What Happened To You Today?

Numira

I somehow managed to get FOUR kills last night. Which is freakin insane, since i’m usually feeling pretty proud of myself when I even get one. It was a pretty awesome way to wrap up my birthday. 

Zackery

Congrats @Darrod ! Wish I could have been there. I'm stoked to see what's next for you.

Sophi

Numira said:

I somehow managed to get FOUR kills last night. Which is freakin insane, since i’m usually feeling pretty proud of myself when I even get one. It was a pretty awesome way to wrap up my birthday. 

You being around when something is happening is an accomplishment in itself

Morthif

Farrah said:

Asmodron said:

Minifie said:

I'm still not seeing your point, domination should have the same basis of sublimation: Either let Ashtan have it too, or lose Domination. If my argument somehow makes sense to not sever domination, then it should work for sublimation as well. If you want sublimation, ally/join with hashan, if you want Domination, ally/join with Ashtan. Same with nature, evil and good, either join and put effort into the faction, or don't reap the single class skill rewards available to them.

You claimed the idea of severing someone to sublimation was completely removing their investment costs as well as crippling them. I told you specifically how it is not doing so. I further went to clarify to you how sublimation is NOT like past faction based skills with their far too damaging sever mechanic to a player's class.

I have no issue with the 'idea' to remove domination, but what does the player get in return? Currently, nothing, and thus your statement of ruining a player's investment and experience comes into play.

Let's take a look at each faction based skill and its sources:

- Necromancy: Based on an art from the Inferno plane that was taught to mortals by a demon at Sartan's command. Necromancy essence is fueled through Sartan to Necromancers to manipulate life around them. It thus makes sense that those seen as enemies to His cause are severed.

- Devotion: A skill based on devotion to the Light and all that is Good, gained through prayer and acts of righteousness. It is linked to the Bloodsworn and, to a degree, the angel plane. Those seen as 'not devote' are, logically, severed.

- Forestals: While not technically controlled by a faction, there is a conflict between Forestals vs Alchemist, which in itself is a representation of Natural vs Science. It is more of an ideological conflict. Cities naturally sway more towards science and innovation over living 'in commune with nature', and thus the limitation exists.

- Sublimation: A skill derived from the Wellspring below Hashan and unlocked through the techniques of the Tsol'teth. Alchemists can now tap into its energies for a far more esoteric field of study into probability, potentiality and even manipulation. The Wellspring itself is guarded by Hashan and during its unlocking was directly linked to them. It is a tool in their control.

As you see, the idea of the severing or 'block' has a logical basis to it.

Now consider Domination. It is a skill based on making pacts with the entities of the Chaos Plane. It is a trade of karma for the purpose of minions that they couldnt really care much about.

Dont get me wrong, in the lore, the Chaos Lords have shifted their once lax stances of recent time with the ascension of Glaaki. They turned their eyes to Sapience and want to gain control. The basis of the idea of a sever exists...but also why would they care about the conflict of mortals and thus deny themselves from trades of karma by refusing purchases? From a mechanically point of view, what of those players that have been playing occultists for so long?

Honestly, the Chaos Court controls domination and is aligned with Ashtan, just as Sartan controls necromancy and is aligned with Mhaldor, and the Bloodsworn control devotion and are aligned with Targossas. I don't see why the Chaos Court couldn't delegate someone to handle who can pact similar to how Sartan and the Bloodsworn do. There's not really much difference in that regard.

The IC reason afaik has generally just been that Chaos is different and can spread whether the Occultist wants it to or not so it's beneficial to have others out there practicing the arts.

In the past, I thought complaints by some Ashtani were pretty silly because only Hashan and Ashtan used Occultist anyway and Hashan didn't have an independent factional so who cares? But now from a purely mechanical perspective it does seem unfair that Hashan gets its own that it can completely block Ashtan from while also getting to use Ashtan's.

It always sucks to make changes that take away player investment but they could theoretically give full lesson refunds to just affected players.

No one WANTS to cost another player money (except maybe @Hirst) but the threat does need to be there. Conversing with the Chaos Court is always frustrating if you ever get a response to begin with. @Sobriquet used occultist against a Vastar crusade and since Vastar is firmly on team Chaos these days we thought we'd enemy him and impose a crazy fine knowing he's the squeakiest of wheels and most likely to help us get some RP going to solve the matter. I don't know how much @Klendathu tried to initiate something but nothing ever came of anything. 

On the other hand I don't think Ashtan as a city is in a place to have a player run office to cut of Domination. City needs to catch up to the other factions on RP stuff. I'm working on the Vanguard but patron requests when you don't have a patron take ages. Can't get a patron until the house shows improvements from the lazy bums we have been since founding but trying to build the house identity around stuff that needs approval first. Need a patron to help me get a patron :P /rant

P.S. @Sobriquet you haven't asked about your fine in a long time. Perhaps you should if you care.

Kuririn

Well, more early early this morning, but managed to dispatch Ryzan!  I feel good.

Morthif

Morthif said:

Farrah said:

Asmodron said:

Minifie said:

I'm still not seeing your point, domination should have the same basis of sublimation: Either let Ashtan have it too, or lose Domination. If my argument somehow makes sense to not sever domination, then it should work for sublimation as well. If you want sublimation, ally/join with hashan, if you want Domination, ally/join with Ashtan. Same with nature, evil and good, either join and put effort into the faction, or don't reap the single class skill rewards available to them.

You claimed the idea of severing someone to sublimation was completely removing their investment costs as well as crippling them. I told you specifically how it is not doing so. I further went to clarify to you how sublimation is NOT like past faction based skills with their far too damaging sever mechanic to a player's class.

I have no issue with the 'idea' to remove domination, but what does the player get in return? Currently, nothing, and thus your statement of ruining a player's investment and experience comes into play.

Let's take a look at each faction based skill and its sources:

- Necromancy: Based on an art from the Inferno plane that was taught to mortals by a demon at Sartan's command. Necromancy essence is fueled through Sartan to Necromancers to manipulate life around them. It thus makes sense that those seen as enemies to His cause are severed.

- Devotion: A skill based on devotion to the Light and all that is Good, gained through prayer and acts of righteousness. It is linked to the Bloodsworn and, to a degree, the angel plane. Those seen as 'not devote' are, logically, severed.

- Forestals: While not technically controlled by a faction, there is a conflict between Forestals vs Alchemist, which in itself is a representation of Natural vs Science. It is more of an ideological conflict. Cities naturally sway more towards science and innovation over living 'in commune with nature', and thus the limitation exists.

- Sublimation: A skill derived from the Wellspring below Hashan and unlocked through the techniques of the Tsol'teth. Alchemists can now tap into its energies for a far more esoteric field of study into probability, potentiality and even manipulation. The Wellspring itself is guarded by Hashan and during its unlocking was directly linked to them. It is a tool in their control.

As you see, the idea of the severing or 'block' has a logical basis to it.

Now consider Domination. It is a skill based on making pacts with the entities of the Chaos Plane. It is a trade of karma for the purpose of minions that they couldnt really care much about.

Dont get me wrong, in the lore, the Chaos Lords have shifted their once lax stances of recent time with the ascension of Glaaki. They turned their eyes to Sapience and want to gain control. The basis of the idea of a sever exists...but also why would they care about the conflict of mortals and thus deny themselves from trades of karma by refusing purchases? From a mechanically point of view, what of those players that have been playing occultists for so long?

Honestly, the Chaos Court controls domination and is aligned with Ashtan, just as Sartan controls necromancy and is aligned with Mhaldor, and the Bloodsworn control devotion and are aligned with Targossas. I don't see why the Chaos Court couldn't delegate someone to handle who can pact similar to how Sartan and the Bloodsworn do. There's not really much difference in that regard.

The IC reason afaik has generally just been that Chaos is different and can spread whether the Occultist wants it to or not so it's beneficial to have others out there practicing the arts.

In the past, I thought complaints by some Ashtani were pretty silly because only Hashan and Ashtan used Occultist anyway and Hashan didn't have an independent factional so who cares? But now from a purely mechanical perspective it does seem unfair that Hashan gets its own that it can completely block Ashtan from while also getting to use Ashtan's.

It always sucks to make changes that take away player investment but they could theoretically give full lesson refunds to just affected players.

No one WANTS to cost another player money (except maybe @Hirst) but the threat does need to be there. Conversing with the Chaos Court is always frustrating if you ever get a response to begin with. @Sobriquet used occultist against a Vastar crusade and since Vastar is firmly on team Chaos these days we thought we'd enemy him and impose a crazy fine knowing he's the squeakiest of wheels and most likely to help us get some RP going to solve the matter. I don't know how much @Klendathu tried to initiate something but nothing ever came of anything. 

On the other hand I don't think Ashtan as a city is in a place to have a player run office to cut of Domination. City needs to catch up to the other factions on RP stuff. I'm working on the Vanguard but patron requests when you don't have a patron take ages. Can't get a patron until the house shows improvements from the lazy bums we have been since founding but trying to build the house identity around stuff that needs approval first. Need a patron to help me get a patron :P /rant

P.S. @Sobriquet you haven't asked about your fine in a long time. Perhaps you should if you care.

Sorry, can't seem to open my mouth lately without a word vomit rant about patron requests lately. The poor guy on the bike path this morning was so confused!

Proficy

So, I didnt read all these posts about excomms and factions restricting classes for whatever reason....

Jus wanted to throw it out there that I had been an alchemist for well over 2 centuries now, never really playing in it... but one forever... and when the new sublimation came out, literally 10-15 minutes later hashan took it from me.

So, if anyone from that city has been or is crying about it... tough tits..

Sobriquet

Klenathu never spoke to me about the fine and enemy status, he had extreme slopes for shoulders and told me to speak to other people, other people which blatantly ignored my tells (For a variety of reasons, I appreciate).

There is no clear delineation on what constitutes abuse of Domination when it comes to player viewpoint. Astarod's recent log notes are inaccurate (Not sure whether to thank the person who showed me, or be annoyed, but still) as there was no "Direct Assault" as I saw it, but this is the beauty of a Multiplayer game, people view things differently. The problem arises when that viewpoint can cost someone $100+

@Morthif Why would I ask about a fine when I have no IC reason to lose my enemy status to Ashtan? The only incentive I had would be to join the City, which isn't there as things stand. If I lose access to Domination and the only way to have access to that is to join up, that's a 1400cr fine. It's cheaper and quicker to change class. You might think it's making a statement and is a starting point for negotiations, but it's simply SO high, that there isn't really any point. 

Sobriquet

Proficy said:

So, I didnt read all these posts about excomms and factions restricting classes for whatever reason....

Jus wanted to throw it out there that I had been an alchemist for well over 2 centuries now, never really playing in it... but one forever... and when the new sublimation came out, literally 10-15 minutes later hashan took it from me.

So, if anyone from that city has been or is crying about it... tough tits..

Alchemists of Sapience have diverged into two distinct paths. The traditional

alchemical practice of Formulation and the field of Sublimation. You may select

your field once every 24 hours to swap between the two.

 

** ADMINISTRATIVE NOTE: Sublimation is controlled by the City of Hashan. If you

are an enemy, might be an enemy, or have hostile intent against this

organisation we strongly advise against selecting this as your field. They can

and will remove your ability to functionally utilise this skill.

 
You don't lose the class though, you simply switch to use Formulation and have a 100% functioning class to use. To compare that to losing Domination, Devotion or Necromancy is just.. daft. 

Jovolo

I do agree that losing sublimation is not at all comparable to Devotion/Necromancy/Domination, that's a false equivalency I'm not sure why people are making. 

The administrative note specifically mentioning that if you are an enemy of Hashan, they have every right to remove your access to the skill. That's why you have Formulation available. 

[Deleted User]

Jovolo's right.

The former are factional skills that can be removed if you choose to act against the ideology that the skill is linked to. The latter is a factional skill that can be removed for whatever reason Hashan chooses to concoct, enemy or otherwise.

AtLeAsT yOu HaVe FoRmUlAtIoN tHoUgH.

Calira

Pyori said:

AtLeAsT yOu HaVe FoRmUlAtIoN tHoUgH.

Childish retorts aside, this is a big deal. If excommed Paladins or Necros got a 100-lesson transition to Runewarden then I imagine people would be way less salty about it. The comparison between losing Domination and Sublimation is valid from a factional fairness perspective, but when it comes to the damage done to the individual it isn't even close.

Lenn

Add a version of occultist that acts despite the chaos lords' collective wills, which can be swapped between via 100 lessons or an artefact.

Then the Overseer could bestow the Archons with the responsibility of directing the use of their resources by the inhabitants of Prime, which would make sense anyway since I presume that's sort of their role already.

Astarod

Calira said:

Pyori said:

AtLeAsT yOu HaVe FoRmUlAtIoN tHoUgH.

Childish retorts aside, this is a big deal. If excommed Paladins or Necros got a 100-lesson transition to Runewarden then I imagine people would be way less salty about it. The comparison between losing Domination and Sublimation is valid from a factional fairness perspective, but when it comes to the damage done to the individual it isn't even close.

If you decide to burn $100 dollars for your own amusement, or to see if your currency is flameproof, then that's on you. If I throw money to become a priest, having acted against the interests of Targ, I fully expect to be excommed. Do you not? 

Lenn

Except all the people who threw money into priest before they changed what good meant a couple dozen times.

Calira

Astarod said:

If you decide to burn $100 dollars for your own amusement, or to see if your currency is flameproof, then that's on you. If I throw money to become a priest, having acted against the interests of Targ, I fully expect to be excommed. Do you not? 

Of course. I play a non-Ashtani Occultist and I have no qualms about the rules as they're set up. I voluntarily take it a step further and do not use the class against Ashtan even on defence. I wouldn't even object if the Chaos Court made another proclamation tightening up the rules, discouraging any shrine or world event opposition to Ashtan using Domination. What I -would- object to is Ashtan suddenly gaining free reign to take away Domination from anyone at any time for any reason, like Mhaldor can with Necromancy. People buy into Infernal knowing the risks. It's not the same for people who buy into Occultist knowing the current risks, only to get kneecapped by a total overhaul of the system.

[Deleted User]

This isn't 2003. People don't get excommunicated/anathema just for existing. Unless your manner of existing consists of trying to act against the faction your skill is aligned to. Rogue priests don't get excomm'd* for nothing, Rogue necromancers can prove themselves worthy of holding the class and get to keep it without joining Mhaldor. What will get you excomm'd*/anathema is trying to remain Ashtani/Hashani as either of those things (yes Ashtani can get priest from Certimene, despite it being outlawed by Ashtan law).

Literally nobody would put Hirst in control of who gets cut off, so really your argument is just 1 great big pessimistic 'what if' scenario that wouldn't actually happen.

Lenn said:

Except all the people who threw money into priest before they changed what good meant a couple dozen times.

Excomm rules haven't changed in the entire time I've played. It's literally "don't interact with 'Good'/Targossas enemies, and don't act against us". Which is what it's always been, except when Rho (I think) was Archprelate. Only people I recall getting it after Targossas were the select few Cyrene people who refused to give it up/join Targossas, which falls under the same ruling as my first comment. Possibly an oathbreaker or two who refused to give it up, as well.

* - When a Deacon is active.

Cooper

Pylori is very wrong about the excom rules never changing. They have changed extremely significantly. 

[Deleted User]

I said in the time I've played. I didn't say they've never changed. What I described is what they've been for at least a decade (slightly less, since I've not been back exactly a decade just yet).

You don't get excommunicated unless you act against Targossas/Good (and Shallam back then). Being a rogue does not constitute acting against them, cavorting with enemies however, does. Prior to Cyrene's renouncing, all rogues/cyrenians had to be in that stupid clan though, ditto for that shared clan when Shallam was a thing (could have been the same one, I don't even remember its name). Don't think there's any requirements like that anymore (not that it matters with a retired, non-replaced Deacon).

You don't get anathemised just for being a rogue necromancer. From my conversations with Ysela/Harmonia, you do have to prove yourself useful to Evil/Mhaldor, though. Which you might as well just join at that point.

Naturally there's been Deacons / Ecclesiarch's that tried to enforce their own rules, but those have been the base rules the whole time I've played.

btw my name doesn't have an L in it. It's only 5 letters, really not that hard to remember.

Vhaith

Pyori said:

I said in the time I've played. I didn't say they've never changed. What I described is what they've been for at least a decade (slightly less, since I've not been back exactly a decade just yet).

You don't get excommunicated unless you act against Targossas/Good (and Shallam back then). Being a rogue does not constitute acting against them, cavorting with enemies however, does. Prior to Cyrene's renouncing, all rogues/cyrenians had to be in that stupid clan though, ditto for that shared clan when Shallam was a thing (could have been the same one, I don't even remember its name). Don't think there's any requirements like that anymore (not that it matters with a retired, non-replaced Deacon).

You don't get anathemised just for being a rogue necromancer. From my conversations with Ysela/Harmonia, you do have to prove yourself useful to Evil/Mhaldor, though. Which you might as well just join at that point.

Naturally there's been Deacons / Ecclesiarch's that tried to enforce their own rules, but those have been the base rules the whole time I've played.

btw my name doesn't have an L in it. It's only 5 letters, really not that hard to remember.

Just start calling him Clooper.

Cooper

Pyori's second post is also wrong. He's obviously claimed to have started playing much longer than 10 years ago.

Excom rules have changed during the time you've played. 

Sorry for the l, my phone must have thrown it in there for some reason.

[Deleted User]

Cooper said:

Pyori's second post is also wrong. He's obviously claimed to have started playing much longer than 10 years ago.

Excom rules have changed during the time you've played. 

Sorry for the l, my phone must have thrown it in there for some reason.

Again, "the time I've played" is the keywords. I don't consider the nearly 8 year gap in playing that I took, to be "during the time I've played". Considering I barely played a month before said gap, since I took up WoW instead when it came out. So nah, what I've said has been right. Thanks, though.

Asmodron

Xallax

I wouldn't consider this debate to be "what happened today"....

Cooper

Pyori said:

Cooper said:

Pyori's second post is also wrong. He's obviously claimed to have started playing much longer than 10 years ago.

Excom rules have changed during the time you've played. 

Sorry for the l, my phone must have thrown it in there for some reason.

Again, "the time I've played" is the keywords. I don't consider the nearly 8 year gap in playing that I took, to be "during the time I've played". Considering I barely played a month before said gap, since I took up WoW instead when it came out. So nah, what I've said has been right. Thanks, though.

What gets you excommed has also changed in the last 10 years, so your base argument is wrong too.

Minifie

Sublimation, though, shows how much better it is to link a factional skill to a class anyone can grab, allowing to swap between (perhaps instead of 100 lessons 150k gold, can swap once every OOC day). Runewardens can swap to devo/necro in factional cities, magi and sylvan. Apostate, priest, druid/sentinel (though no alchemist so still equals out to one I guess), occultist all remain stand alone classes. Not perfect, but it does at least give factional classes that share some skill overlap to not be double classes to relearn 1-2 skills that your character already knows (why do I need to pay 5k lessons to learn weaponmastery and chivalry? I already have them trained, my character knows them both, has a trained falcon. . . This really is a weird thing to me).

Torinn

Wholly agree that would be the best.  It'd be great from a roleplay perspective too since ultimately they are very close in skillsets

Asmodron

Runewarden, Infernal and Paladin should definitely be united into a single Knight class where the individual can select the focus of their third skill.

Priest and Apostate is a bit more tricky, however they are based on the idea of a 'priesthood' and share a similar concept. Not sure how that one could work though.

Morthif

Asmodron said:

Runewarden, Infernal and Paladin should definitely be united into a single Knight class where the individual can select the focus of their third skill.

Priest and Apostate is a bit more tricky, however they are based on the idea of a 'priesthood' and share a similar concept. Not sure how that one could work though.

Separate Sentinel from Nature and leave Eleusis with Sylvan and druid.

Make Knight class with Runewarden as default or even better a more generic skillset. Make Infernal and Paladin options like Shikudo monk model (requires you to learn the extra skillset)

Add a Darkness and Chaos skillset like Devotion/Necromancy.

Make Priest, Occultist, and Apostate just hard locked to their factions with same or stricter limitations on them now.

This gives every faction 2 classes and allows for more faction control over faction stuff with less risk involved to get cut off 

Sophi

Morthif said:

Separate Sentinel from Nature and leave Eleusis with Sylvan and druid.