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Classleads September 2014

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  • CooperCooper Member Posts: 5,336 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    So BMs are pretty much immune to Knights now. Healthtrans heals more, mir reduces damage, prone parry bypass roughly half as effective.

    Arador
  • KuyKuy Member Posts: 1,497 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    ANGEL PUSH line, for those who want it:

    A guardian angel extends a hand in your direction, and a sudden impact knocks you from your feet.
    [2:41:24 AM] Kenway: I bet you smell like evergreen trees and you could wrestle boreal mammals but they'd rather just cuddle you
  • KrossKross Member Posts: 779
    Ada said:
    A guardian angel extends a hand in your direction, and a sudden impact knocks you from your feet.

    Yay for priest proning!!

    Kuy said:
    ANGEL PUSH line, for those who want it:

    A guardian angel extends a hand in your direction, and a sudden impact knocks you from your feet.
    Jhui
  • KuyKuy Member Posts: 1,497 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    woops
    [2:41:24 AM] Kenway: I bet you smell like evergreen trees and you could wrestle boreal mammals but they'd rather just cuddle you
  • AtalkezAtalkez Member Posts: 5,080 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Cooper said:
    So BMs are pretty much immune to Knights now. Healthtrans heals more, mir reduces damage, prone parry bypass roughly half as effective.


    Not necessarily, they just have to do more than spam ept/ept into their break chain to bypass parry. I can still do it prone so you have to stick the anti-parry measures prior to the leg breaks, to stop the parry stopping your second leg break (assuming switching parry on first leg break which anyone smart is going to do)

    I like the change (albeit biased) because as Ayoxele said now there are decisions that have to be made both on your offense and my defense. If I put up Augment, I'm probably not going to have Shin to healthtrans to mitigate bbt/dsb. Also can't do it off balance from other class skills (that I've seen) but is balanceless so can be done before. With Shin being the pool you use, if your shin accumulated is down to say 40 instead of the 100, your not going to have Augment up for very long.

    It is just going to make knights have to do some intelligent fighting vs BMs. Monks can still RHK to bypass it, obviously at a much slower prep rate.



    You hug Aurora compassionately.
  • ErnamErnam Member Posts: 2,416 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean

    With monks having 40% less time before limbs reset, and having significant reductions in actual limb damage landed, I don't think monks have 60-90 seconds to wait for Augment to drop.

    Additionally, I think Augment should absolutely have a 3rd party message for when it drops.

    Also, can't you continue to generate shin while Augment is up?  Something to keep in mind is that Shin is generated crazy fast, so I think it's going to be very easy for people to simply put it up when their legs get prepped, and call it a win vs monks (and probably also knights).

    "Our lives are not our own. We are bound to others, past and present. And by each crime and every kindness, we birth our future."


          Manda  |  Godzilla  |  SLC
      1. CooperCooper Member Posts: 5,336 @@ - Legendary Achaean
        The issue isn't your break chain, it's getting to that point. Knights already had a rough time. If a BM knows they can parry on the ground, all they have to do is perma parry an arm and it will take an ungodly amount of time to set them up for vivisect or dsb, and they'll probably just tank the dsb anyway.

        ExelethrilArador
      2. ErnamErnam Member Posts: 2,416 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean

        I'd say they're both issues, but that's definitely true.  Something to keep in mind is that BMs are roughly as tanky as monks (not at all, without monk abilities), and while Healthtrans might be pretty nifty, it has some restrictions, and is nowhere near as crazy as Numb/Apathy.

        "Our lives are not our own. We are bound to others, past and present. And by each crime and every kindness, we birth our future."


              Manda  |  Godzilla  |  SLC
          1. XithXith Member Posts: 2,602 @@ - Legendary Achaean
            Jacen said:
            Makarios said:
            We are sorry about the inconvenience (re: limb damage), but it pretty much had to happen sooner or later. As a form of consolation, the reason we didn't touch axk quite yet is so we can see how this goes and adjust it around that. So you will probably get something new soon.

            You could release the formula in compensation? :)
            Yeah the one thing about Achaea that really can be annoying as sin is having to build counters without knowing the damage points/requirements. Applies to certain staffstrikes, as well as alchemist fluid/temper levels and stuff. Where numerous players have to test the abilities to figure them out over and over. I suppose it encourages a form of roleplay in having to actually "learn" your abilities, but even if it's not listed in-game I think the wiki should have official percentages for people who "ain't got time fo dat".
            I like my steak like I like my Magic cards: mythic rare.
            PraxidesLum
          2. ErnamErnam Member Posts: 2,416 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
            edited October 2014

            It takes about 8-12 hours to "solve" the limb damage equations, per ability, to mathematical certainty.

            While it's certainly a(n unecessary) pain in the ass, it's hardly impossible.

            "Our lives are not our own. We are bound to others, past and present. And by each crime and every kindness, we birth our future."


                  Manda  |  Godzilla  |  SLC
              1. XithXith Member Posts: 2,602 @@ - Legendary Achaean
                Sena said:
                So, what does spirituality push do? And what are the new mace stats?

                I like my steak like I like my Magic cards: mythic rare.
                PraxidesExelethrilLum
              2. AtalkezAtalkez Member Posts: 5,080 @@ - Legendary Achaean
                Cooper said:
                The issue isn't your break chain, it's getting to that point. Knights already had a rough time. If a BM knows they can parry on the ground, all they have to do is perma parry an arm and it will take an ungodly amount of time to set them up for vivisect or dsb, and they'll probably just tank the dsb anyway.

                Why would you static parry an arm, letting them break your leg with delph to prep that arm? Even if you switch parry between arms, they'll both get prepped eventually if you never switch to leg. Both arms are prepped, so now I switch to leg that is probably already prepped from my parrying arms.


                Please explain?



                You hug Aurora compassionately.
              3. XithXith Member Posts: 2,602 @@ - Legendary Achaean
                Cooper said:
                So BMs are pretty much immune to Knights now. Healthtrans heals more, mir reduces damage, prone parry bypass roughly half as effective.
                If they were I think it'd be a suitable unbalance. Some classes "counter" others, and if something called Blademaster is any sort of easy prey to other classes that use blades, it kind of defeats the point.

                Frankly I never liked blademasters a ton but I think I've seen several Shindo buffs lately that I approve of. It always kind of lacked the oomph I thought it deserved. Even a skill like Annihilate that doesn't do much annihilating. 
                I like my steak like I like my Magic cards: mythic rare.
              4. JovoloJovolo EnglandMember Posts: 3,249 @@ - Legendary Achaean
                I assume the ability was added to prevent being mangle-locked by Monks, in which case it doesn't need to be up to ninety seconds long. What's wrong with a 3.5s eq activation cost that lasts for eq cost+10%of the amount of shin they activated it with? so 20% = 5.5 seonds, 50% = 8.5 seconds, 100% = 13.5 seconds. They only need to stop that one combo before the leg break to be able to stand anyway.




                Ernam
              5. CooperCooper Member Posts: 5,336 @@ - Legendary Achaean
                Atalkez said:
                Cooper said:
                The issue isn't your break chain, it's getting to that point. Knights already had a rough time. If a BM knows they can parry on the ground, all they have to do is perma parry an arm and it will take an ungodly amount of time to set them up for vivisect or dsb, and they'll probably just tank the dsb anyway.

                Why would you static parry an arm, letting them break your leg with delph to prep that arm? Even if you switch parry between arms, they'll both get prepped eventually if you never switch to leg. Both arms are prepped, so now I switch to leg that is probably already prepped from my parrying arms.


                Please explain?

                Because I'm not going to die from a dsb on double broken legs alone, and I can evade out on any prep damage. Once they start breaking legs to parry bypass they will only get in 1 dsl per leg broken, making their prep extremely long. I'm sure there is a more efficient way to parry and use the ability to make it even worse, but I'm lazy.

              6. AtalkezAtalkez Member Posts: 5,080 @@ - Legendary Achaean

                I don't disagree with you, knight parry bypass is in serious need of work. There are ways, and lots of them, but nothing reliable enough to be called a true parry bypass for the class.

                The ability is going to be very hard to deal with for knights and monks alike, although monks have some mitigation of it through telepathy (mind switch parry to broken limb).

                I like it, though I think it was rather unnecessary change to be honest. If stopping mangle locks was the idea, shouldn't the monk limb change accomplish that? The only time I've been mangle locked was against a STR specc monk, never against another prep class. 



                You hug Aurora compassionately.
              7. ErnamErnam Member Posts: 2,416 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
                @Atalkez strength doesn't affect limb damage.  

                "Our lives are not our own. We are bound to others, past and present. And by each crime and every kindness, we birth our future."


                      Manda  |  Godzilla  |  SLC
                    Atalkez
                  1. CaladbolgCaladbolg Campbell County TNMember Posts: 1,126 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
                    You can mangle lock as bm with level 3 band and arash if the health is low enough.

                    Blunt damage is 2x slashing damage limb levels, which is the reason monks break so fast imo

                  2. DarklyreDarklyre Member Posts: 189 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
                    Ernam said:
                    @Atalkez strength doesn't affect limb damage.  
                    Knuckles do, though, so there may be some confusion if someone sees a harder-hitting monk prep faster.
                  3. VaehlVaehl Member Posts: 962 @@ - Legendary Achaean
                    Oh when I said decisions made I also said add a negative to using it. Something like temporary more damage taken or whatever was what I had in mind. Maybe something more creative than that. Oh and if you have to activate it early that's already a bit of intelligence required so the negative penalties don't have to be too harsh (as long as you can't keep the ability up more than like 7 seconds).
                    Jhui
                  4. JacenJacen Member Posts: 2,306 @@ - Legendary Achaean
                    Ernam said:

                    It takes about 8-12 hours to "solve" the limb damage equations, per ability, to mathematical certainty.

                    While it's certainly a(n unecessary) pain in the ass, it's hardly impossible.
                    Mind explaining your method? The way I look at it is that the best you can do is reduce uncertainty to small, discrete ranges where you don't know what will happen, simply because of the lack of control over HP test values. 
                    image
                    Rohai
                  5. CaladbolgCaladbolg Campbell County TNMember Posts: 1,126 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
                    edited October 2014
                    Jacen said:
                    Ernam said:

                    It takes about 8-12 hours to "solve" the limb damage equations, per ability, to mathematical certainty.

                    While it's certainly a(n unecessary) pain in the ass, it's hardly impossible.
                    Mind explaining your method? The way I look at it is that the best you can do is reduce uncertainty to small, discrete ranges where you don't know what will happen, simply because of the lack of control over HP test values. 
                    If you figure out the exact formula for the limb breaking in general then you can get it down to an exact amount. While this also requires alot of math that most of us are not likely used to dealing with.

                    Would make much more sense for Achaea to just give the formula's instead of someone just cracking it.

                    Doesn't add any skill in fighting (imo) or experience really to know when your oppoents limbs are going to break, (except maybe basic class experience) It just takes a little counter and a formula for it.

                    Edit:Also you can generally tell from the bugs that come from things like this happening that typically all they will do is change 1 element in the original formula.

                    So for instance, If the formula happened to be

                    (Oppoents max life /.005) +30 x (100 +10) /max health = number of punches or whatever
                    they could easily just switch the +30 to +10 or the x 100+10 to x100 or something and come up with lower numbers. (which seems to be what they generally do).

                    Cooper said:
                    So BMs are pretty much immune to Knights now. Healthtrans heals more, mir reduces damage, prone parry bypass roughly half as effective.

                    ----
                    This one time, Manifest was fighting me when I was bm.
                    Now to be fair I had already died twice to dsl damage, but had also brokenstar'd him twice do to voidfist para.

                    So anyways we are fighting in underworld and he runs off so of course I chase him.. into a totem.. and then he breaks my torso with delph/delph and my leg with delph/delph and then I wake up and he dsls my other leg. then impales. I'm in mir stance with most of my life. I sip up to full (because shit the impale for dsb is 4 seconds. and then I get disemboweled, Did a ton of damage but since you know I had 3800 life and Shin heal with 100 shin was 1500 even.. 40% shin heal is nice.

                    On the other hand if you have 7k life, that 1500 is only 21% (HUGE differnece)
                    Since everything is percent based. that ment stacking health as bm made shin heal less effective overall.

                    -----
                    But main point of this part of the post is.. Everything is Knight immune now unless it can't survive dsl damage.

                    PraxidesArador
                  6. RohaiRohai Member Posts: 451 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
                    edited October 2014
                    When someone figures this out please let me know so I can update my limb counting, please?
                  7. AktillumAktillum PhilippinesMember Posts: 1,368 @@ - Legendary Achaean
                    am I correct in assuming monks are in a bad place atm with limb damage nerf + 3 minute reset? From an outside perspective it appears like preps now take longer to set up but shorter to reset

                  8. KuyKuy Member Posts: 1,497 @@ - Legendary Achaean
                    Sena said:
                    So, what does spirituality push do? And what are the new mace stats?
                    New mace stats, by the way, are just 145/something/205.  All they did was shift 5 points from damage to speed.  My level 1 artie mace was not affected at all by this change; only maces summoned from Spirituality.
                    [2:41:24 AM] Kenway: I bet you smell like evergreen trees and you could wrestle boreal mammals but they'd rather just cuddle you
                  9. KenwayKenway San FranciscoMember Posts: 1,130 @@ - Legendary Achaean
                    All knight bypass methods are avoidable if you know how. Paladin/Infernal have the perk of gravehands/piety but they sacrifice speed making things like gecko bypassing(still 100% curable) harder. With this change not only can someone completely ignore your prep attempts given the know-how, they can also ignore your break chain -without- the know-how. Even if I did the smart thing and used their parried limb for the first break w/ delphinium, they have enough time to switch parry over to the other leg, and laugh.

                    To avoid DSB you have the options:
                    -cure out of bypass attempts meaning you'll never be prepped for one in the first place (all are 100% avoidable with the know-how)
                    -cure torso (insanely easy to keep track of with scripting such as SLC)
                    -tumble (take slightly more damage than an unbroken torso dsb)
                    -tank it because you sip for more than we can deal damage pre/post dsb
                    -tank with a class ability such as kai heal or tarot
                    -stop the dsb with a class ability such as mind throw, augment, prone absolve
                    -dodge half a dsb at the start of a break chain. (breaks at 11, prepped at 10, you DSL LEFT LEG DELPH DELPH, hit/mis leg broken, still standing)
                    -3 minutes to somehow work around -all- of that.

                    Yes knight is stupid strong in low-mid tiers where three-six dsls kills everything. That's ridiculous, that should change. But so should the impotence that is knight at higher tiers.

                    Either make our prep less ridiculous or make our finisher (not even a kill) less avoidable. 

                    Thus ends my rant. Feel free to tear me apart as I know plenty of people think Knight is 'fine' or 'in a good place' and to those people I sadly shake my head and say you probably haven't played it seriously in a while.

                    NOTE: Please assume we're not talking about Infernal here because Infernal is Infernal and vivisect is vivisexy and I'm jealous of it.

                    tl;dr
                    Knight changes soon pls.

                    - Limb Counter - Fracture Relapsing -
                    "Honestly, I just love that it counts limbs." - Mizik Corten
                    LumAerekArador
                  10. CooperCooper Member Posts: 5,336 @@ - Legendary Achaean
                    Aktillum said:
                    am I correct in assuming monks are in a bad place atm with limb damage nerf + 3 minute reset? From an outside perspective it appears like preps now take longer to set up but shorter to reset
                    You're wrong.

                    Rhk + punches still means very fast prep for monks. Artied Dragon level health in scs without knuckles is roughly 11 punches now, up from roughly 8 or 9 depending on health. At the highest levels of opponents it means an extra rhk combo per limb prep, or about 10 seconds for a quad break setup.

                    If you have an opponent that is just running away/leaving the room constantly, just don't fight them, because there's absolutely nothing monks can do against people walking out of the room (which is the biggest problem with monks).

                    AktillumSherazadDraqoomArador
                  11. JacenJacen Member Posts: 2,306 @@ - Legendary Achaean
                    So, I'm still lost with this limb damage thing. I tested on a target with literally no defenses, observed that there was no regen going on or anything, no armor, no favor. I found that a DRS JBP = 1.17 UNS JBP. Testing on a different target, 4122 health, I found that 10 DRS JBP broke, while 13 UNS JBP broke.

                    This means that, in units of UNS JBP, I did between 1200 and 1300 damage while UNS, and while in DRS, I did between 1053 and 1170 damage. Numbers are obviously not reconcilable. 

                    I don't even know how to continue from here.
                    image
                  12. RakonRakon Member Posts: 267 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
                    Jacen said:
                    So, I'm still lost with this limb damage thing. I tested on a target with literally no defenses, observed that there was no regen going on or anything, no armor, no favor. I found that a DRS JBP = 1.17 UNS JBP. Testing on a different target, 4122 health, I found that 10 DRS JBP broke, while 13 UNS JBP broke.

                    This means that, in units of UNS JBP, I did between 1200 and 1300 damage while UNS, and while in DRS, I did between 1053 and 1170 damage. Numbers are obviously not reconcilable. 

                    I don't even know how to continue from here.
                    The numbers are not linear. There's an upper bound/ceiling, and a lower bound/floor. Find where your numbers go wonky, and apply that. 
                    Xith
                  13. BukariinBukariin Member Posts: 438 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
                    Jacen said:
                    So, I'm still lost with this limb damage thing. I tested on a target with literally no defenses, observed that there was no regen going on or anything, no armor, no favor. I found that a DRS JBP = 1.17 UNS JBP. Testing on a different target, 4122 health, I found that 10 DRS JBP broke, while 13 UNS JBP broke.

                    This means that, in units of UNS JBP, I did between 1200 and 1300 damage while UNS, and while in DRS, I did between 1053 and 1170 damage. Numbers are obviously not reconcilable. 

                    I don't even know how to continue from here.
                    DRS punches deal more damage.

                    Armor has no effect.  Regen has no effect.  Favors have no effect.  Your STR has no effect.  Their Dex and Avoidance have no effect.  All that matters is their max health and your stance.
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