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  • CooperCooper IowaMember Posts: 5,073 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Jacen said:
    So, I'm still lost with this limb damage thing. I tested on a target with literally no defenses, observed that there was no regen going on or anything, no armor, no favor. I found that a DRS JBP = 1.17 UNS JBP. Testing on a different target, 4122 health, I found that 10 DRS JBP broke, while 13 UNS JBP broke.

    This means that, in units of UNS JBP, I did between 1200 and 1300 damage while UNS, and while in DRS, I did between 1053 and 1170 damage. Numbers are obviously not reconcilable. 

    I don't even know how to continue from here.
    Why are you suddenly assuming that health damage directly correlates to limb damage? That has never been the case.

  • ErnamErnam Member Posts: 2,416 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean

    Health damage absolutely does not correlate to limb damage, for any class I have solved the equations for.  They're totally different equations, with totally different inputs and methods of mitigation.

    Regarding sharing the equations, or method of solving for them, contact me via message or PM.

    "Our lives are not our own. We are bound to others, past and present. And by each crime and every kindness, we birth our future."


          Manda  |  Godzilla  |  SLC
      1. JacenJacen Member Posts: 2,304 @@ - Legendary Achaean
        Er, but it does. I've been using the below numbers for like 3 years, and it was wrong on maybe 2 or 3 people in that time, after Nemutaur or whoever made the breakpoint formula a little more accurate

        Date: 9/23/2009 at 11:16
        From: Kohai Nitro Uruuva, Ashuran Tiger
        To  : Everyone
        Subj: Tekura - Limb breaks

        This document describes a very accurate way to predict limb breaks as a
        function of the max health of your opponent. The amount of damage a limb
        takes before breaking depends on the maximum health of your opponent.

        A first thing I measured is the amount of damage each of the Tekura
        attacks do, in all different stances. Following is a table of these
        results. All numbers are in units of unstanced HFP.

        -------------------------------------------------------
        |     | NO  | DRS | SCS | RTS | BRS | HRS | EGS | CTS |
        -------------------------------------------------------
        | HFP |  1  | 1.3 |  1  | 0.7 | 1.4 | 1.1 | 0.8 | 0.6 |
        |        |      |       |      |       |       |       |       |       |
        | SPP  |  1  | 1.3 |  1  | 0.7 | 1.4 | 1.1 | 0.8 | 0.6 |
        |        |      |       |      |       |       |       |       |       |
        | HKP |  1  | 1.3 |  1  | 0.7 | 1.4 | 1.1 | 0.8 | 0.6 |
        |        |      |       |      |       |       |       |       |       |
        | UCP | 1.03| 1.34| 1.03| 0.72| 1.45| 1.14| 0.83| 0.62|
        |        |        |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |
        | WWK | 1.97| 2.36| 2.56| 1.67| 1.18| 1.77| 1.77| 1.37|
        |        |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |
        | SDK | 2.35| 2.82| 3.06| 1.99| 1.4 | 2.11| 2.11| 1.64|
        |         |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |
        | MNK | 1.97| 2.36| 2.56| 1.67| 1.18| 1.77| 1.77| 1.37|
        |         |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |
        | SNK | 1.97| 2.36| 2.56| 1.67| 1.18| 1.77| 1.77| 1.37|
        |        |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |
        | AXK | 5.57| 6.69| 7.24| 4.73| 3.34| 5.01| 5.01| 3.9 |
        -------------------------------------------------------

        The next thing that was measured is the limb damage that is needed to
        break limbs of test targets with different maximum healths. This
        resulted in the formula:


                ------------------------------------------------
                |  breakpoint = 2.96 * ln(maxhealth) - 16.51  |
                ------------------------------------------------

        What is the meaning of this formula?

        You assess your opponent, you take the maxhealth and fill it into the
        formula. The result gives the amount of damage a limb of your opponent
        will take before it breaks. For each punch/kick you need to add the
        number in the table for the corresponding stance/hit. When the damage
        exceeds the breakpoint, the limb will break.

        Remember that knuckles do effect limb damage, so you will need those
        into the calculations if you are using them.

        If you notice any inaccuracies, feel free to let me know.
         
        Penned by my hand on the 11th of Ero, in the year 519 AF.
        image
      2. BukariinBukariin Member Posts: 438 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
        I can just say that everybody has a fixed limb health with an added amount of health dependent on max health.  So your equation ends up looking like this:

        (FixedHitpoints/PunchDamage) + (MaxHitpoints/PunchDamage)

        You must deal at least this much damage to break a limb.  Often you'll test on two opponents with much different max health who require the same number of hits to break, and this problem is exacerbated if you're testing DRS punches, which do more damage (as an example, I tested DRS on one opponent with 3244 hitpoints and another with 4179 hitpoints, both took 8 DRS punches to break - that's a lot of gray area).
      3. JovoloJovolo EnglandMember Posts: 3,164 @@ - Legendary Achaean
        It only takes like 8 seconds of combos at the start of a fight to get a break point. Prior calculations are an optional, unnecessary endeavour. Good luck with it if that's what you want to do, but don't let it stress you out.
        VaehlBukariinExelethril
      4. ErnamErnam Member Posts: 2,416 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
        edited October 2014
        Jovolo said:
        It only takes like 8 seconds of combos at the start of a fight to get a break point. Prior calculations are an optional, unnecessary endeavour. Good luck with it if that's what you want to do, but don't let it stress you out.

        It's considerably longer for knights, and totally different for BMs.  The reason I set about solving the game's limb damage equations in the first place was for Blademaster, because of how difficult it is to determine breakpoints using the method you described.  With things like legslash, armslash, and centreslash, you can't break a limb without giving the other limb an unknown amount of limb damage.  Thus, if you don't have the equation, you're either playing a guessing game, or best-case, using those cheese-dick "magic number" methods and "prep path" methods that are frequently wrong, and break down after the first limb break.  For knights, breaking a limb simply takes too damn long to do what you're describing, and can often be incorrect if your rapiers don't have exactly the same damage stat (which is almost always the case for those who match speed stats on rapiers).

        In short, what you're describing is totally fine for monks (as is, most of the time, limbprobe), but doesn't work at all for knights and BMs (four of the five classes that heavily rely on limb breaks for their primary kill strategies).

        I'm a huge proponent of simplifying limb damage equations, or simply releasing them, so it doesn't take a mad scientist to reliably break limbs when expected.

        "Our lives are not our own. We are bound to others, past and present. And by each crime and every kindness, we birth our future."


              Manda  |  Godzilla  |  SLC
          1. DatriusDatrius Member Posts: 531 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
            @Makarios So no quiver capacity change coming or is it one of those to be done laters? :(.
          2. ErnamErnam Member Posts: 2,416 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
            Datrius said:
            @Makarios So no quiver capacity change coming or is it one of those to be done laters? :(.

            ... why?

            "Our lives are not our own. We are bound to others, past and present. And by each crime and every kindness, we birth our future."


                  Manda  |  Godzilla  |  SLC
                Aepas
              1. MakariosMakarios Administrator Posts: 1,861 Achaean staff
                One of the later ones.
                Praxides
              2. DatriusDatrius Member Posts: 531 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
                Makarios said:
                One of the later ones.
                Any chance of an eta on that one?
              3. TerraTerra Member Posts: 676 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
                edited October 2014
                Talysin said:
                Ernam said:
                You keep saying how awesome priest is, and yet I see like... 2 active priests.
                I don't agree that there's clear correlation here. Priest is a faction class, changing class is expensive, most people will not change class abruptly solely for PK.
                Many people have switched class irrespective of their RP faction. Nowadays it seems that alts are more en vogue. Regardless, we would see more priests around.


                Eh. Personally, I dislike playing a character in Targossas. It's boring to me. I alt priest anyway (as I think everyone knows by now), but not often. Would play it full time if I could in Mhaldor. The very fact that I'm willing to alt just to play it (when I don't generally alt as anything) is evidence of how awesome a class it is.

                Give me like a Torc and maybe an artie mace and my offense would probably be unstoppable.

                It's not that priest's -offense- is -better- than every other class. There are other classes with powerful offense. It's just that it can kill people fast, it isn't really stopped by any particular curing tactics (like, say, heartseed is), so it's effective in every tier, and it's combined with superb defense (easily the best hinder in the game + empathy + care + revitalization + bliss), all of which can be used without really losing any offense (see also: active bedevil), AND with piety, so people can't really run away. Priest also has leg breaks to stop evade, devotion force to easily stop tumble (while continuing to afflict), prone and/or angel strip (which is really fast) to counter shield, as well as abilities that go through shield . . . need I go on?

                Edit: The fact that I had to teach the people who have been priest for years how to play it is a better indication of why there aren't many priests around. It is a misunderstood class.

                VaehlBlujixapug
              4. AntoniusAntonius Member Posts: 4,850 @@ - Legendary Achaean
                Ernam said:
                Jovolo said:
                It only takes like 8 seconds of combos at the start of a fight to get a break point. Prior calculations are an optional, unnecessary endeavour. Good luck with it if that's what you want to do, but don't let it stress you out.

                It's considerably longer for knights
                Probably twice as long, worst case. Not difficult to break an arm or head (i.e. a limb your opponent probably isn't going to worry about you hitting). 16 seconds at the start of the fight to make sure you know when your opponent's limbs will break isn't a huge deal. The problem Knight has is using that knowledge afterwards, since bypassing parry with rapiers that aren't at the very top end of speed is fucking awful against certain classes.
              5. BukariinBukariin Member Posts: 438 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
                Just to give you an idea of how brutally necessary limb counters are for Monks:

                Bards have a lot of ways of fucking up my prep.  My prep, by the way, consists of bypass combos.  But Bards have a ton of evasion, especially if they have trans Avoidance.  If I miss a Roundhouse kick, that opens up the punches to being either evaded or parried, with a high likelihood that at least one will be mitigated. 

                If I'm not counting, just being like "eh it'll work itself out" then there's an extreme likelihood, after eleven or twelve combos, that one limb is at least one point off from being fully prepped.  And that means it's very, very likely that I'll break one limb and not the other, which renders the whole point of prepping limbs in the first place completely moot.  However, if I know how far off I am from breaking any one limb, I can correct things and bring all limbs back to fully prepped without accidentally breaking one before the rest.

                I figured Jovolo was trolling, so I'm not really responding to him.
                Praxides
              6. JovoloJovolo EnglandMember Posts: 3,164 @@ - Legendary Achaean
                You don't need to know limb damage formula - which is what was being discussed - to count limbs accurately in terms of how often you have hit them, they're completely separate entities. In my post I was only referring to Monks. Outliers are outliers (bard/jester/serp). The majority of people can be broken by a Monk within the first 10 seconds of a fight. I wasn't trolling.
                Praxides
              7. BukariinBukariin Member Posts: 438 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
                edited October 2014
                You forgot BM, which can parry a leg even when proned, which means I absolutely have to break arms before breaking legs which both doubles my prep time and the chance for fuckups.

                E: And you do need an accurate formula - not THE formula, necessarily, but one close enough that you're not going to break limbs when you intend to merely prep them - in order to bypass Augment on a BM.

                E2: And re-reading your post, I'm pretty much just annoyed that you assume the "majority" of people being easy to prep means I don't have to utilize all the resources at my disposal.  Fighting without a counter is okay against most people, but fighting with a counter is okay against all people.
              8. SenaSena Member Posts: 3,957 @@ - Legendary Achaean
                Bukariin said:
                You forgot BM, which can parry a leg even when proned, which means I absolutely have to break arms before breaking legs which both doubles my prep time and the chance for fuckups.
                He's talking about breaking a single limb, not as part of setting them up for a kill, but just to find out how many hits it takes to break. Meaning that an actual formula for calculating break points is unnecessary, not that limb counters are unnecessary.
                Praxides
              9. BukariinBukariin Member Posts: 438 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
                Sena said:
                Bukariin said:
                You forgot BM, which can parry a leg even when proned, which means I absolutely have to break arms before breaking legs which both doubles my prep time and the chance for fuckups.
                He's talking about breaking a single limb, not as part of setting them up for a kill, but just to find out how many hits it takes to break. Meaning that an actual formula for calculating break points is unnecessary, not that limb counters are unnecessary.
                Two things wrong with this:

                1) My opponent can arbitrarily apply salve early to throw off my count, and
                2) It means additional "pregame" prep just to figure out how many blows it'll take to break a limb.

                I can bypass both by having a reliable formula.
              10. JovoloJovolo EnglandMember Posts: 3,164 @@ - Legendary Achaean
                I'll point you to sawbones if you're worried about people doing that, it's what it was invented for. There are other methods around a fake apply though, and as a Monk you have a pretty certain one, lol. Go figure it out! I thought that was the fun part of combat.

                Point number 2? Yes, and these these things are a part of combat (just like mind-games in point 1). Like I said, you don't need a limb formula to fight as you can do it with just a counter and gathering your break points at the start of the fight and extrapolating +/- punches for different health ranges. It's up to you if you want to do the calculations to find an accurate formula, but don't pretend like it's some vital aspect of playing your class, because it isn't.
                DalranRakon
              11. ErnamErnam Member Posts: 2,416 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
                You honestly don't need one at all if you just stick to RHK and a few loose thumb rules that tend to be 95% accurate with some practice.  (To re-iterate what was said above)

                "Our lives are not our own. We are bound to others, past and present. And by each crime and every kindness, we birth our future."


                      Manda  |  Godzilla  |  SLC
                  1. BukariinBukariin Member Posts: 438 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
                    edited October 2014
                    Jovolo said:
                    I'll point you to sawbones
                    Yeah I'll just blow a major trait on something I don't need, thanks!

                    Jovolo said:

                    Point number 2? Yes, and these these things are a part of combat (just like mind-games in point 1).

                    But it's a mind game I don't have to play.

                    Like I've said (maybe not clearly but here goes): I am only at an advantage for using a reliable formula.

                    E: And for the record, I'm not saying that Monks can't fight or can't win fights without a formula - they certainly have and still do.  But you agree that, to make it work without a formula, there are sacrifices made in terms of prep time, major traits, and overall effectiveness (because even Ernam's "95%" accuracy isn't 100%).
                  2. JovoloJovolo EnglandMember Posts: 3,164 @@ - Legendary Achaean
                    Yes, and you're welcome to try and figure it out and use it if you like. I haven't said anywhere in this thread that you shouldn't use a limb formula should you put in the effort to make one or find someone willing to give you theirs.
                    Ernam
                  3. RakonRakon Member Posts: 267 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
                    @Bukariin‌ ;

                    Knowing the limb damage formula, and making a limb break counter are two sperate entities.  You don't need the formula to make a counter. 
                  4. BukariinBukariin Member Posts: 438 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
                    Yes, I know.
                    Ernam
                  5. MizikMizik Member Posts: 2,096 @@ - Legendary Achaean
                    I would only go for kills shots when Augment is down. 

                    Remember, if

                    SHIN AUGMENT X then the cooldown will be X + 3.5 after the third person messages.
                    image
                  6. AtalkezAtalkez Member Posts: 4,957 @@ - Legendary Achaean
                    Does sapience report every action and command?


                    You hug Aurora compassionately.
                  7. MizikMizik Member Posts: 2,096 @@ - Legendary Achaean
                    Yes, it's how Monks track parry changes.
                    image
                    Draqoom
                  8. DraqoomDraqoom CyreneMember Posts: 480 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
                    Mizik said:
                    Yes, it's how Monks track parry changes.
                    lol'd for thinking a monk can hold a sapience lock for any amount of time that would help at all unless they're a newb that's 5% of your might
                    image

                  9. MelodieMelodie Port Saint Lucie, FloridaMember Posts: 5,037 @@ - Legendary Achaean
                    Jhui seems to think it works pretty well!

                    I'm pretty sure we had a discussion on its OPness.
                               My wing tips waltz across naive
                                     Wood floors they creak
                                  Innocently down the stairs

                                          Drag melody
                    My percussive feet serve cobweb headaches as a
                              Matching set of marching clocks
                                The slumbering apparitions
                              That they've come to wake up
                    Jhui
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