What Happened To You Today?

Archaeon

Lol      

Entaro

Achilles said:

Today I found out that Targossas was intentionally designed to be the most raid-able city.  I always thought it ended up this way because some non-com had too much input but turns out it was deliberate by the admin/staff at the time.

Go f**k yourselves with a rusty fork whoever designed or supported the design and layout of the city.

Why are you always so angry?  Are you ok? Maybe you should take a break for your own sake. 

Sobriquet

Achilles said:

So...  you weren't there ... I have it from people who were involved (I will leave it up to them to participate) that they got overruled and that's why Targ is so spread out.   These things should be reviewed periodically for balance purposes.

I dont even remember when we got descent added in, keep in mind area wide dopple, kai choke and infinite mind throw was still a thing too.

This for sure is wrong. Doppleganger is LOS only and 3 rooms max.

Saonji

Sobriquet said:

Achilles said:

So...  you weren't there ... I have it from people who were involved (I will leave it up to them to participate) that they got overruled and that's why Targ is so spread out.   These things should be reviewed periodically for balance purposes.

I dont even remember when we got descent added in, keep in mind area wide dopple, kai choke and infinite mind throw was still a thing too.

This for sure is wrong. Doppleganger is LOS only and 3 rooms max.

Key word is WAS still a thing.

Sobriquet

Area wide =! 3 rooms, though, unless my maths are off...?


Edit - oh..... taxi for Sob!....  I get ya. 

Achilles

The layout of Targossas has always been a hot mess that doesn't even play to the strength of the faction abilities and strengths.  

@Entaro as I said we just assumed some non com that never had to defend a city designed it without any firsthand experience but never thought they intentionally made it more raidable.  That colors things quite differently.

I'm asking for a long overdue review of the layouts, LoS, rooms with numerous exits, city density.  Targ has some rooms 50 moves away from one another I believe, Sundown Jetty to the Harbour is 40 rooms away.  

Achilles

Sobriquet said:

Achilles said:

So...  you weren't there ... I have it from people who were involved (I will leave it up to them to participate) that they got overruled and that's why Targ is so spread out.   These things should be reviewed periodically for balance purposes.

I dont even remember when we got descent added in, keep in mind area wide dopple, kai choke and infinite mind throw was still a thing too.

This for sure is wrong. Doppleganger is LOS only and 3 rooms max.

Up until about 2014 you could dopple areawhere in the city, you could also meteor/star.  Doppelgangers could also throw hanged man.  With no sewers or descent when Targossas opened in 2013, you had to sit indoors, behind a closed door (otherwise you'd get mind thrown) shielded to avoid infinite kai chokes/dopple warps.  Literally shooting fish in a barrel.

Adrik

Achilles said:

Sobriquet said:

Achilles said:

So...  you weren't there ... I have it from people who were involved (I will leave it up to them to participate) that they got overruled and that's why Targ is so spread out.   These things should be reviewed periodically for balance purposes.

I dont even remember when we got descent added in, keep in mind area wide dopple, kai choke and infinite mind throw was still a thing too.

This for sure is wrong. Doppleganger is LOS only and 3 rooms max.

Up until about 2014 you could dopple areawhere in the city, you could also meteor/star.  Doppelgangers could also throw hanged man.  With no sewers or descent when Targossas opened in 2013, you had to sit indoors, behind a closed door (otherwise you'd get mind thrown) shielded to avoid infinite kai chokes/dopple warps.  Literally shooting fish in a barrel.

So.. what exactly about the layout is 'bad'?

You have two indoor rooms that block off access to about 70% of the city, leaving it so that it requires a Serpent, Airlord, Occultist, or Necromancer to get past this room (no just la-de-da flying past this blockade). One of your popular raid spots (Southdown) has a massive LoS that you can abuse/not abuse at your own perogative.

You have a ton of areas that are ridiculously defensible.  If you're asking for Mhaldor levels of Raid-Proofing, you're going to be sad to know that basically every single other city is unable to gain that, where 50%+ of their city is Indoors. (Good chunk of it behind doors! Thankfully, doors are less stupid now and most phased/af/mistral/bw people can just bypass them.

I'd really, really, suggest you look into anger management, or like... taking a break, instead of venting your anger out at some problem that exists for every city bar Mhaldor.

Hell, it's city entrance is a massive Los that you guys routinely abuse to yeet people into guards. Constantly. Yes, it used to be a full line E, then N for massive LoS into city.. But that got made massively in favour of the defender there, rather than the raider.

Targossas' defendable really should be a e ne exit, with that bend making it so LoS can't go out, or in, that easily.

Achilles

What, I'm not even angry (you are one to talk @Adrik about rage) just facepalming that this was a conscience decision that was considerably worse in 2013 based on the skills at the time (class change wasnt a thing in 2013 so serpent poor Good was always on defense, neither was airlord, the other 2 are factional classes)

The current layout is still crap and could easily take a few pages to go line by line of things that should change.

Akri

No problem, just point out one area you want completely gone and on the last day of war we'll hit it hard and do a special ritual to blow it up entirely, and bam admins can remove it. A memorable end AND you're rid of one eyesore. How's that sound?

Achilles

All of lower Targ save the Harbour

Iaxus

Isn't Targ built on cliffs? We could make this happen.

Rackham

I've literally had the SAME complaint about Ashtan, after you guys constantly raid the shower, or the sorrows (I swear the sorrows were designed specifically to be raided). Distance, guard layout... After hearing it from Targ (who in my opinion has the easiest layout, especially since so many doors can be locked).....

Maybe this -is- just a 'grass is greener' kinda thing. Hmm, guess I'll count my blessings.

Kelvan

It was last night (well, technically this morning), but went on an awesome hunt against the kraken. Just got into seafaring and having tons of fun hunting monsters with Kuriel, Armali, and Caedan, but that kraken fight was easily one of the most fun experiences I've had.

Vinzent

Rackham said:

I've literally had the SAME complaint about Ashtan, after you guys constantly raid the shower, or the sorrows (I swear the sorrows were designed specifically to be raided). Distance, guard layout... After hearing it from Targ (who in my opinion has the easiest layout, especially since so many doors can be locked).....

Maybe this -is- just a 'grass is greener' kinda thing. Hmm, guess I'll count my blessings.

Targossas has more spots like the showers than Ashtan, although I do think Ashtan falls prey to the same issues Targossas' layout has.

Cobault

I think we can come together and agree that both Ashtan and Targossas have really, really shitty City layouts.

Got 1/4 the goddamn City guarded with little patches flecked throughout and the rest is just giant open field of 'NO ONE EVEN FUCKING COMES HERE'

I don't even wanna get started on the rant about the goddamn patchwork quilt that is Ashtan's subdivision.

Sothantos

Ashtan, Hashan, and Targossas are about the same in terms of raidability imo.

Mhaldor is the outlier with its overlapping rooms that are almost all indoors.

Not sure about Cyrene and Eleusis as I've never really raided them.

Minifie

If we rebalance city layouts for raiding, can single divine cities also get 2x shrine capacity and 50% essence cost reduction too please? 

Reyson

Cyrene is pretty awful. Eleusis is negotiable because it's small, but there are always some areas that are easy to hit. 

Adrik

Sothantos said:

Ashtan, Hashan, and Targossas are about the same in terms of raidability imo.

Mhaldor is the outlier with its overlapping rooms that are almost all indoors.

Not sure about Cyrene and Eleusis as I've never really raided them.

Cyrene is laid out in such a way that it never really overlaps. The singular city I can think of that has this issue is Mhaldor. Cyrene also (sort of) got a map redesign, which helped it's problems a little bit.

Hashan has a like 10 room LoS all-outdoors area that gets raided constantly despite being indoors and having a ceiling above it for all the way up but the top.  It's weird.

Every city has it's weird places that are super easy to raid behind locked doors / special exits. Though, from what I hear from Eleusis, the hip cool thing is to whine to admins to get a garden gate removed. Hashan still has it's tavern basement.

Torrent

Eleusis is raidable only because there is a lot of twists and turns. The main area is harder but the outliers such as the different levels make it much easier. Its always the same spots in Eleusis that get raided. The problem with Eleusis is that its easy to turtle there are usually one way to get there.

The garden gate was the equivalent of an arte tent. So it had to go. If there is something you don't like about your city Patron request to remove it or change it. Many cities have done it over the years. Hashan had the gatehouse constructed.

Vhaynna

Torrent said:

Eleusis is raidable only because there is a lot of twists and turns. The main area is harder but the outliers such as the different levels make it much easier. Its always the same spots in Eleusis that get raided. The problem with Eleusis is that its easy to turtle there are usually one way to get there.

The garden gate was the equivalent of an arte tent. So it had to go. If there is something you don't like about your city Patron request to remove it or change it. Many cities have done it over the years. Hashan had the gatehouse constructed.

Sadly, this doesn't work with people

Achilles

Ashtan, Cyrene and Hashan have sewers, that is a big deal as it allows non-artied people dozens of options to avoid a radiance/defendable/clouds/gare gank.  There is a difference pre-sanction and sanction for off hour raiding.  

Look, if you have enough people to station and block off all these area borders, then you obviously are raiding with overwhelming odds.

Here's the time stamps of the last 15 raids (in CST).  You can see there's a very specific 2-3 hour window where ~75% of the tanks are being blown up.  

8:17AM - The forces of Mhaldor have destroyed Garden retreat
8:17AM - The forces of Mhaldor have destroyed Verdant antechamber
3:04AM - The forces of Mhaldor have destroyed A humble abode
8:22AM - The forces of Mhaldor have destroyed Office of the city architect
8:12AM - The forces of Mhaldor have destroyed A simple stone bridge
7:19AM - The forces of Mhaldor have destroyed The harbour of Targossas
7:46AM - The forces of Mhaldor have destroyed The Sundown jetty
1:18AM - The forces of Mhaldor have destroyed Beneath a monolithic waterfall
1:40AM - The forces of Mhaldor have destroyed Righteous Amenities
9:20AM - The forces of Mhaldor have destroyed Down Under
8:05AM - The forces of Mhaldor have destroyed Avenue of the Angels before the Isle of Ram
5:43AM - The forces of Mhaldor have destroyed A corner alcove
7:04AM - The forces of Mhaldor have destroyed Anost
6:06AM - The forces of Mhaldor have destroyed Beggar Tuck's Dry Goods
3:43PM - The forces of Mhaldor have destroyed Warehouses along Harbour Way

So it doesn't really feel like you're losing if you aren't even around for these detonations.  We haven't gone no-life Achaea yet and can continue this indefinitely.

Big Papa Jomi

How is it no life achaea when that's their timezone? Akri, Crixos, Entaro, Rakdos, Reyson, etc etc are all EU/Aussie/etc. 

Archaeon

australia isn't real it's a conspiracy made up by round earthers 

Reyson

I'll tell the next teams to play the Super Bowl that it they only lose if they -feel- beaten, then.

You've tried your best to even the score, and you haven't been able to. Played it the same way we hace. And now, you have seven days to swing it and win it, with Eleusian tanks, so why you're sitting here wanting an extension instead of trying to win the war we're in right now is utterly bizarre to me.

Atalkez

I also don't see the issue there either. Raiding isn't limited to +1/-2 Serenade, and not everyone plays that timezone. Last night was a good example, you engaged with a small force to bait me to engaging (which I did, without guards!), as soon as you got sanction boom ya'll doubled in numbers. Should you not have pushed your advantage? Of course you should have, as should players that see one during their playtime. 

Sothantos

Unrelated to anything, I don't think we actually doubled after the sanction last night. I think that force was around the same size the whole time. Wasn't an ideal time for us.

Saonji

Achilles said:

9:20AM - The forces of Mhaldor have destroyed Down Under

Big Papa Jomi said:

How is it no life achaea when that's their timezone? Akri, Crixos, Entaro, Rakdos, Reyson, etc etc are all EU/Aussie/etc. 

Why are they tanking themselves?

Is this one of those, "You can't kill us! Only we can kill us!" type things?

Big Papa Jomi

Sothantos said:

Unrelated to anything, I don't think we actually doubled after the sanction last night. I think that force was around the same size the whole time. Wasn't an ideal time for us.

lol