Eleusis vs Mhaldor, the Good and the Bad!

Ruth

The earlier engagement was sort of funny though. Go to kill Eleusis, random Targossians jump in. Kill Targossians for jumping in, get Ashtani in because they were killing the Targossians and didn't want anyone to steal their quarries. Kill Ashtani for interfering, get Eleusians (Lothiac and occasionally Chalos) who interfere with the Prelatorian Highway fights. So, back we went to killing Eleusis. 

Zii

Someone pay for my class change so I'm not just displacing people into someone else's blades.  Its all a complete loss every single fight. 

Alchemist sucks.  I don't even want to log in for the 15 minutes I get, cause all I'm going to do is stand there and displace.  or be first targetted cause Homunculus block

Traelor

Zii said:

Someone pay for my class change so I'm not just displacing people into someone else's blades.  Its all a complete loss every single fight. 

Alchemist sucks.  I don't even want to log in for the 15 minutes I get, cause all I'm going to do is stand there and displace.  or be first targetted cause Homunculus block

Area-wide comm blackout is pretty spiffy if used strategically. Also, you can leave your homunculus in the room where the melee is and move a few rooms away to displace raiders onto guards. Alchy doesn't have the same group utility as a Monk, but what it has can seriously fuck up a battle plan.

Shirszae

Can homunculus block if he is not in the room thought?

Traelor

Shirszae said:

Can homunculus block if he is not in the room thought?

I think if you attack with it and then lose it before you leave, it does. It's been a while since I was Alchy so I'm not 100% sure.

Zii

Homunculus block only works when the alchemist is with it.  You can only command in the same area, but you can listen and speak from anywhere.

Disrupt isn't useful in 80% of situations, because our side needs to communicate when bouncing borders.  I'll get lucky, and someone won't prepare for displace, or I'll arrive before anyone notices and start yanking people into the group, but once they wise up and fix it, I'm just following the team leader.  

I don't get gains, I only take losses.  I'm not interested in raging in my free time between jobs.  Have fun.

Melodie

Already very very tired of this. Unable to go anywhere except guards, and then can't even go there when an in-city raid starts. I spent over 90% of my time defending from exterms, from random ganking on my character, from defending in general, in and out of city. Experience doesn't mean crap, but I've lost almost all of my time, and definitely all of my fun. Quitting army isn't really a viable option with the atmosphere and how things work. There's pretty much no rest and no restraint. I can't even harvest except maybe 5-8am or so, and I'm only up then because it's too hot to sleep until about then.

I'm probably going to have to play other games because this is seriously pushing on my anger and just dreadfully not fun at all, and the way it was started is just the cherry on top of the shit sundae.

Saeva

Melodie said:

Already very very tired of this. Unable to go anywhere except guards, and then can't even go there when an in-city raid starts. I spent over 90% of my time defending from exterms, from random ganking on my character, from defending in general, in and out of city. Experience doesn't mean crap, but I've lost almost all of my time, and definitely all of my fun. Quitting army isn't really a viable option with the atmosphere and how things work. There's pretty much no rest and no restraint. I can't even harvest except maybe 5-8am or so, and I'm only up then because it's too hot to sleep until about then.

I'm probably going to have to play other games because this is seriously pushing on my anger and just dreadfully not fun at all, and the way it was started is just the cherry on top of the shit sundae.

but who is going to smother me

Alrena

Melodie said:

Already very very tired of this. Unable to go anywhere except guards, and then can't even go there when an in-city raid starts. I spent over 90% of my time defending from exterms, from random ganking on my character, from defending in general, in and out of city. Experience doesn't mean crap, but I've lost almost all of my time, and definitely all of my fun. Quitting army isn't really a viable option with the atmosphere and how things work. There's pretty much no rest and no restraint. I can't even harvest except maybe 5-8am or so, and I'm only up then because it's too hot to sleep until about then.

I'm probably going to have to play other games because this is seriously pushing on my anger and just dreadfully not fun at all, and the way it was started is just the cherry on top of the shit sundae.

After extensive exterms, Mhaldor raids. Two tanks dismantled, ok. People qq or afk, they had enough fighting.

Mhaldor exterms more. Maybe they'll quit if they realize we have nobody to respond.

...

Nope.

Kinilan

So what you're saying is Eleusis quits already?

Shirszae

Kinilan said:

So what you're saying is Eleusis quits already?

I think they are just saying playing with someone who was no restraint whatsoever is no fun.

Mishgul

Is restraint bad rp though

Achimrst

Mishgul said:

Is restraint bad rp though

Is Exterming the forest really attacking Eleusis?

Kinilan

Achimrst said:

Mishgul said:

Is restraint bad rp though

Is Exterming the forest really attacking Eleusis?

Yes, yes it is.

Aerek

Mishgul said:

Is restraint bad rp though

Roleplay only works when you have people that want to roleplay with you. If you don't show restraint, you end up roleplaying by yourself.

Nakari

given the nature of forest conflict, I'm honestly surprised that this thread has seen as much positivity as it has

Nim

Melodie said:

Quitting army isn't really a viable option with the atmosphere and how things work.

It's like, people keep complaining about this sort of thing, but more and more orgs decide it's a wonderful idea to implement.

Like, not everyone likes combat? Let's push everyone into it! That'll make this game more fun!

Bukariin

Nim said:

Melodie said:

Quitting army isn't really a viable option with the atmosphere and how things work.

It's like, people keep complaining about this sort of thing, but more and more orgs decide it's a wonderful idea to implement.

Like, not everyone likes combat? Let's push everyone into it! That'll make this game more fun!

Nobody is being forced into combat.

Saeva

To be fair... we all saw this coming. Ravien had to know that when she declared war this was going to happen. It's not like Mhaldor is known for taking it easy. I don't support no restraint but, again... it's war? Could have just left things as they were.

Melodie

Wasn't really my or anyone else's decision beyond Ravien's, but I'd rather not drag all of that here, as there's nothing to be done about it now since its begun.

I'm not going to write paragraphs about it because it's useless, but the main jist is, there should be a balance between "war, war, fuck them up!" and "these are people who are also playing a game on the other side of the screen". Right now it favours the former over the latter (in fact, in the middle of typing this, I got sniped/backstabbed while sitting on guards). That on top of the trolling attitudes I have to listen to OOCly about it all just makes me ... unpleasant.

Edit: My state of annoyance should not allow bad grammar.

Chiam

Melodie said:

Already very very tired of this. Unable to go anywhere except guards, and then can't even go there when an in-city raid starts. I spent over 90% of my time defending from exterms, from random ganking on my character, from defending in general, in and out of city. Experience doesn't mean crap, but I've lost almost all of my time, and definitely all of my fun. Quitting army isn't really a viable option with the atmosphere and how things work. There's pretty much no rest and no restraint. I can't even harvest except maybe 5-8am or so, and I'm only up then because it's too hot to sleep until about then.

I'm probably going to have to play other games because this is seriously pushing on my anger and just dreadfully not fun at all, and the way it was started is just the cherry on top of the shit sundae.

@melodie

Don't be upset I died tons and wasn't able to step out of the city for a short period of time. Plus Targossas and Ashtan's contracts, etc. Despite steadily dropping in levels, I'm still enjoying it though.

edit: lol. just after I read and posted this and switched back to Mudlet

(Party): Isaiah says, "Melodie sniped north with Delphinium."
(Party): Isaiah says, "Melodie sniped north with Delphinium."
(Party): Isaiah says, "Melodie sniped north with Delphinium."
(Party): Isaiah says, "Melodie sniped south with Delphinium."
(Party): Isaiah says, "Melodie sniped south with Delphinium."
(Party): Isaiah says, "Melodie sniped down with Delphinium."

sense melodie
You close your eyes momentarily and extend the range of your vision, seeking out the presence
of Melodie.
You see that Melodie is at A garden path.  (6542)  (Cyrene)  (6542)  (Cyrene) 

oh well

Melodie

That was after Micositu, who tried once, and then Isaiah twice, all in the making of the last twenty minutes!

And I wouldn't mind if I was unable to step out for a short time, or even a day. But I literally cannot step out anywhere without getting jumped, primarily by Naga by a few times by others (you and Hasar earlier, for instance, when I was checking on extermed rooms in the EI). It's just how it's been. I can't go out, and even when I'm logged in, I'm usually forced into conflict one way or another.

It is what it is.

Mazzington

I've definitely lost some experience so far, but that's mostly because I'm choosing to put myself in those situations in order to learn more about combat. I have definitely made some errors that turned out fatal not only for myself but others (sorry @Yae and @Melodie‌!) Regardless, I've been having a lot of fun and I must give a shout out to @Isaiah‌ for being the only Mhaldorian to actually communicate with me so far, and the ensuing duel was very memorable for me despite my death. It was refreshing to have a bit of back and forth with the enemy instead of just attacking on sight.

On the flip side, I can see how a lot of people would not want to be around at all. The EI has pretty much become a hellscape where you're certain to get confronted, and a lot of non-com people are clueless as to how exactly they should react in this situation. Nonetheless, this has been in the making for hundreds of years. For those even remotely interested in combat, I suggest you make peace with the idea of dying a bunch in the name of Nature and get in the fray. Mistakes will be made, but you'll be better for them. I'm looking at you, @Ainia‌, it would be great to fight out there alongside you!

Furthermore, @Ravien and @Ruth could help ease some of these pains by hastening their meeting and agreeing to some basic Geneva Convention-like terms and a definitive measure of victory. I feel like this would go a long way for all parties involved, and could possibly help non-coms in both cities continue their activities without being PKed back hours of hunting.

tldr; Still having fun, understand why a bunch of people aren't, both leaders should come to some basic terms that make IC and OOC sense.

Ruth

I think there's definitely going to be a step up of aggressions and a drop in restraint since it is a war. Things were fine as it was against Eleusis before the hostile declaration, where there were a good amount of raids, exterminations (actually, I don't think we did much exterminations for a good while until this) and shrine destructions.

Also, war is sort of a consistent thing I guess. You can't turn it off just because you don't feel like it, which is one of the problems presented with the lack of a proper war system.There's an effort not to target non-army targets however, if they haven't been involved with war efforts. Being declared upon also means that Mhaldor, being the city they are, has the initiative of showing up the other side to make sure they 'know their place'. So people take up extermination again because it does target Nature, for which Eleusis went to war for.

Not to worry though, we're still trying to set things up between both of us. It's just time zone that is making it hard to.

Jurixe

As far as I know @Ruth is trying her best to get the meeting going, just depends on @Ravien's availability.

The war declaration came as a surprise to all of us - no public warning announce, no particular event that triggered it, no...nothing, apparently even on the side of the Eleusians. I'm sure Ravien had her reasons, I just don't know them so I won't comment.

This became a far longer rant/monologue than I expected, so I put it in a spoiler. Warning though, it is really tl;dr.

[spoiler]Having been through a few wars now in my time and seen roughly the same cycle loop itself over and over, I have to say I am quite skeptical of war in Achaea as it stands at the moment. Short of putting really strange mechanical constraints like 'stop exterming when the engagement lasts over one hour, less than 5 defenders are present and haven't responded for 15 minutes', which people will find ways to get around anyway 'oh they have 6 people now' or straight up not honour 'our mission is to burn everything to the ground, let's grief them into submission!', it is extremely hard to police something like this to make it fun for all - and naturally, nobody wants to 'lose' in a conflict, which makes taking a step back even more difficult. Plus then you have the even more complicated issues of timezones and everyone wanting to get in on the action at different times and it starts to get a little crazy.

I may be pessimistic here but it is simply not possible to depend upon 'common sense' or 'good faith'. Every single 'lame' move that has been complained about, from either side, is always a response to some other lame move that the other side inevitably did first. The problem is, what is lame? What is too much? Oh it's lame but did they deserve it? It is nigh impossible for everyone to agree on these definitions, particularly coming from people with such varied playstyles and habits. I have and often will sit out of engagements/tell people to pull back if I think it's been going on a while or if we're too strong, but it looks just as strange for Mhaldorian RP as people not defending in raids. 

In my mind, the best solution would be simply to have a Hostile/Hostile option in terms of formal city relations (why is it necessary to have Hostile/Hostile become War!/War!?) or simply take 'war' as a declaration of hostilities and have things continue as they are now, with infrequent raids and skirmishes. The whole concept of setting it to 'War' status is, to me, purely an OOC mechanic - possibly to activate the 1/3rd exp loss? If so, perhaps a better option would be to ignore the free pk caveat, which might actually encourage people to join the army because the decreased xp loss would make it worth it.

I have considered all forms of trying to balance a 'war system', but run up against problems every time - making it a CTF-style conflict would mean that one side would probably be screwed in terms of timezones, but drawing it out over x amount of days would probably only condense all the 'griefiness' and, in fact, probably encourage it tenfold since you now only have a limited window to achieve your objective. 

I think it seems a general agreement that there definitely should be a time limit and perhaps a shorter window for the conflict in general, so in the absence of a better solution maybe a CTF-style battle (ala the huge Mhaldor raid during Bal'met) would be the best solution. It's a few hours of intense action that doesn't overly disrupt your life too much, still has an epic feeling and could spawn lots of great stories, and you can even give it a cool name like 'Battle of the Ithmias' or something. Nobody (to my knowledge) quotes the actual drawn out wars as being fun, but short battles like the Xhaiden Dale one, the Bal'met raid, and icon wars are always a popular subject to retell.

Even if nothing comes of this, perhaps it would be a good idea for leaders looking to start future engagements to sit down OOCly and agree to terms beforehand before actually throwing citizens into the fray and trying to figure out terms later. Unlimited conflict tends to bring out the absolute worst in people, and without an end goal, it just stretches on for as long as it takes until the winning side decides on some arbitrary finishing move, or the losing side finally capitulates (rarely if ever happens). In the process you lose productivity in other areas, relationships deteriorate, and potentially even players stop playing until it's over, which is not the point of a game. There needs to be a real effort to shift the focus away from 'griefing the other side into the ground' as a condition for winning, or out-and-out war will always be a hugely lopsided affair in terms of player enjoyment that will almost inevitably be detrimental to the game in general.[/spoiler]

Micositu

I've come to the conclusion that Mhaldor has already won this war.

This is why:

1. There's really nothing Eleusis can do to us that "hurts" us. You can kill our guards, blow up our rooms kill us ect. However, none of those things really bother the Mhaldorian players. Quite the opposite really, I enjoy being raided and being the losing side more often.  

2. The easiest way to put it, Mhaldor's player base is crazy. We will happily die 10 times just to get the dirty loosians once, even if we know it makes their life hell.

3. We have the Naga, who will stop at nothing to win, push every limit and actually try to make Eleusisians lives miserable. Eleusis has no counter or even a defense against this.

4. Timezones seem to clash terribly and Eleusis' best fighters aren't here when the Mhaldor pain-train-of-earrings-of-sinope is in full force. So typically Eleusis' mid-tier fighters are going up against Mhaldor's best.

5. Every front in this war is combat, Eleusis has no goal. Mhaldor doesn't care about dying, and even if they do win. Mhaldor makes sure the cost is far too great to want to keep it up.

So basically I've yea, we already won.

Rangor

There always is. Some people just can't hold back! This is not directed at @ayoxele at all.

Just keep in mind that wars don't last forever. Even if the win conditions are never met (Sartan won't really die), we'll still eventually just say that ok, we can't win so we'll settle for a draw.

Ruth

Don't worry, @Rangor. I totally know you mean @Ayoxele. 

@Ayoxele, @Ayoxele, @Ayoxele.

There, I have now cursed him. Now he will come to haunt this thread.

Rangor

@micositu Wars can't be won. See I don't care if you exterminate rooms, it actually does nothing to us. I don't care if you kill guards either. I'm happy that you blow up some of our rooms..

So now what are you going to do to win this war? Grief players into quitting the game?

Wars will be more fun if you don't try to "win" it.

If you want us to go the targossas way of "let's kill all their guards and pretend we won the war", we can do that. But it's not really any more fun. I prefer to have a high intensity of skirmishes/raids for a period of time. When we all get tired of it we'll end the war and go back to normal.

Trey

No, pretty sure Mhaldor can win, brah.