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Comments
That said, I'll agree that bashing up through the 80s is painful, assuming you're in that bracket.
- With sharp, crackling tones, Kyrra tells you, "The ladies must love you immensely."
- (Eleusian Ranger Techs): Savira says, "Most of the hard stuff seem to have this built in code like: If adventurer_hitting_me = "Sarathai" then send("terminate and selfdestruct")."
- Makarios says, "Serve well and perish."
- Xaden says, "Xaden confirmed scrub 2017."
That's not even something you can convince me of. I play roguelikes where death means losing everything, but roguelikes are fun to play in a way that is very opposite to what bashing in Achaea is.
First would be everyone will be constantly fighting and very little roleplay will be involved and it'd just come down to primarily PvP which eventually people will get bored of just constant PvP and move elsewhere.
Secondly would be no one would really go into as the only benefit at this point would be just to flex your e-peen more or less. Which would just result in more RP potentially as the PvP side would just as mentioned for flavor.
Third would be everyone is happy not so much a Bloodbath's happening around sapience and still promote a healthy dose of RP.
I'm all in favor of really xp staying the same. I think the majority of the reasons not many people flock to PvP would be there's often huge gap differences to basically you have to climb which results in generally either you have to know combat theory perfectly and/or invest a lot of money into artefacts just to attempt to be on somewhat level with someone vastly experienced. Also knowing how to code also benefits greatly and I know many myself included are at times scripting challenged and can only manage simple tasks.
TL;DR:
There's very steep curve for someone to get into combat both financally, knowledge and time invested. Sadly not everyone is going to go for it no matter what way you stick the carrot...
My two cents on the matter..
Also been thinking about this a bit more, as others have said dying as dragon doesn't mean much. So if exp loss from pvp was gone entirely, then people would most likely be getting dragon in the speed as serpents with lupines from pvp. which honestly doesn't seem that high.
That said, I think the proper solution would be able to largely mitigate that risk. While something like totally removing experience loss might encourage people to fight all the time because they have nothing to lose, some sort of middle ground could likely preserve the feeling of loss as discouragement for this.
For instance, a solution that sped up the rate of experience regain would still allow for a tangible feeling of loss, while making the reality of the situation not nearly as painful. By not creating a huge increase in leveling from pvp, it likely wouldn't dramatically change the fabric of the game, rather encourage a certain subset of players to be more involved in group combat.
Ultimately, the point is that experience loss is a barrier for a certain subset of players, and keeping it exactly how it is will keep players who would otherwise participate in game dynamics from doing so. I find it hard to believe that there's no change that could be made that would at least help in alleviating this problem without risking doom upon everyone. After all, the risk you brought up was that people would be more encouraged to pvp, but the entire premise of this thread was that doing exactly that would be, to a certain degree a good thing.
- With sharp, crackling tones, Kyrra tells you, "The ladies must love you immensely."
- (Eleusian Ranger Techs): Savira says, "Most of the hard stuff seem to have this built in code like: If adventurer_hitting_me = "Sarathai" then send("terminate and selfdestruct")."
- Makarios says, "Serve well and perish."
- Xaden says, "Xaden confirmed scrub 2017."
Difference #2 is that one death could be the result of a five minute fight, but cost thirty minutes to recover.
Difference #3 is that PvP is opt-in, while the choice for recovering EXP is hunting or being really good at PvP (or a class with a high chance of scoring group combat kills).
Also, there's more to PvP than raids.
Album of Bluef during her time in Achaea
Technically I think Dragons -still- lose more experience than I do on a death but on the other hand with massive crits it means less when they can clear through something that takes me ages to clear through.
Fun is, in fact, a vital consideration. A lot of people find PvP boring or dumb, but PvE does not (except in very limited circumstances) require them to engage in PvP, yet the reverse is undeniable.
You also just listed three things that aren't raids. Duels are also still a thing, as is sparring and other arena games. As a Cyrenian, I get to spar a lot compared to raiding. Also, don't forget that arena matches are how people can win credits through being good at combat.
I'm considering it from an overall perspective that, generally speaking, I lose more EXP than I gain, so it's not a per-fight thing but an overall trend. Of course, this is sort of guaranteed to happen to someone, since PvP is not a zero-sum experience game, but an overall loss of EXP.
Duels are completely opt-in. Sparring and arena games don't in any way impact XP, which is what we were discussing.
As I already mentioned, PVP does not require you to engage in PVE beyond a certain point. There are lots of fighters who gain levels beyond a base (for the health pool) primarily off PVP. If you want to PVP and push well beyond that base, then you're going to have to either kill a lot of people or hunt. If making it so that's easier for you is the goal, then the thread title should be changed to "Lowering the barriers to dragon," as your argument against XP loss doesn't have anything to do with actually entering PvP; it has to do with people being deterred by something (XP loss) they shouldn't be and allowing that to impact their willingness to enter into situations that result in combat.
Album of Bluef during her time in Achaea
However, Penwize is level 136. The next-highest is level 123 or so. Below that it drops really fast. Jhui is #5 and level 116. Klendathu is #15 and 110. Just from #1 to #5 is a huge nosedive. From there, the levels continue to drop, and fast.
While I can't speak for everybody above 100, the dragons start at #297 and go down to #222. The dragon lords start at #221 and go down to #143. So of the 297 active dragons, more than half of them are "normal" dragons in terms of health gain from levels (arties will throw things out, obviously). And from there going up, it's another nosedive (there are only forty at 101st).
Basically, I don't think the health difference in super-high-level dragons should matter for the majority of PvP.
- With sharp, crackling tones, Kyrra tells you, "The ladies must love you immensely."
- (Eleusian Ranger Techs): Savira says, "Most of the hard stuff seem to have this built in code like: If adventurer_hitting_me = "Sarathai" then send("terminate and selfdestruct")."
- Makarios says, "Serve well and perish."
- Xaden says, "Xaden confirmed scrub 2017."
I am going out on a limb and saying these people can also afford to play for more than an hour or two a day and play during peak times. Another barrier to PvP that is directly tied to xp loss is playtime. No one who plays through a busy schedule is going to be bothered to partake in PvP if their time is actually valuable to them. You cannot argue that they can just bash it back if they are going to be taking part in PvP then have to sleep for work or have other commitments such as kids Or school.
I notice a lot of people quit achaea for school or family. I believe that it is because we force them to by not allowing achaea to have a casual experience by arguing that the boring and menial parts of Achaea are necessary. it seems rather obvious to me.
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One of the symptoms of an approaching nervous breakdown is the belief that one's work is terribly important
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One of the symptoms of an approaching nervous breakdown is the belief that one's work is terribly important
Personally, I'm ambivalent about the whole situation. Keep XP loss, reduce it, increase it, whatever. It seems to me that those people moaning that "it's not fair, it's too hard, wah wah wah" will find some other reason to carry on complaining one way or the other.
To be fair though when you have people like going to just throw out assumptions here, Jacen who is currently level 95 assuming aiming for dragon who would like to get into pvp related things but he's facing off against the Mighty Van Helsings, (Me and Draqoom) and is almost certain to die. He loses experience and the alternative here is to A bring a large group with him, B die and lose hours of boring work or C make his city look weak and like cowards because the guy doesn't want to give up 5 hours of bashing fighting people who can't really do anything but stand there and go HA HA! if you don't attack them.
Destroyed rooms can be fixed, Guards can be re-hired, 5 hours of bashing is alot of boring work.
and honestly I'd say some of these others who are trying to get to dragon also would prefer not to fight the Mighty Van Helsings, when the risk of dying is pretty huge and the bashing is a harsh consequence for just wanting to defend your city. and while yes sanctioned raids eliminate the loss of exp for non marks, it does take a few deaths that cost exp to get there.
While I still think that if we remove experience death from pvp the world will be over populated with dragons, but then again it's ALREADY over populated with dragons, it's just like a reward for doing a mind numbing service (no offense penwize since you seem to like it alot)
However, I think a change that might help with this would be for city deaths against players to make your experience loss none all the time (unless mark) and kills inside cities to give no experience.
On the other hand, I really got into pvp when I was in shallam and I happened to kill a dragon and get 6 levels off it. Was like being a car salesman who sells his first car and is hooked on it. just some things to consider.
Pretty much, We can keep things the way they are now, Turn pvp exp into something along the exp rates of serpent lupine snipers or, something along the lines in the above way.
Also for the record if dying in pvp didn't give exp loss I would be happy, I have a.. .8ish kdr and maybe in the 12ish years on and off playing this game i'd actually get to be a dragon.
That one aside, how can you argue that xp loss is meaningful and then say that you are ambivalent to it. I assumed that something being meaningful implies that you would not be ambivalent about it. Unless the definition of meaningful changed recently, as I am assuming meaningful means something that people care about.
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One of the symptoms of an approaching nervous breakdown is the belief that one's work is terribly important
Ambivalence doesn't mean not having any feelings at all. Ambivalence is a state of having simultaneous conflicting reactions, beliefs, or feelings towards some object or issue.
What kind of meaning does XP loss give to dying? What do you expect people to learn from losing XP, that they could not learn from simply dying?
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One of the symptoms of an approaching nervous breakdown is the belief that one's work is terribly important
I can't answer your second question.
There are penalties to death currently, beyond losing xp. Losing xp just happens to be another penalty. Being not alive is not a useful state of being for one. When you die you the lose time that you spent up to being dead trying not to be dead. You may have lost resources such as curatives, essence and whatever else you may have used to try not to be dead up until you died. If you do not have someone to rezz for you, you lose the time spent dead that you could be using to play the game. Even if you have someone to rezz you, you will still be wasting a fair amount of time not being alive.
That is a lot of negative effects on your gameplay already.
The people who do not care about these things, and the people who like/do not care/are ambivalent towards XP loss are all pretty involved in PvP already. If you are talking about lowering the barrier to PvP, then XP loss, in my opinion, is the next biggest barrier in terms of getting people who play the game on a more casual basis involved.
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One of the symptoms of an approaching nervous breakdown is the belief that one's work is terribly important
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One of the symptoms of an approaching nervous breakdown is the belief that one's work is terribly important