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Classleads September 2014

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  • DaeirDaeir AustraliaMember Posts: 6,276 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Didn't the last "bash all the shitty classleads" thread get axed? I'm all for being critical and discussing stuff, but that's obviously not what's happening here.
  • VayneVayne Rhode IslandMember Posts: 1,897 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Changing elevation should not stop displace.

    image
    Shara
  • VaehlVaehl Member Posts: 962 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Honestly, if it was a novice's classlead it would be forgivable, but these guys are supposed to (atleast slightly) know what they are doing.
  • SantarSantar Member Posts: 2,382 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    It's pretty bad form to go around posting LOL AT THIS CLASSLEAD posts.

    image

    DaeirMelodie
  • DraqoomDraqoom CyreneMember Posts: 480 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Santar said:
    It's pretty bad form to go around posting LOL AT THIS CLASSLEAD posts.
    Especially on the forum account that's not ignored by one of the guys he's lol'ing at.
    image

    DaeirTalysin
  • DaeirDaeir AustraliaMember Posts: 6,276 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Poor form about sums up this thread entirely.

    Let's not start bashing people who are trying to make the game better, even if you feel that they have no idea what they're talking about.
    Talysin
  • AtalkezAtalkez Member Posts: 4,825 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I'd like to see Shin Annihilate melt any ice walls present in room thereby rendering them useless to stop the throw.


    You hug Aurora compassionately.
    PraxidesBeorji
  • SantarSantar Member Posts: 2,382 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Daeir said:
    Poor form about sums up this thread entirely.

    Let's not start bashing people who are trying to make the game better, even if you feel that they have no idea what they're talking about.
    Well, the thread was created on the OPT-IN premise. Since then, people have begin to cast defamation towards unrelated people that aren't posting in this thread.


    Thread is fine as long as it only criticizes people that actually opt-in to have their ideas talked about here.

    And in general, I think discussing the classleads are fine. But going through and pulling the bad ones and saying, 'LOL WHAT A DUMMY' isn't something that should be happening. If a classlead is obviously stupid, just ignore it. If you have some time of genuinely productive discussion to engage in about it, then I think that's fine.

    image

  • VaehlVaehl Member Posts: 962 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited September 2014
    Hmmm ok. Iskla's adjacent stun prone impale for BMs is not a good idea.

    Draqoom's leads:

    A stance with 2 kicks is pretty much useless unless it allows for nonsense like two axks. A stance with 4 punches is overpowered. Monk should still be tied to stances because drs and scs (slightly) forces a choice and jpk buff wouldn't be nice. It'd be hard to create other kinds of bonuses for the other stances. Monk doesn't really need buffs, it's strong offensively.

    Cadarus:

    Alchemist offense is strong already.

    Jinsun:

    The ability to nullify tree for 15 seconds with slime is strong and you can already force tree. No shield for 10-15 seconds is overpowered even with a cool down. Double herb balance is just insanely strong. No to that.

    In general:

    The problem is that the difference between the potential of a class and the average fighter (quite honestly the best fighter in most situations) of a class is huge. This leads to forming classleads for buffs when they are not necessary or the issue already has a counter.

    As well, I've noticed people sometimes discern a problem then just form a creative solution without thinking about how the solution would affect the class. 2 kicks and 4 punches is an interesting concept that was thought up to diversify monk but it just doesn't work out. Sometimes the solution is decent for that one class but would break group combat.

    Main thing is I don't want to see time wasted on classleads with ideas that haven't been well thought out and were just impulsively made. I didn't see Ernam's earlier classlead but he said he's been saving it a few rounds and thinking it up and that's good.
    SherazadErnamSaibel
  • BluefBluef DelosMember Posts: 2,176 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited September 2014
    Cynlael said:
    Surprised Jera hasn't gone the way Imperian did, to be honest. Knight sketching Jera gives str/con, Wytch (shaman) sketching it gives int/con.

    Alchemist affliction rate really needs to be looked at/addressed in these classleads I think, now that people actually know how they function. Also homunculus block, please.
    Yes, please. Someone classlead this! And none of this (except the last paragraph):

    Shamans just need some kind of cool fun utility that conveys the theme of being a shaman - whatever that means - through gameplay. Curses: all PVP stuff. Vodun: requires friends/PVP stuff. Runelore: has some cool stuff, but it's mostly PVP apart from Uruz/Jera/Algiz/Raido/Berkana. Apart from Totems, Raido is the best thing they have in terms of gameplay reinforcing a theme; Algiz and Jera are no different from any other defense you throw up and need to periodically reapply.

    Shamans need something like... a ritual you perform around a campfire, where you smoke peyote, enter an altered state, and start seeing things nobody else can see: NPCs, room ambiance. Beings on the threshold between the spirit world and Prime Material Sapience. Faceless black cats stalking Hashan, scions of the Night spirit. Howling dog spirits in Tasur'ke, psychopomps unable to reach the souls of men lost at sea. Wild spirits of the forest, dementating stuff around Ashtan, spirits of dread in the red fog. Meanwhile all actual players have their names concealed to you on look and in says, while you're high on peyote, because how disorienting and awesome fun would that be. So you smoke peyote and go stumbling around on a vision quest, pick a spirit you want to represent, draw it on your ceremonial mask, and get +1 int or whatever. Then you can call up this spirit's power in a couple of your other abilities.

    I just made all that stuff up, and it's beyond the scope of classleads, but you get what I mean about gameplay reinforcing a theme right? Priests have angels that follow them everywhere and need to be paid health to keep giving their service. Occultists have to seek out and study karmic items. Druids imprint a grove and are stronger within it. Shamans need something like that to establish wtf their roleplay is, and reinforce it through ability mechanics. Preferably low down in one of their skills, so new players see it and think "ooh cool, I wanna be that class".
    Caveat: As long as whatever this new utility is, it doesn't force roleplay or factionalization onto anyone already in the class. I'm imagining someone in Hashan, for example, classleading something that could be cool, except it is about dark spirits or the Night, which 99.9% of the class members at large have no intention of or desire to embrace RP-wise.

    I've already heard about some cool ideas floating around that have yet to be submitted. I know @Achimrst has been busy throwing up everything but the kitchen sink in hopes we get some short-term relief as well as the long-term reworking. Tecton said that we got ignored the last classlead round, so I'm hoping lots of people do the same thing and throw up great ideas. Fingers crossed.
  • AchimrstAchimrst NatureMember Posts: 3,608 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Vaehl said:
    Oh godddd. Toss up between Jinsun's lead, Draqoom's and Cadarus' for worst claslead/knowledge of their classes.
    I didn't even make the list!



  • AchimrstAchimrst NatureMember Posts: 3,608 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Bluef said:
    Cynlael said:
    Surprised Jera hasn't gone the way Imperian did, to be honest. Knight sketching Jera gives str/con, Wytch (shaman) sketching it gives int/con.

    Alchemist affliction rate really needs to be looked at/addressed in these classleads I think, now that people actually know how they function. Also homunculus block, please.
    Yes, please. Someone classlead this! And none of this (except the last paragraph):

    Shamans just need some kind of cool fun utility that conveys the theme of being a shaman - whatever that means - through gameplay. Curses: all PVP stuff. Vodun: requires friends/PVP stuff. Runelore: has some cool stuff, but it's mostly PVP apart from Uruz/Jera/Algiz/Raido/Berkana. Apart from Totems, Raido is the best thing they have in terms of gameplay reinforcing a theme; Algiz and Jera are no different from any other defense you throw up and need to periodically reapply.

    Shamans need something like... a ritual you perform around a campfire, where you smoke peyote, enter an altered state, and start seeing things nobody else can see: NPCs, room ambiance. Beings on the threshold between the spirit world and Prime Material Sapience. Faceless black cats stalking Hashan, scions of the Night spirit. Howling dog spirits in Tasur'ke, psychopomps unable to reach the souls of men lost at sea. Wild spirits of the forest, dementating stuff around Ashtan, spirits of dread in the red fog. Meanwhile all actual players have their names concealed to you on look and in says, while you're high on peyote, because how disorienting and awesome fun would that be. So you smoke peyote and go stumbling around on a vision quest, pick a spirit you want to represent, draw it on your ceremonial mask, and get +1 int or whatever. Then you can call up this spirit's power in a couple of your other abilities.

    I just made all that stuff up, and it's beyond the scope of classleads, but you get what I mean about gameplay reinforcing a theme right? Priests have angels that follow them everywhere and need to be paid health to keep giving their service. Occultists have to seek out and study karmic items. Druids imprint a grove and are stronger within it. Shamans need something like that to establish wtf their roleplay is, and reinforce it through ability mechanics. Preferably low down in one of their skills, so new players see it and think "ooh cool, I wanna be that class".
    Caveat: As long as whatever this new utility is, it doesn't force roleplay or factionalization onto anyone already in the class. I'm imagining someone in Hashan, for example, classleading something that could be cool, except it is about dark spirits or the Night, which 99.9% of the class members at large have no intention of or desire to embrace RP-wise.

    I've already heard about some cool ideas floating around that have yet to be submitted. I know @Achimrst has been busy throwing up everything but the kitchen sink in hopes we get some short-term relief as well as the long-term reworking. Tecton said that we got ignored the last classlead round, so I'm hoping lots of people do the same thing and throw up great ideas. Fingers crossed.
    I offer to all Shaman or people who like shaman I will write ideas, no matter how outlandish or "OMG UR SURRR DERMB" they are, for you to submit in hopes we get at least a classlead that isn't just a replacement for a sigil. I promise.



  • CooperCooper IowaMember Posts: 4,764 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I don't think anyone will beat Jinsun's request that herb balance is doubled vs. Occultist.

    ErnamExelethril
  • AchimrstAchimrst NatureMember Posts: 3,608 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Cooper said:
    I don't think anyone will beat Jinsun's request that herb balance is doubled vs. Occultist.
    How about, using blights takes you off of herb balance?
  • JovoloJovolo EnglandMember Posts: 3,154 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    The difference is that you're actually trying to be dumb.
  • ErnamErnam Member Posts: 2,416 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    edited September 2014
    Vaehl said:
    Oh godddd. Toss up between Jinsun's lead, Draqoom's and Cadarus' for worst claslead/knowledge of their classes.
    @Jinsun's:  Yup.  (edit:  agreeing with @Vaehl)

    @Draqoom's: 
      2: Yup.  (edit:  agreeing with @Vaehl)
      3: Pretty much Yup,     ^ ^
      4: Jesus christ no.
      5: see: 4      (3 & 4 have [very] serious & easily abusable consequences)

    @Cadarus
      39: Interesting, but insanely OP without other abilities/mechanics being modified.
      41: (1) lol no   (2) Meh.  (3)  We both know that's just silly.
      42, 43: I don't know enough about advanced alch combat to comment on these
      44: see below

    @Cadarus, regarding your alchemist classleads, did you notice that your suggestions don't at all address your original problem statements?  Your general sentiment appears to be that Alchemist combat is far too weak early on, and a bit too strong, once things progress a bit further.  While (1) I agree. and (2) I think that's how it is intended to be -  I don't think any of your actual suggestions "fix" this.  All you offer is relatively massive upgrades to Alch combat, not "adjustments" that would (within balance) empower the class while not leaving it in a state of total imbalance.

    I will absolutely admit that I am by no means an expert on alchemist combat (yet) I have certainly studied the core concepts and basic strategies, and I think some of the things you're suggesting would make the class pretty ridiculously unbalanced.  As it stands, the class is already quite potent, despite lacking counters to a few class-specific tactics (none of which appear to have classlead submissions yet).  If anything, I agree that early-on alchemist combat is a bit lacking, but personally, I think that is more or less intentional.  While it leaves a bit of weakiness against slow-prep classes, with proper hindrance, chasing, and tracking, the class appears to be doing what it was meant to do, as is, although it could probably use a little bit more momentum assistance and/or hindrance in the initial stages if it's going to be a significant 1v1 class (it's starting to feel a bit like Shaman at this point, IMO [as in, they're amazing as long as people are dumb enough to stand still for 30 seconds]).
      

    "Our lives are not our own. We are bound to others, past and present. And by each crime and every kindness, we birth our future."


          Manda  |  Godzilla  |  SLC
      1. AchimrstAchimrst NatureMember Posts: 3,608 @@ - Legendary Achaean
        Jovolo said:
        The difference is that you're actually trying to be dumb.

        Lum
      2. HasarHasar Member Posts: 795 @ - Epic Achaean
        Vayne said:
        Changing elevation should not stop displace.

        Pretty sure I flew in the same room while being displaced and it still went through.

      3. TalysinTalysin Member Posts: 575 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent

        Are you guys going to flame me for suggesting a fashion count reduction to puppet throttle? Currently does asphixiation damage at the cost of 6 fashions, needs as least 30 fashions to use and is already area wide (instead of continent wide). I was thinking we could reduce it to two fashions used and have a minimum of 15 fashions to use. Explain your reasoning for dissent please.

      4. AktillumAktillum PhilippinesMember Posts: 1,368 @@ - Legendary Achaean
        @Talysin I always wished Throttle was a little more viable when I was a Jester.

        Talysin
      5. MishgulMishgul ROTHERHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMMember Posts: 5,314 @@ - Legendary Achaean
        Talysin said:

        Are you guys going to flame me for suggesting a fashion count reduction to puppet throttle? Currently does asphixiation damage at the cost of 6 fashions, needs as least 30 fashions to use and is already area wide (instead of continent wide). I was thinking we could reduce it to two fashions used and have a minimum of 15 fashions to use. Explain your reasoning for dissent please.

        I don't see it seeing more use because of a fashion reduction.

        -

        One of the symptoms of an approaching nervous breakdown is the belief that one's work is terribly important

        As drawn by Shayde
        hic locus est ubi mors gaudet succurrere vitae
        Achimrst
      6. TalysinTalysin Member Posts: 575 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
        Fair point. Although, why have it at all then?
        Achimrst
      7. AodfionnAodfionn Seattle, WAMember Posts: 1,216 @@ - Legendary Achaean

        The Basilican Mace is essentially useless - priests have spiritual maces, and anyone going for blunt weapons for the Shatter ability are going to go for other weapons further up in chivalry. There is seemingly no practical use for this being in existence.

        -------------------------------------------------------------------------------

        Solution #1:

        Remove Mace from Forging and replace it with a wearable Helmet, that would function in a similar manner to a cavalry shield.

        Solution #2:

        Remove Mace from Forging and replace it with some other sort of weapon that, while still effectively useless, would make more sense to be forged by people in multiple factions.

        Solution #3:

        Remove Mace from Forging and give us some sort of interesting flavour ability.



        -------------------------------------------------------------------------------

        Skill : Devotion Ability : Deliverance

        -------------------------------------------------------------------------------

        Problem:

        When Deliverance is stopped by a monolith, it currently drains a huge amount of Devotion.

        -------------------------------------------------------------------------------

        Solution #1:

        Cut the Devotion cost of a failed Deliverance in half

        Solution #2:

        Completely remove the Devotion cost of a failed Deliverance, and make a failed deliverance take 1 sec EQ

        Solution #3:

        -------------------------------------------------------------------------------





        Thoughts?

        Aurora says, "Are you drunk, Aodfionn?" 

        (The Targossian Academy): Halos says, "Go on! I need to feel the wind in my hair!"


      8. MishgulMishgul ROTHERHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMMember Posts: 5,314 @@ - Legendary Achaean
        Talysin said:
        Fair point. Although, why have it at all then?
        This is a good question.

        -

        One of the symptoms of an approaching nervous breakdown is the belief that one's work is terribly important

        As drawn by Shayde
        hic locus est ubi mors gaudet succurrere vitae
      9. JukilianJukilian Member Posts: 1,579 @ - Epic Achaean
        Aodfionn said:

        The Basilican Mace is essentially useless - priests have spiritual maces, and anyone going for blunt weapons for the Shatter ability are going to go for other weapons further up in chivalry. There is seemingly no practical use for this being in existence.

        -------------------------------------------------------------------------------

        Solution #1:

        Remove Mace from Forging and replace it with a wearable Helmet, that would function in a similar manner to a cavalry shield.

        Solution #2:

        Remove Mace from Forging and replace it with some other sort of weapon that, while still effectively useless, would make more sense to be forged by people in multiple factions.

        Solution #3:

        Remove Mace from Forging and give us some sort of interesting flavour ability.



        -------------------------------------------------------------------------------

        Skill : Devotion Ability : Deliverance

        -------------------------------------------------------------------------------

        Problem:

        When Deliverance is stopped by a monolith, it currently drains a huge amount of Devotion.

        -------------------------------------------------------------------------------

        Solution #1:

        Cut the Devotion cost of a failed Deliverance in half

        Solution #2:

        Completely remove the Devotion cost of a failed Deliverance, and make a failed deliverance take 1 sec EQ

        Solution #3:

        -------------------------------------------------------------------------------





        Thoughts?

        On the Mace idea, my first thought is the weaponry remake may make them more viable (also did you mean further up in chivalry or weaponry?). Tough at the moment, I agree. Maces never get forged, for those reasons.
      10. AktillumAktillum PhilippinesMember Posts: 1,368 @@ - Legendary Achaean
        edited September 2014
        Mishgul said:
        Talysin said:
        Fair point. Although, why have it at all then?
        This is a good question.
        Its low enough in Puppetry that lowbie/midbies can use it for a damage kill. There was a time when Delos ran level 20 - 50 FFAs quite frequently. Today, obviously, its pretty useless, except for combining with bleed spam on a full puppet.

        Please endorse:

        Report #71
        -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
        Submitted by: Aktillum       Status      : Submitted
        Skill       : Artefacts      Ability     : Headslam helmet
        -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
        Problem:
        Headslam is vastly underpowered, perhaps even entirely useless. It stuns the headslammer and only 
        does a little more damage than a punch. I propose a Headslam Helmet to make headslam kills more 
        viable.
        -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
        Solution #1:
        Headslam Helmet - Spiked Edition. The Headslam Helmet SE has an envenomable spike, so that you may 
        curare headslam your victim.
        Solution #2:
        Headslam Helmet - Concussion Edition. The Headslam Helmet CE will give a concussion + level 2 head 
        damage to a person who is headslammed several times in a row.
        Solution #3:
        Headslam Helmet - Zinedine Zidane Edition. The Headslam Helmet ZZE will prone whoever is on the 
        receiving end of the headslam.
        -------------------------------------------------------------------------------

        PraxidesHalosNim
      11. RangorRangor Member Posts: 3,182 @@ - Legendary Achaean
        classlead show 72

        why wasn't that already made? NO MORE OVERLAPPING DISRUPTS PLZ.
        image
      12. VaehlVaehl Member Posts: 962 @@ - Legendary Achaean
        edited September 2014
        Definitely no to less/no devotion cost for failed devotion deliverance. It's already a really powerful ability with a small counter and there's no reason to endorse spamming it when target on mono or just there being no penalty to failing it. At the least this cost forces the person being delivered to make atleast communicate slightly to the person trying to save them other than spamming deliver on ct or tells.

        The mace change is really really low priority compared to other things. It's mainly flavour and not some game changing combat ability or inmate class issue. Especially just changing the forged weapon to something else useless. The mace is just a forged weapon. It doesn't have a huge tie to priest because they use spiritual or artefact maces.
        Praxides
      13. DaeirDaeir AustraliaMember Posts: 6,276 @@ - Legendary Achaean
        The 1s eq on deliver fails due to mono is a good change. You can exhaust 10-20% of your pool at once if you accidentally/habitually spam the ability multiple times in a panic.
      14. VaehlVaehl Member Posts: 962 @@ - Legendary Achaean
        edited September 2014
        Yeah I just honestly dislike the devotion reduction. An eq cost of one second to regular deliver eq time to like 12 hours (f u) would be a QOL change for devotion users..
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