Feedback: Knight changes

Jules

Antonius said:

Cynlael said:

Weapons are all standardised. The speed/damage that Rurin sells are going to be the norm when the changes go live, according to Big T. (or Makarios... Forget who I mentioned it to)

aka: Forging not going to be very profitable in the Anarchaea state, since armour is likely to follow with the standardising.

Forging for most people isn't particularly profitable now, anyway.

That said, having set stats doesn't have to mean that forging is less profitable, it could mean that forging is much more profitable. That's all up to the players who have forging; they could collectively agree that the price for a rapier is now 20,000 gold - which means they're going to make 20,000 gold (maybe minus cost of commodities - call it 19,000 gold profit at hugely overpriced steel) for about two minutes of hitting FORGE.

Unfortunately, the reality is that - as with pretty much every other tradeskill - some people are going to be willing to sell their time for next to nothing. There will be plenty of people that go "Well, a rapier only takes 5 steel and two minutes to forge, so I'll do it for you at cost." and totally destroy any chance anybody has of making a profit, because now that 20,000 gold seems hugely unreasonable.

I am so thankful that probability is going to be completely gone from weapons, and it sounds like they'll be taking away our stat enhancing runes as well, which, as nice as they were for those of us who had them, just can't have been helpful to the cause of balanced stats.  This really makes my day.  As for the profitability of forging, I really hope they make forging completely unappealing for credit whores like me, as I've mentioned before.  That, more than anything else I can think of, will give people some chance to make a profit at it.  So, hopefully, there won't be any perks with forging that would be appealing to someone who wasn't learning the craft purely to provide a service (hopefully for some reasonable, yet profitable fee)!  So, no forging equivalent of the extra tattoo slots you get when you learn tattoos, for example.  No perks!  That will help a fair bit, although there will still be people who want to be "good guys" who will learn the trade for the heck of it, but there will be fewer of them if the trade offers no perks.  I like having people who around who are doing a business, because when they get to make a profit, I generally have more reliable access to services, and unless things got wildly out of hand, I doubt we'd end up paying highway robbery rates.    

Exelethril

Did anyone happen to record all the level 3 weapon stats from the test server?

Cynlael

Soulpiercer was 242 speed... That's all I remember. I think Longsword was somewhere around 190-ish? They weren't in the help file, you had to go straight to the arti shop to see the adjusted values.

@Makarios?

Cynlael

Darklyre said:

Aelios said:

I hashed out everything except dual blunt, which I still think is a joke. 2H is way strong, and so is S&B. Both have their benefits without a doubt.

Imagine dual blunt - with a blunt penetration icon.

Even without the icon, though, I imagine dual blunt might be nice for infernals (since you can aim each whirl separately, you can double-break like monks can). Plus, that parry negation - might be nice since BMs are now able to parry while prone.

Dual blunt is pretty much a 100% guaranteed vivisect if you time everything properly... If they get through the extremely small window where they can avoid it, which would likely be due to ping, they'll just die to assault + the following double whirls onto torso. Unless they're rocking around the 8k+ health margin. Unartied, a lot of people would die to the DW that prones them, without needing the assault... I was testing on a 4.8k health Sylvan with 69 blunt chainmail, and they were dropping down to about ~900 health by the time I vivisected.

Parry negation isn't as worth it as you might think. Not if you're planning to assault them, at least. Momentum caps at 6 (I think that's what the dualblunt thingy is called... Ferocity is SnB) Expending takes 1 (needed for proning / parry negation), Assault takes 5. I think that's something Makarios was going to look into. I guess you could DW break one arm with expend, DW break the other to regain momentum, and DW break both legs+prone them, but they can just walk out on the arm break.

Makarios

Momentum caps at 8, just for reference.

The reason for those costs is to prevent assault/assault back to back. If you want to double assault you'd need to assault/hit (probably a damaged limb for the higher damage modifier) then assault again.

Kenway

@Exelethril‌ if I remember right.

Dreadblade : Didn't look like it changed so 222/180/149
Scimitar : 70/180/243

Didn't look at the others.

Aelios

Jules said:

Antonius said:

Cynlael said:

Weapons are all standardised. The speed/damage that Rurin sells are going to be the norm when the changes go live, according to Big T. (or Makarios... Forget who I mentioned it to)

aka: Forging not going to be very profitable in the Anarchaea state, since armour is likely to follow with the standardising.

Forging for most people isn't particularly profitable now, anyway.

That said, having set stats doesn't have to mean that forging is less profitable, it could mean that forging is much more profitable. That's all up to the players who have forging; they could collectively agree that the price for a rapier is now 20,000 gold - which means they're going to make 20,000 gold (maybe minus cost of commodities - call it 19,000 gold profit at hugely overpriced steel) for about two minutes of hitting FORGE.

Unfortunately, the reality is that - as with pretty much every other tradeskill - some people are going to be willing to sell their time for next to nothing. There will be plenty of people that go "Well, a rapier only takes 5 steel and two minutes to forge, so I'll do it for you at cost." and totally destroy any chance anybody has of making a profit, because now that 20,000 gold seems hugely unreasonable.

I am so thankful that probability is going to be completely gone from weapons, and it sounds like they'll be taking away our stat enhancing runes as well, which, as nice as they were for those of us who had them, just can't have been helpful to the cause of balanced stats.  This really makes my day.  As for the profitability of forging, I really hope they make forging completely unappealing for credit whores like me, as I've mentioned before.  That, more than anything else I can think of, will give people some chance to make a profit at it.  So, hopefully, there won't be any perks with forging that would be appealing to someone who wasn't learning the craft purely to provide a service (hopefully for some reasonable, yet profitable fee)!  So, no forging equivalent of the extra tattoo slots you get when you learn tattoos, for example.  No perks!  That will help a fair bit, although there will still be people who want to be "good guys" who will learn the trade for the heck of it, but there will be fewer of them if the trade offers no perks.  I like having people who around who are doing a business, because when they get to make a profit, I generally have more reliable access to services, and unless things got wildly out of hand, I doubt we'd end up paying highway robbery rates.    

As a forging shop owner, screw you too!

Davio

broadsword175015                     165     180    170       n/a

longsword179544                      130     180    200       n/a

warhammer62266 a Hellforge Hammer      Dmg: 200;  To-hit: 165;  Spd: 160

bastard7098 a Dreadblade bastard sword Dmg: 222;  To-hit: 180;  Spd: 149

did not test any others, but tested those and had them still saved

Jules

Aelios said:

Jules said:

Antonius said:

Cynlael said:

Weapons are all standardised. The speed/damage that Rurin sells are going to be the norm when the changes go live, according to Big T. (or Makarios... Forget who I mentioned it to)

aka: Forging not going to be very profitable in the Anarchaea state, since armour is likely to follow with the standardising.

Forging for most people isn't particularly profitable now, anyway.

That said, having set stats doesn't have to mean that forging is less profitable, it could mean that forging is much more profitable. That's all up to the players who have forging; they could collectively agree that the price for a rapier is now 20,000 gold - which means they're going to make 20,000 gold (maybe minus cost of commodities - call it 19,000 gold profit at hugely overpriced steel) for about two minutes of hitting FORGE.

Unfortunately, the reality is that - as with pretty much every other tradeskill - some people are going to be willing to sell their time for next to nothing. There will be plenty of people that go "Well, a rapier only takes 5 steel and two minutes to forge, so I'll do it for you at cost." and totally destroy any chance anybody has of making a profit, because now that 20,000 gold seems hugely unreasonable.

I am so thankful that probability is going to be completely gone from weapons, and it sounds like they'll be taking away our stat enhancing runes as well, which, as nice as they were for those of us who had them, just can't have been helpful to the cause of balanced stats.  This really makes my day.  As for the profitability of forging, I really hope they make forging completely unappealing for credit whores like me, as I've mentioned before.  That, more than anything else I can think of, will give people some chance to make a profit at it.  So, hopefully, there won't be any perks with forging that would be appealing to someone who wasn't learning the craft purely to provide a service (hopefully for some reasonable, yet profitable fee)!  So, no forging equivalent of the extra tattoo slots you get when you learn tattoos, for example.  No perks!  That will help a fair bit, although there will still be people who want to be "good guys" who will learn the trade for the heck of it, but there will be fewer of them if the trade offers no perks.  I like having people who around who are doing a business, because when they get to make a profit, I generally have more reliable access to services, and unless things got wildly out of hand, I doubt we'd end up paying highway robbery rates.    

As a forging shop owner, screw you too!

We'll have to see how it plays out, but I can definitely say that I value convenience.  If I know someone carries a good selection of seafaring goods, I have their store on my short list.  Same with enchanted goods.  Not to say I'd never hire out and pay a forger under the new system.  Well-stocked shops and craftsmen for hire both seem desirable so long as people are actually making some meaningful gold from their expensive trade skill.  If it really does make shops that carry a good selection of forged goods economically unviable, I'd actually be sad, and would hope admin would take a look, because it removes ready access to a good I think we'll all still very much care about, and which we're hoping will be *more* accessible.    

Aerek

Weapon stats are my primary concern above all others. If we're moving to a system where every forged scimitar has stats of 58/150-something/225, Runewardens will be able to compensate, (assuming weapon runes are staying? They didn't work on the test server) but Paladins and Infernals will be forced to buy level 2 artefacts just to compete. @Tecton and @Makarios have never really led us wrong before, so I have faith and can't believe that's actually what the future holds, but their posts do seem to imply that's the direction we're headed. @Jhui made a controversial but pretty accurate statement in the other thread: "If you can't get 235+, why would you fight at all?". Some final clarification on that would put my troubled mind at ease.

Exelethril

I think 70-ish/150/227 should be base, 58 is way too low.

Sena

The announce post on the test server said weapon runes and augmentations would be repurposed.

Kenway

And if Runies -don't- get weapon runes then I'm curious what they'll get as compensation as that's currently pretty much all they have on the other two knight classes. On the one hand Infernal/Paladin have Gravehands/Piety keeping you in the room for two-handers and the extra speed would help Runies even that out. On the other, no one wants 80/190/253 wielding dual cutting runies. Nobody. I do trust the admin and the ACC but damn if I'm not curious as all hell.

Tecton

Weapon runes will provide new effects, but won't modify the base statistics on the weapons any longer.

Aelios

Tecton said:

Weapon runes will provide new effects, but won't modify the base statistics on the weapons any longer.

 What...  

That's been one of the massive things that made Runewarden melee strong.

I can't wait to see what comes of it!Jules said:

Aelios said:

Jules said:

Antonius said:

Cynlael said:

Weapons are all standardised. The speed/damage that Rurin sells are going to be the norm when the changes go live, according to Big T. (or Makarios... Forget who I mentioned it to)

aka: Forging not going to be very profitable in the Anarchaea state, since armour is likely to follow with the standardising.

Forging for most people isn't particularly profitable now, anyway.

That said, having set stats doesn't have to mean that forging is less profitable, it could mean that forging is much more profitable. That's all up to the players who have forging; they could collectively agree that the price for a rapier is now 20,000 gold - which means they're going to make 20,000 gold (maybe minus cost of commodities - call it 19,000 gold profit at hugely overpriced steel) for about two minutes of hitting FORGE.

Unfortunately, the reality is that - as with pretty much every other tradeskill - some people are going to be willing to sell their time for next to nothing. There will be plenty of people that go "Well, a rapier only takes 5 steel and two minutes to forge, so I'll do it for you at cost." and totally destroy any chance anybody has of making a profit, because now that 20,000 gold seems hugely unreasonable.

I am so thankful that probability is going to be completely gone from weapons, and it sounds like they'll be taking away our stat enhancing runes as well, which, as nice as they were for those of us who had them, just can't have been helpful to the cause of balanced stats.  This really makes my day.  As for the profitability of forging, I really hope they make forging completely unappealing for credit whores like me, as I've mentioned before.  That, more than anything else I can think of, will give people some chance to make a profit at it.  So, hopefully, there won't be any perks with forging that would be appealing to someone who wasn't learning the craft purely to provide a service (hopefully for some reasonable, yet profitable fee)!  So, no forging equivalent of the extra tattoo slots you get when you learn tattoos, for example.  No perks!  That will help a fair bit, although there will still be people who want to be "good guys" who will learn the trade for the heck of it, but there will be fewer of them if the trade offers no perks.  I like having people who around who are doing a business, because when they get to make a profit, I generally have more reliable access to services, and unless things got wildly out of hand, I doubt we'd end up paying highway robbery rates.    

As a forging shop owner, screw you too!

We'll have to see how it plays out, but I can definitely say that I value convenience.  If I know someone carries a good selection of seafaring goods, I have their store on my short list.  Same with enchanted goods.  Not to say I'd never hire out and pay a forger under the new system.  Well-stocked shops and craftsmen for hire both seem desirable so long as people are actually making some meaningful gold from their expensive trade skill.  If it really does make shops that carry a good selection of forged goods economically unviable, I'd actually be sad, and would hope admin would take a look, because it removes ready access to a good I think we'll all still very much care about, and which we're hoping will be *more* accessible.    

The moment forging becomes a skill, the value of everything drops massively. Supply Vs. Demand.   Right now, you have a few key forgers that are actually producing anything of a tangible quantity enough to have the awesome armour stats available that people enjoy. The moment that every Tom, Dick, and @Jhui has access to forging -- and with that, item standardization, things become dirt cheap. Look at ink prices for a great example... Rurin prices were a staple forever, until ink milling... and now, 40% of Rurin is standard across the board.

'Sacred Steel'™ is more than likely going under. First steel prices, then my skills!   I wonder if I can get a refund on my 'Hammer of Forging' because of this...?

Santar

I'm assuming the cost of making a single item is going to rise dramatically.

Kenway

Tecton said:

Weapon runes will provide new effects, but won't modify the base statistics on the weapons any longer.

This worries the hell out of me but I was also super worried about Weaponmastery till I tried it so gonna shut the hell up be patient.

Jules

Santar said:

I'm assuming the cost of making a single item is going to rise dramatically.

I pleaded for this, and I hope it happens, although it's already like Logosmas.  

Antonius

Kenway said:

@Exelethril‌ if I remember right.

Dreadblade : Didn't look like it changed so 222/180/149
Scimitar : 70/180/243

Didn't look at the others.

The level three scimitars I bought and used on the public test server had 60 damage, not 70 - though the original stats on the ACC test server were 70/180/243. I don't know when they were adjusted or if I just got different stats to everybody else.

Damage from doubleslash still felt higher than I'd like, to be honest. Hard to balance, really, since not everybody is going to be using level three scimitars with fully artied strength (though I wasn't even using Inspiration, and the Paladin I was hitting unenvenomed to prep limbs was still forced to use hands a lot to keep himself up).

I still think it would be better if all weapons of a given type had the same value for their primary stat (so all scimitars would have 243 speed, all bastard swords would have X damage, etc), then the difference between forged and artefacts is more of the secondary stats (damage or speed, to-hit), as well as some form of other benefit - increased limb damage (as if it had X additional points of damage stat) on scimitars, could add the increased bleed that bastard swords used to have (at a lesser amount) back on artefact bastard swords only, etc.

Right now you're not really fixing the problem that's present with rapiers, you're just changing who has access to the really good weapons (those who can buy level three artefacts rather than those who are around when the superb forged items go up for sale); all of the issues with not everybody having the speed required to compete at a high level remain.

Arador

At the very least balance the forged stats around something that will mechanically allow you to compete at high level with artefacts making your life a bit easier and giving you more room to play. I can imagine that this is hard to balance though so I like Antonius's idea.

Kenway

Artefacts balanced around combat 

Combat balanced around artefacts 

Ernam

Just realized that Troll racial trait (stun on blunt attacks) will be insanely common with double blunt.  Not sure what the proc chance is on troll stun, but doublewhirl is considerably faster (and used far more) than previous blunt attacks, and is obviously two chances per attack for the stun to proc.

Could be a little much.

On another note, Smite doesn't seem to proc it, which is probably a bug.

Arador

Well DW is slower than Monk combos and two attacks per combo instead of three. So if stun procs on Tekura and the world is still standing, then DW will be of no worry.

Santar

It's ok. Trolls have numerous trade-offs for getting the stun on hit. Like having very slow balance AND equilibrium. 

Arador

Yeah can you imagine how incredibly unbalanced it would be without those trade-offs. We would have to give each race its own advantages to compensate or the entire game would be broken.

Tecton

Antonius said:

Right now you're not really fixing the problem that's present with rapiers, you're just changing who has access to the really good weapons (those who can buy level three artefacts rather than those who are around when the superb forged items go up for sale); all of the issues with not everybody having the speed required to compete at a high level remain.

That's what's happening, yes, everything will be based around the forged values, and you'll just have an easier time with artefacts.

Arador

The more I think about it the more changing of artefact weapon prices bothers me. The fact that Knights have always bought two weapons has been moaned about for years but they are not unique in this aspect, only perhaps in the aspect that both weapons affect a single attack. The way I see it, changing around pricing can either go one of two ways, both which are equally bad.

1. Onehanded weapons are lowered in price because you have to buy two. In this case, people who have already bought SP's for example get royally screwed in that they trade in weapons worth 3200 credits for weapons now worth less.

2. Twohanders get bumped up in price so anyone who did not go out and buy them beforehand now feel screwed.

So what you end up is turning these buying decisions into a gamble. You can either buy now/have bought and score or you can buy now/have bought and lose.

It it that unthinkable to that one Knight spec might be cheaper than another? Even if all other prices are balanced, a SoA is still cheaper than any level 3 weapon so S&B will always be a cheaper option unless Long/Broadsword get bumped up to 2700 each at level 3. (Basing numbers on adjustments to match current prices) The only way you could possibly cater to both these scenarios is to give people a credit refund if flail/scimitar prices drop or give them a trade at today's prices if two handers go up in value.

Klendathu

I disagree. If you buy something from a store and the next week the price is lower, do you get a refund of the difference in price?

I paid 300 cr for a permanent tattoo back in the day and wouldn't expect to get 200 cr back now the cost has decreased.

Cooper

I thought that Tecton said somewhere that they would allow direct weapon swaps for any knights wanting to change.

I also doubt they are going to screw over everyone who has bought two weapons but will now only need one, or knights that have bought soulpiercers, etc. It wouldn't surprise me if they offered full credit refunds for certain circumstances.

Trey

Personally, in anticipation of being able to swap specialisations, I'm probably trading one rapier for a bastard and the other for a longsword.