean record-keeping has not been so prolific in the most recent era, in which the Citadel --> Bal'met --> Targossas all came to pass, but you can still glean a great deal of understanding and background from sources like http://www.achaea.com/chronological-order and the Achaean Wiki.

Kakotas

Itkovian said:

Aktillum said:

Faction-tied classes are meant to pigeonhole your character RP into a specific alignment (Good, Evil, Chaos, Nature). It might make some sense for Hashan to have a Darkness-themed class unique to them, gaining powers from Twilight's shadow realm or something, where it would make sense for you to be able to be cut off from those powers. For Cyrene, however, they're sort of filling Hashan's old role (total neutrality) and I can't think of a justifiable reason for them to have a faction-specific class.

I mean, what would be the grounds for cutting off someone's Runelore or Harmonics? "Sorry, you're not RPing a neutral bureaucrat hard enough. Please sign the dotted line and a representative will serve you your class severance papers in 6 - 8 business weeks".

Just a nitpick: Cyrene is not about Total Neutrality. Let's not confuse isolationism for something it isn't. We still have values we care about (Culture, Arts, Independence, Honour, etc.).

So, grounds for cutting off whatever factional skill would be many: not living by the ethics of Cyrene, or otherwise taking action against Cyrene or aiding Cyrene's enemies.

Though personally I think faction classes should generally involve direct incentives to get engaged in world conflict, which unlikely for Cyrene (unless conflict comes to it). That's not to say Cyrenians can't get involved in PvP at large (I certainly intend to), but full on conflict is unlikely. And since factional classes seem to be used to encourage conflict, I'm not sure if it'd be appropriate for Cyrene (never mind the other issues mentioned in my previous post).

Honestly I could see Honor becoming a core tenet. Definitely if Runewarden is decided as the main factional class. This would allow some really interesting RP to develop as well...


Additionally has someone checked is it a full moon... Silas and I are agreeing on something even something as drastic as a runelore recall. I feel like I'm about to turn into a wolf or the dwarves kegs went empty again...

Last but not least... @Draekar come we must drink and find rings and bonk something on the head to knight it or perhaps add sunbeams.... @Synbios are you down with this?