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Eleusis vs Mhaldor, the Good and the Bad!

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  • HaliosHalios Member Posts: 471 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Sena said:

    the average Eleusian cares a lot more about losing (your posts are a good example of that) than the average Mhaldorian
    @Sena A Mhaldorian does not have to care about winning, because it's guaranteed by game mechanics.

    Your character is old enough that you should really know how dumb of a statement this is in the grand scheme of things.

    TharvisPraxidesShirszaeMycen
  • SilasSilas Member Posts: 2,542 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited August 2014
    Any side can win any war. It all depends on how dirty you want to play.

    I'm interested to see what this meeting between Ruth and Ravien turns up, though, because I've always avoided these OOC war discussions in the past because setting war "goals" seemed kind of silly. Santar's idea was interesting, but it all seemed a bit arbitrary.

    All that really needs to happen for the war to progress, though, is for Ravien to set out her, and by extension Eleusis's, expectations for this war to see if both sides have a common end to fight for (eradication of shrines, extermination/protection of EI, etc.). With the way it is, I have no idea what Eleusis's goals are so I have no idea what they're fighting to achieve.

    Maybe Eleusians know more and are just not saying, which would make it difficult for Mhaldor to be fighting on the same front and could easily lead to either or both sides declaring victory in the war when they're both fighting for completely different things. Just seems a bit of a mess right now.

    As an aside, this is the sort of problem that an extended village loyalty system would help to alleviate. Fighting for territory sets a very concrete goal for both sides of any given war, and having one or more villages (and thereby the admins) directly involved will help keep it fun for both parties.

    SenaHalos
  • HaliosHalios Member Posts: 471 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Silas said:
    Any side can win any war. It all depends on how dirty you want to play.

    I'm interested to see what this meeting between Ruth and Ravien turns up, though, because I've always avoided these OOC war discussions in the past because setting war "goals" seemed kind of silly. Santar's idea was interesting, but it all seemed a bit arbitrary.

    All that really needs to happen for the war to progress, though, is for Ravien to set out her, and by extension Eleusis's, expectations for this war to see if both sides have a common end to fight for (eradication of shrines, extermination/protection of EI, etc.). With the way it is, I have no idea what Eleusis's goals are so I have no idea what they're fighting to achieve.

    Maybe Eleusians know more and are just not saying, which would make it difficult for Mhaldor to be fighting on the same front and could easily lead to either or both sides declaring victory in the war when they're both fighting for completely different things. Just seems a bit of a mess right now.

    As an aside, this is the sort of problem that an extended village loyalty system would help to alleviate. Fighting for territory sets a very concrete goal for both sides of any given war, and having one or more villages (and thereby the admins) directly involved will help keep it fun for both parties.

    OH SNAP SON U SAYIN DAT MAGICAL WORD LANDMARKING?

    SilasJhaeliMael
  • HerenicusHerenicus The Western FrontMember Posts: 1,734 @@ - Legendary Achaean

    Limiting Army RP to those who are enthusiastic about and constantly PK could be the only solution, given the game mechanics and player attitudes about restraint. 

    Aktillum
  • AktillumAktillum PhilippinesMember Posts: 1,368 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited August 2014
    Herenicus said:

    Limiting Army RP to those who are enthusiastic about and constantly PK could be the only solution, given the game mechanics and player attitudes about restraint. 

    There seriously needs to be some better in-game explanation about city armies because currently any yahoo who thinks it makes their character look more loyal for the cause runs to the barracks and enlists without realizing its basically a factional version of becoming a mark (open PK). Then we get rants like IM GONNA PLAY SOMETHING ELSE BECAUSE I ENLISTED TO BE OPEN PK AND NOW IM OPEN PK AND I H8 IT.

    Like, maybe a big, capitalized JOINING THE ARMY MAKES YOU OPEN PK DURING WAR TIME at the top of HELP ARMY.


    Bukariin
  • SenaSena Member Posts: 3,957 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited August 2014
    Athelas said:
    @Sena A Mhaldorian does not have to care about winning, because it's guaranteed by game mechanics.
    Imagine if, instead of Eleusis being the city that defends the forests, it was Ashtan, at the height of its strength. Even having to deal with exterminations, they would still likely win against any city. And even if they lost, they would enjoy the fight anyways.

    Sure, exterminations are a disadvantage, but game mechanics don't decide who wins a war, players do (and they don't even always agree on who won; there have been wars where both sides claim they won, or one side claims they won while others say "that's stupid, no you didn't", but the war is over anyways). And I even agree with you that, in a war of attrition, Eleusis will almost certainly lose (but again, not just because of game mechanics). A war of attrition isn't the only option though, even if the city leaders weren't meeting to agree on terms.
    JhuiSherazad
  • AktillumAktillum PhilippinesMember Posts: 1,368 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited August 2014
    Sena said:
    in a war of attrition, Eleusis will almost certainly lose (but again, not because of game mechanics)

    I have to disagree. Eleusis has had its ups and downs over the years, we've had some stellar combatants (that are no longer active, or left Eleusis) over the years that made Eleusis pretty formidable. Names like Jhui, Batang, Zeon, and others I can't think of at the moment (not because they didn't exist). There was a point when Eleusis could handle Ashtan pretty well, and raided Ashtan's icons or raided Ashtan or Mhaldor a lot more frequently.

    Eleusis' current atmosphere, sure, we might "lose" a war of attrition if some of the rants here are any indication, but maybe some top-tier(s) combatant(s) will decide to join Eleusis, and turn the tides. Anything can happen.

    Its also really dumb (this isn't directed at Sena specifically) to place "win" and "lose" goals on wars in Achaea. Our factions are opposed, and whether or not we're "officially" at war, thematically we're at war, so placing silly goals like X number of rooms exterminated or who blew up more rooms, is so meaningless in the grand scheme of things.

    Look at it this way - in old medieval times, when nations were at war, the victor got to rape and pillage the loser and claim their land and enslave their people. In Achaea, the victor of a war gets what? E-peen bragging rights?


    SenaPraxides
  • SenaSena Member Posts: 3,957 @@ - Legendary Achaean

    I didn't mean that Eleusis couldn't hold their own, just that if it only came down to which city gives up first, it probably won't be Mhaldor.

    AktillumRuth
  • AthelasAthelas Cape Town South AfricaMember Posts: 293 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Herenicus said:

    I think @Athelas was expecting fun goals to pursue such that would advance a winning narrative for Eleusis, without requiring him to develop an OOC interest in coding or whatever. Judging from @Melodie's perspective, it seems fair to agree that the fun could and maybe should be distributed more evenly.

    @Herenicus You assume much and think wrong.

    I've earned my living developing software using C and C++ on Microsoft, Macintosh and POSIX based systems since 1994. I don't have to develop an OOC interest in coding, I'm fanatic about it. I have 4 active Open Source projects and enjoy tinkering with Arduino and Raspberry Pi.

    Right now, the system I'm using for playing Achaea, is a heavily modified Onmipave, changed to suite my tastes and altered to work with server-side curing. One of the draws towards Achea, for me, is the coding aspect.

    My concern here is not about combat or PvP even. It's about the fact that I as a player (note!!!! not Athelas as a character in game) do not see how Eleusis can win a war against Mhaldor, or any other city, that has the ability to exterminate forests.

    That is what every single post I've made in this thread is about! How do you logistically defend a front, that is literally every forest area on every continent, while the enemy only has to defend it's gates?

    Praxides
  • RangorRangor Member Posts: 3,201 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited August 2014

    If you ask Rangor IG, he will not tell you that when you see an extermination, the first thing you must do is to rush to the room to try and stop it.. He'll tell you to def up, group with fellow defenders, assess the situation and make a call on the feasibility of stopping said extermination and how to go about it.


    There's been plenty of times where Rangor's made the call to "forest bind the forest, stay on guards. We can't win that fight."


    Also, if you get tired of the fights and they go on for hours. Log off, do something else, play more when it dies down or the other day. :)

    image
    SherazadExelethril
  • DaeirDaeir AustraliaMember Posts: 6,276 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    The win conditions are set by either side, be it "fight until one side surrenders from losing 80% of its active playerbase to wartime grief" or "fight until one side demonstrates martial supremacy in a series of organized fights", the latter unfortunately never occurring to my knowledge. If it did, war may actually become a fun affair for more than a few days of play.

    Not every exterminated room has to be immediately rejuvenated and replanted. You can do significantly more damage to Mhaldor by forcing sanctions and eventually chipping away at core service rooms (banks, chokepoints, etc) with tanks than they can do by exterminating even a whole forest. The choice to immediately waste large quantities of time and effort on rejuvenating land which is going to just get exterminated again is one that is being made by Eleusis. Bring Mhaldor to ruin instead - go for a coveted l3 tank at Stygian crossroads and utterly decimate the front end of the city. Eradicate any Sartan shrine presence in the realms and cover the Isle in Artemis/Gaia shrines for non-stop worldburn or whatever. There's lots of things you can do that don't involve smashing your head against a wall repeatedly, where you have no chance of coming out on top.

    War in Achaea is not ideal, but people seem to fall back on OOC complaining when they are not having fun instead of trying a new approach. If exterminations are becoming unbearable, triage the situation and deal with them later on when you can. I know Eleusis has it in them to do it. You just have to believe.
    Siduri
  • DaeirDaeir AustraliaMember Posts: 6,276 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Saw that in the Targ-Mhaldor war and participated in it a little bit as well. Lost two core people to the ensuing burnout that came from that. Things weren't ever really the same again afterwards.

  • AthelasAthelas Cape Town South AfricaMember Posts: 293 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent

    @Aktillum Agreed, and I have done that. I'm also thoroughly aware that extermination as an RP mechanism is essential.

    But, from every single post in response to mine, it's blatantly obvious that Extermination as a skill, is thoroughly OP as a game mechanic. Note the amount of responses I get, and then see if you get a single one that actually counters my argument.

    PraxidesRangor
  • AktillumAktillum PhilippinesMember Posts: 1,368 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited August 2014
    Athelas said:

    But, from every single post in response to mine, it's blatantly obvious that Extermination as a skill, is thoroughly OP as a game mechanic. Note the amount of responses I get, and then see if you get a single one that actually counters my argument.

    I don't understand what you mean by "OP as a game mechanic". OP=overpowered, something so tremendously unbalanced that it gives the wielder an enormous advantage over the other side. Like, a 500/500/500 rapier. 

    The rooms rejuvenate themselves, and usually the exterminators are one or two people looking to bait someone into a death-trap. If you're saying that its OP the other side has a mechanic to bait people, my counter is that you shut down their mechanic's effectiveness by ceasing to care. In this situation, ceasing to care =/= conceding defeat, it allows you to explore other avenues of retribution.


    Rangor
  • AthelasAthelas Cape Town South AfricaMember Posts: 293 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent

    One thing I am thoroughly impressed by though, is the level of maturity in the responses I'm getting.

    Thank you all, it's amazing to be part of such a community.

    Praxides
  • RuthRuth SingaporeMember Posts: 2,700 @@ - Legendary Achaean

    I'm actually hosting the war discussion ICly, because it wouldn't make sense for me to post publicly about the meeting and then hold it OOCly.

    I'm expecting it to go, "Mhaldor may be cruel and unforgiving, but contrary to expectations, we can be gracious to those who submit to the Truths. We will spare your village in the war, if Eleusis accedes to the demands we have for them. As tribute, we expect to collect X and Y and Z from Eleusis. If you resist, we will simply claim them by force." Either way, X, Y and Z will be Mhaldor's win conditions.

    I'm not very sure how Eleusis can portray their win conditions as. Maybe as "That which you took for granted - life given by Nature - will be claimed by Her proponents and given back to the Earth. As such, those whom would advocate the perversion and selfishness of their Nature-granted gift will pay with X, Y and Z as penance, to nourish the land and rejuvenate it."

    I personally don't think a draw would be too bad either way, if it happens. Both sides would very likely construe the results as a victory for them then, with a need for further improvement.

    /forumRP

    "Mummy, I'm hungry, but there's no one to eat! :C"

     

  • KardalKardal BelgiumMember Posts: 40 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished

    You guys want a rant? Here is one!

    As a runie war is goddamn expensive :s Inks flying everywhere!

    That will be all.

    AlcinaeSaibelWessux
  • JukilianJukilian Member Posts: 1,579 @ - Epic Achaean

    @Athelas

    Technically, there aren't any game mechanics in place for any side to win any war. Eleusis or Mhaldor. As per what people have said before, how a war is waged and won is dependent on RP.

    The way I'm assessing this is that you believe that Eleusis entered a war where there is no possibility of winning. There are no mechanics to it, as other people have said it is all RP. That is why Ruth and Ravien are meeting, I would wager. So that it doesn't become a repeat of the Mhaldor-Shallam war of old. If wars could be won on exterminate and exterminate alone, this war would already be over, with Mhaldor the victor. However that is not the case here.

    You are saying Eleusis can't win - well, they won't win if people don't try?

    If anything, I commend Eleusis and Mhaldor for having the guts to actually enter a war.

  • ExelethrilExelethril Member Posts: 3,350 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    This war is just untimely and feels like a rushed/sudden decision, really. Most of our fighters are off-season or are busy with other rl things. If Ravien had started the war around the Y650 event or after the Reckoning where we had more active players, there probably won't be that many Mhaldorian guards/shrines left.

    [ SnB PvP Guide | Link ]

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    RangorMelodie
  • RuthRuth SingaporeMember Posts: 2,700 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    This war is just untimely and feels like a rushed/sudden decision, really. Most of our fighters are off-season or are busy with other rl things. If Ravien had started the war around the Y650 event or after the Reckoning where we had more active players, there probably won't be that many Mhaldorian guards/shrines left.

    It's busy for us too! We just got out from finishing our own events, plus most of the leadership is still busy with house renaissance concepts and all that shiz, but we still gotta deal with crap from pretty much all factions (ashtan/targ/eleusis) still. Just as untimely to us as it is to yours!

    Also, Eleusis melee freaking hurts man. Not walking in rooms where it's a trumpet/tailsweep/trample/hydra bind/stormhammer/incinerate 3-second kill. D:

    "Mummy, I'm hungry, but there's no one to eat! :C"

     

    PraxidesSherazad
  • MishgulMishgul ROTHERHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMMember Posts: 5,314 @@ - Legendary Achaean

    Mhaldor didn't really expect a war at this point to be fair, but what is, is. 

    Speaking of mechanics, not all our combatants have blackwind (never blackwind against druids, it's a bad idea and will lead to your death) or evade, but we do have significant advantages in certain situations. Eleusis can get into advantageous situations but they don't really have any blademasters or runewardens that are consistently around that can take advantage of sentinel/grove hindering to nail people down. It's just unfortunate more than anything. 


    -

    One of the symptoms of an approaching nervous breakdown is the belief that one's work is terribly important

    As drawn by Shayde
    hic locus est ubi mors gaudet succurrere vitae
    Sherazad
  • NimNim Member Posts: 2,015 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Win what? How do you "win a war?" What is the war over / for? What strategic/tactical objectives were planned out? Etc.
  • MishgulMishgul ROTHERHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMMember Posts: 5,314 @@ - Legendary Achaean

    Also we assume that everyone wants to fight, which can skew ability and competence up a lot too. Eleusis probably has a lot less in it's favour in terms of people that want to fight compared to Mhaldor, which is a city that likes to dominate people.

    -

    One of the symptoms of an approaching nervous breakdown is the belief that one's work is terribly important

    As drawn by Shayde
    hic locus est ubi mors gaudet succurrere vitae
    Alrena
  • MishgulMishgul ROTHERHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMMember Posts: 5,314 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Nim said:
    Win what? How do you "win a war?" What is the war over / for? What strategic/tactical objectives were planned out? Etc.

    When the a-bomb is dropped on x city apparently.

    -

    One of the symptoms of an approaching nervous breakdown is the belief that one's work is terribly important

    As drawn by Shayde
    hic locus est ubi mors gaudet succurrere vitae
  • NimNim Member Posts: 2,015 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Mishgul said:
    Nim said:
    Win what? How do you "win a war?" What is the war over / for? What strategic/tactical objectives were planned out? Etc.

    When the a-bomb is dropped on x city apparently.

    The Bal'met event alluded that a city's patrons must be defeated to annihilate a city, so the plan is to kill a God or two? Brave - I like it! However without another God's backing, it's doomed to fail. Even with such militaristic divine patronage, it's unlikely at best.
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