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  • PyoriPyori Member Posts: 2,124 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Asmodron said:
    nor Babel had control over karma or occultists or even domination
    There is a version of 'excom' for Occultists, and it's Babel who has control over it. Think only two or three people have managed to 'earn' it. Iirc it completely cuts off your ability to access the Chaos Plane, and thus obtain pacts.

  • CaliraCalira Member, Secret Squirrel Posts: 582 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    edited September 2019
    Archaeon said:
    Chaos entities can refuse to treat with someone, why can't this be extended to occultists who fight against Ashtan?
    This is exactly how it already works. Dameron made a public post (19885) describing the Chaos Court's opinion on rogue Occultists. Ashtan has an excommunication mechanic that strips Domination from any Occultist who breaks that in-game decree.
    Asmodron
  • TaryiusTaryius Member, Secret Squirrel Posts: 818 @ - Epic Achaean
    edited September 2019
    Calira said:
    Archaeon said:
    Chaos entities can refuse to treat with someone, why can't this be extended to occultists who fight against Ashtan?
    This is exactly how it already works. Dameron made a public post (19885) describing the Chaos Court's opinion on rogue Occultists. Ashtan has an excommunication mechanic that strips Domination from any Occultist who breaks that in-game decree.
    The problem is that this power is not in player hands, so relies on an active divine to excomm personally, not just to assign a deacon/eclair etc. This requires that every infraction be brought to said divine in an IC fashion and that they then take the time to personally review and excomm the accused. With how busy Divine players can be it really doesn't make any sense to not put the already exisiting mechanic and power onto a selected person like every other faction.
  • CaliraCalira Member, Secret Squirrel Posts: 582 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Taryius said:
    The problem is that this power is not in player hands, so relies on an active divine to excomm personally, not just to assign a deacon/eclair etc. This requires that every infraction be brought to said divine in an IC fashion and that they then take the time to personally review and excomm the accused. With how busy Divine players can be it really doesn't make any sense to not put the already exisiting mechanic and power onto a selected person like every other faction.
    I could be mistaken, but I understood from a pretty reliable source that the power was in mortal hands, but required a compelling reason to be given. As far as I know, there aren't currently any Occultists who raid Ashtan and go unpunished. The only problem, as I see it, is that many Ashtani feel that Dameron's decree was too lenient.
  • AustereAustere TennesseeMember Posts: 2,346 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Calira said:
    Taryius said:
    The problem is that this power is not in player hands, so relies on an active divine to excomm personally, not just to assign a deacon/eclair etc. This requires that every infraction be brought to said divine in an IC fashion and that they then take the time to personally review and excomm the accused. With how busy Divine players can be it really doesn't make any sense to not put the already exisiting mechanic and power onto a selected person like every other faction.
    I could be mistaken, but I understood from a pretty reliable source that the power was in mortal hands, but required a compelling reason to be given. As far as I know, there aren't currently any Occultists who raid Ashtan and go unpunished. The only problem, as I see it, is that many Ashtani feel that Dameron's decree was too lenient.
    The power isn't in the players hands directly. We have to submit a request to the court which is then reviewed.  The only reason this is accepted is if the person has actively raided Ashtan as an occultist.  All other factions are supposed to restrict to the same reason, with the exception of mhaldor and targossas, both of which get to call fowl on shrine conflict as well. 

    The only problem Ashtan has is the perceived unfairness of other factions ability to restrict for reasons outside of these situations. 
    CaliraShirszaeTruax
  • MinifieMinifie Member Posts: 3,115 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Afaik it’s meant to be that devo/necro are tied directly to bsworn/sartan, while sublimation and domination were tied to wellspring and Chaos Court, so required actual attacks on the city, but I was mistake on the Sublimation thing so guess that changes or severing domination should be more doable.
  • RoagnakRoagnak Member Posts: 2
    The fierce crew aboard a red-sailed Kashari raider pause briefly from manning the weapons to draw bows and nock arrows, sending a volley of deadly projectiles to rain down on you and the crew.
    Your shield completely absorbs the damage.
    Shield Seared a red-sailed Kashari raider.
    You have slain a red-sailed Kashari raider.
    My echoes say I killed it with my shield glyph...
  • WaayenWaayen Member Posts: 15
    edited September 2019
    Ugh, he really did killed it. Zombie ships anyone?

    You begin the painstaking process of aiming a ballista at the corpse of a red-sailed Kashari raider.

    I've given too much to the hate, delved its depths, and rested my head upon its fluffy bosom.

  • VinzentVinzent Member Posts: 307 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    You rip into an eight-legged aspis with your massive, deadly claws.
    You have scored a CRUSHING CRITICAL hit!
    You have slain an eight-legged aspis, retrieving the corpse.
    Your soul cries out in ecstasy as it reaches new heights of power. You have advanced to level 108.
    You have reached the illustrious level of 4th Stratum of Puissance.
    You feel a surge of energy course through your body as a sycophantic shoulder cape feeds upon the lifeforce of your fallen foe.
    11442:98% e 8426:99% T 46/98  -
    KriexMroxylIohanna
  • MorthifMorthif Member Posts: 1,730 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Sobriquet said:
    Jovolo said:
    Sobriquet said:
    Astarod said:
    Sobriquet said:
    You have recovered equilibrium.
    You reach out and clench a fist before Astarod, who screams and doubles over in agony as his skin
    suddenly bubbles with gangrenous growths.
    5847h, 6971m, 27080e, 30485w cxkdb[swsk]-41.1- 23:28:04.403 [  ](-72m, 1.0%) 
    Your body is wracked with pain by the dissonant vibrations.
    5640h, 6971m, 27080e, 30485w cxkdb[swsk]-41.1- 23:28:04.731 [  ](-207h, 3.5%) 
    One of your tentacles lashes out at Astarod, wrapping around his body and holding him firm.
    5640h, 6971m, 27080e, 30503w cxkdb[swsk]-41.1- 23:28:04.903 [  ]
    You may command another entity to do your bidding. (3.203s)
    You command your hound to rend the flesh of Astarod.
    You have slain @Astarod

    Kill number 900. 
     

     Sigh. I guess you can blatantly post logs of occultism against Ashtani and nothing'll happen. 

    I personally thinl the whole factionalism in Hashan but not cutting them off from Occultism is kinda asinine but...


    Congrats anyways dude! Just lmk when you are at 999 and I'll duel you for 1000! It's really cool to see people hit benchmarks like that. Don't take my mini-rant above directed at you, either. Glad to see you around lately. 

    This was at a shrine around NoNT, so not sure what that has to do with anything. Also, ask anyone in Hashan my stance on actually raiding the city itself. Also. 20m gold fine :p

    900 isn't as much as some but I was pleased to get there. 
    Nah Sob, you should definitely be penalised in-game for posting a combat log to the forums. 

    ??
    Wouldn't be the first time it has happened to me. 
    This is part of the problem. I get complaints that @Sobriquet was border raiding Ashtan as an occultist and he claims he was no closer then NoNT. I don't want let misinformation cost someone their class skills. 

    But I also heard a lot of reports from people that an alchemist who was enemied to Hashan lost sublimation access on day 1. I don't know how true or not this is but seems a bit unfair to hold Domination access to a higher standard. 
  • PyoriPyori Member Posts: 2,124 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Morthif said:
    But I also heard a lot of reports from people that an alchemist who was enemied to Hashan lost sublimation access on day 1. I don't know how true or not this is but seems a bit unfair to hold Domination access to a higher standard. 
    It is true.

    Terek
  • SobriquetSobriquet Member Posts: 2,597 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    For the record. I make it very plain and clear on ART and PT I will not be raiding Ashtan itself in Occie. I thankfully have other class options If I'm stuck on cool down, but it's an RP stipulation im keen to stick to. 
    image
  • AsmodronAsmodron Member Posts: 3,114 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited September 2019
    Minifie said:
    Afaik it’s meant to be that devo/necro are tied directly to bsworn/sartan, while sublimation and domination were tied to wellspring and Chaos Court, so required actual attacks on the city, but I was mistake on the Sublimation thing so guess that changes or severing domination should be more doable.

    Your comparison is incorrect.

    The Wellspring's knowledge was opened by the Tsol'teth to the world and, in doing so, Hashani citizens at the time awake felt (read) as they became intricately linked with it. The Wellspring is directly in control of Hashan. It isnt something they pay homage to or make a pact with, it is a tool in the city's control.

    Domination is in the Chaos Lords' control and they choose who they wish to pact with for juicy karma and who not to. The general idea is that they dont care who takes their entities, as long as it isnt used to directly harm their Seat on Sapience. More pacters means more karma and spreading of more chaos in the main land by more occultists using their entities.

    Attempting to compare domination and sublimation as the same thing that should have the same mechanical attributes is folly.
  • JiraishinJiraishin skulkingMember Posts: 2,202 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    They're both factional skills with the potential to be taken away if used against the faction.
    ________________________
    The soul of Ashmond says, "Always with the sniping."

    (Clan): Ictinus says, "Stop it Jiraishin, you're making me like you."
    Taryius
  • AsmodronAsmodron Member Posts: 3,114 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Jiraishin said:
    They're both factional skills with the potential to be taken away if used against the faction.

    And yet that was not the comparison being made. Factional they may be but their basis is completely different. In fact, one could say domination is not 'factional' to Ashtan, but rather the Chaos Court and Ashtan merely has an alliance with them.

    To say that "Domination should get the same mechanic because it is the same as Sublimation" is in itself incorrect.
  • MinifieMinifie Member Posts: 3,115 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Except you really have to be VERY clear on boundaries with these things. Taking away lessons from someone because of a lack of clarity is not something that really makes players stick around (yes, I've argued before about losing players who don't like IC repercussions to their actions, but if those boundaries are clearly defined, and you lose your investment stepping outside of them, the onus is on you. If I am told, "Leave Mhaldor and your necro skills are severed", I leave mhaldor and kick up a stink about it that just makes me a fool. Hashan should be able to sever those who act outside of a specific set of guidelines using sublimation, but if those guidelines are swapped up/not absolutely strictly adhered to, you risk people being careful getting hit even though they followed what was specified to them. Mechanically speaking, domination and sublimation should work similar, but if defending using sublimation can get you severed, then Ashtan should be able to have domination severed if you defend yourself with Domination. 

    Players and Gods that hold this power are rarely want to just exercise it and blast away people's investment (outside a few notable exceptions), but they need to be crystal clear boundaries, and adhered too. If Ysela excommed an ally who was allowed previously to use necromancy as long as it wasn't used against Mhaldor or Sartan's shrines, I'd be miffed if she did so anyway without those borders being broken. There's always options available, but when it comes to things that people invest real $$$ into it's usually best to err on caution IMO. 
    ZackerySherazadAdrikMroxyl
  • CooperCooper Member Posts: 5,569 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Morthif said:
    But I also heard a lot of reports from people that an alchemist who was enemied to Hashan lost sublimation access on day 1. I don't know how true or not this is but seems a bit unfair to hold Domination access to a higher standard. 
    Proficy lost it day 1 about 10 minutes after they were given the ability to remove access. He wasn't even logged in yet.

    Proficy
  • AsmodronAsmodron Member Posts: 3,114 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited September 2019
    Minifie said:
    Except you really have to be VERY clear on boundaries with these things. Taking away lessons from someone because of a lack of clarity is not something that really makes players stick around (yes, I've argued before about losing players who don't like IC repercussions to their actions, but if those boundaries are clearly defined, and you lose your investment stepping outside of them, the onus is on you. If I am told, "Leave Mhaldor and your necro skills are severed", I leave mhaldor and kick up a stink about it that just makes me a fool. Hashan should be able to sever those who act outside of a specific set of guidelines using sublimation, but if those guidelines are swapped up/not absolutely strictly adhered to, you risk people being careful getting hit even though they followed what was specified to them. Mechanically speaking, domination and sublimation should work similar, but if defending using sublimation can get you severed, then Ashtan should be able to have domination severed if you defend yourself with Domination. 

    Players and Gods that hold this power are rarely want to just exercise it and blast away people's investment (outside a few notable exceptions), but they need to be crystal clear boundaries, and adhered too. If Ysela excommed an ally who was allowed previously to use necromancy as long as it wasn't used against Mhaldor or Sartan's shrines, I'd be miffed if she did so anyway without those borders being broken. There's always options available, but when it comes to things that people invest real $$$ into it's usually best to err on caution IMO. 

    I'm not sure you understand how Sublimation/Formulation works. It isnt an extra lesson investment nor crippling a player's class to remove as the current factional severings work. An ability called Field exists in both skills that allows alchemists to switch between the two. An alchemist does not need to invest further lessons in either, just the once. To switch between the schools is a near negligible amount of lessons.

    Your claims of players: "Taking away lessons from someone because of a lack of clarity" as well as your attempt to insinuate the crippling of a player's access to their class...is in itself misguided and based on misinformation.

    If anything your entire argument further enforces why Domination shouLd NOT be forced into the toxicity of crippling a player's class based on other players' decisions, with no form of compensation. There is no replacement for domination and so as you said, any occultist player not of Ashtan that in any way is seen as an enemy of Ashtan would suddenly find all their investment vanish.

    Sublimation was a breath of fresh air in the rather crippling history of factional classes. It provided an option for players to continue their class. It provided a new skill themed for an org, based on that org's control of the energy source it channels, and put it on a class players were already familiar with. Nothing was taken from players, a new option was simply made available but only to those of this organization. Claiming otherwise is folly.
    Lenn
  • AsmodronAsmodron Member Posts: 3,114 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Cooper said:
    Morthif said:
    But I also heard a lot of reports from people that an alchemist who was enemied to Hashan lost sublimation access on day 1. I don't know how true or not this is but seems a bit unfair to hold Domination access to a higher standard. 
    Proficy lost it day 1 about 10 minutes after they were given the ability to remove access. He wasn't even logged in yet.

    Cant sever someone that isnt logged in fyi
  • MinifieMinifie Member Posts: 3,115 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I'm still not seeing your point, domination should have the same basis of sublimation: Either let Ashtan have it too, or lose Domination. If my argument somehow makes sense to not sever domination, then it should work for sublimation as well. If you want sublimation, ally/join with hashan, if you want Domination, ally/join with Ashtan. Same with nature, evil and good, either join and put effort into the faction, or don't reap the single class skill rewards available to them.
  • ShirszaeShirszae Santo DomingoMember Posts: 3,373 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I think I remember reading/hearing somewhere at some point that the chaos lords don't necessarily dislike Occultists outside of Ashtan so it doesn't make sense for them to take Domination away from them just because they are not Ashtani. Since even occies outside Ashtan further chaos by doing pacts with them and shit. Or at least this is how they see t.

    Hence the requirement that the occie be acting against Ashtan, essentially acting against Chaos by din of acting against something they have a vested interest in.

    Basically, you guys got trolled.

    And you won't understand the cause of your grief...


    ...But you'll always follow the voices beneath.

  • AsmodronAsmodron Member Posts: 3,114 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited September 2019
    Minifie said:
    I'm still not seeing your point, domination should have the same basis of sublimation: Either let Ashtan have it too, or lose Domination. If my argument somehow makes sense to not sever domination, then it should work for sublimation as well. If you want sublimation, ally/join with hashan, if you want Domination, ally/join with Ashtan. Same with nature, evil and good, either join and put effort into the faction, or don't reap the single class skill rewards available to them.

    You claimed the idea of severing someone to sublimation was completely removing their investment costs as well as crippling them. I told you specifically how it is not doing so. I further went to clarify to you how sublimation is NOT like past faction based skills with their far too damaging sever mechanic to a player's class.

    I have no issue with the 'idea' to remove domination, but what does the player get in return? Currently, nothing, and thus your statement of ruining a player's investment and experience comes into play.

    Let's take a look at each faction based skill and its sources:

    - Necromancy: Based on an art from the Inferno plane that was taught to mortals by a demon at Sartan's command. Necromancy essence is fueled through Sartan to Necromancers to manipulate life around them. It thus makes sense that those seen as enemies to His cause are severed.


    - Devotion: A skill based on devotion to the Light and all that is Good, gained through prayer and acts of righteousness. It is linked to the Bloodsworn and, to a degree, the angel plane. Those seen as 'not devote' are, logically, severed.

    - Forestals: While not technically controlled by a faction, there is a conflict between Forestals vs Alchemist, which in itself is a representation of Natural vs Science. It is more of an ideological conflict. Cities naturally sway more towards science and innovation over living 'in commune with nature', and thus the limitation exists.

    - Sublimation: A skill derived from the Wellspring below Hashan and unlocked through the techniques of the Tsol'teth. Alchemists can now tap into its energies for a far more esoteric field of study into probability, potentiality and even manipulation. The Wellspring itself is guarded by Hashan and during its unlocking was directly linked to them. It is a tool in their control.


    As you see, the idea of the severing or 'block' has a logical basis to it.

    Now consider Domination. It is a skill based on making pacts with the entities of the Chaos Plane. It is a trade of karma for the purpose of minions that they couldnt really care much about.

    Dont get me wrong, in the lore, the Chaos Lords have shifted their once lax stances of recent time with the ascension of Glaaki. They turned their eyes to Sapience and want to gain control. The basis of the idea of a sever exists...but also why would they care about the conflict of mortals and thus deny themselves from trades of karma by refusing purchases? From a mechanically point of view, what of those players that have been playing occultists for so long?
  • AstarodAstarod Member Posts: 824 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    edited September 2019
    Cooper said:
    Morthif said:
    But I also heard a lot of reports from people that an alchemist who was enemied to Hashan lost sublimation access on day 1. I don't know how true or not this is but seems a bit unfair to hold Domination access to a higher standard. 
    Proficy lost it day 1 about 10 minutes after they were given the ability to remove access. He wasn't even logged in yet.

     @Pyori lost hers for defending Ashtan. I think? Maybe it was Hashani defendable, but it was most certainly a defense. Much less of an aggressive action than Sobriquet was taking, that's for sure. 

    Asmodron said:

    I have no issue with the 'idea' to remove domination, but what does the player get in return? Currently, nothing, and thus your statement of ruining a player's investment and experience comes into play.

    The hashani player gets to experience the 'golden rule', which is all we're asking for, really.


    The Divine voice of Twilight echoes in your head, "See that it is. I espy a tithe of potential in your mortal soul, Astarod Blackstone. Let us hope that it flourishes and does not falter as so many do."

    Aegis, God of War says, "You are dismissed from My demense, Astarod. Go forth and fight well. Bleed fiercely, and climb the purpose you have sought to chase for."
  • ZackeryZackery Member, Secret Squirrel Posts: 279 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    edited September 2019
    Possibly unpopular opinion, but RP rationale aside, I think it's ridiculous that another player can force you into paying $130 (or more if it's in a different class slot) to change classes.

    I get the whole caveat emptor, you agreed to the risk by choosing a factional class, etc. thing, but still... that's an incredibly expensive RL consequence for IC events.
    AdrikMroxyl
  • LennLenn Member Posts: 818 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Don't forget artefacts too!
    Zackery
  • TorinnTorinn Member Posts: 1,338 @ - Epic Achaean
    edited September 2019
    I think if you are forced to leave your class that you should be refunded for items and lessons you can no longer use.  Though truthfully for me I'd tough it out as an excomm priest gimped and all.  It'd be a good story.  And really the only arty I have that isn't usable by any other class is lvl 3 mace the rest can be used for something. Not everyone is willing to do that though
    Deucalion says, "Torinn is quite nice."
    ZackeryLenn
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