What Happened To You Today?

Asmodron

As combat with Achaea has evolved, so has the mechanics with it. Combat has become so fast paced that I cant completely fault the players for turning to automation. Do I hate it? Yes, but I also see where they are coming from.

The only solution I can think of is if combat mechanics were simplified considerably. You'd still see automation but it wouldn't be as impactful. Do we want such a drastic change though?

Kiet

Other than shaman/soulpiercer bard there's no classes that are really that hard to keep up with, though. People even automate serpent, which is a class that's really easy to keep up with in that sense.

Reyson

The advent of the curing system made it much easier to play Achaea without having to code anything more than a few keybinds/aliases and a couple highlights, defensively. If anything, jumping into achaean PvP is easier now than it's ever been, and not vice-versa. What Ellodin says is true- stuff that used to be high-end defensive knowledge or a 'trick' is now built into curing, and you don't even have to learn that stuff yourself (probably part of why it's still the same 10-20ish people doing all the teaching around here, after all these years) anymore, since the curing system does it for you. 

I don't really buy the lamentation that combat is too fast to get into. Like any game with a steep learning curve, it's tough, and you will lose a lot, at first. If you stick with it and work on it, you'll get better. Classes like 2h knight, DW, monk, and probably Alchemist will always be solid entry options for people, and that's good. It took me literal years before I was winning duels at least semi-consistently. There's complexity for people who want more of a challenge in more advanced classes, and simplicity for people who just wanna hit things. 

For the record, to keep the definition simple, I would say automation is the point where, if I were to grab your mudlet profile and play with it, I could win just by pressing your attack button, since it doesn't matter who's behind the screen. Like a few of us have said before, that's a terribly depressing thought. And before anyone says this isn't the case at all, I think most of us in the pvp scene for any significant amount of time have seen scripts being passed around, from targeting/sniping scripts early on to full serpent offences being handed out like candy. I do think it's amusing that some people around here pretend they coded all of their stuff, though, when they definitely at least initially borrowed someone else's. Don't be that way. It's fine, we all take shortcuts if we can.

Cooper

Kiet said:

Other than shaman/soulpiercer bard there's no classes that are really that hard to keep up with, though. People even automate serpent, which is a class that's really easy to keep up with in that sense.

Would you mind showing how easy it is to manual classes vs. top tier opponents? You can tell everyone that it isn't hard to manual almost all classes every day, but that doesn't make it true.

Atalkez

I played Serpent manual just fine.

Kiet

Cooper said:

Kiet said:

Other than shaman/soulpiercer bard there's no classes that are really that hard to keep up with, though. People even automate serpent, which is a class that's really easy to keep up with in that sense.

Would you mind showing how easy it is to manual classes vs. top tier opponents? You can tell everyone that it isn't hard to manual almost all classes every day, but that doesn't make it true.

Atalkez, Farrah, Iakimen, Rom have all shown that manualing vs top tier opponents is pretty doable. I'm fairly sure Makarios did too on his player character, lol. I don't 1v1 seriously anymore and I can still manual at a level where I can keep up with the vast majority of the game, so how hard can you seriously claim it to be, even if you ignore the top tier who are doing it? Sure, manually affing at the top tier is difficult, no shit. Being good at any game should be difficult. Learning how to be competent at it, though? Not nearly as impossible as people claim--they just want an excuse to automate. What holds people back is not some mechanical inability to keep up with literally one alias every two seconds (most aff classes), but sheer laziness (me!)/lack of practice/improper mindset.

A lot of people don't even 1v1 very actively, either, and automate their offense for groups, which is ridiculous.

No idea why you're getting snarky, either, lol.

Garner

It varies from person to person. Back in the days before vadi's first system, which I think I picked up around the Vertani invasion, I was hopeless in combat. It was ALL I could do just to keep up curing, nevermind offense. Yet it goes without saying there were a lot of people who were great at it.

These days, I still suck at combat, and no amount of automation is going to make it easier. I barely get by (though this time around I'm going to force myself to get better), and I can tell you right now I need some sort of aff tracker or limb counter to make sense of what my opponent is doing. If I couldn't keep track of my own affs before, I can't keep track of my opponents now.

All this is by way of saying, both the people who say "you can't manual aff classes" and those that are saying "you can manual aff classes" are correct - for themselves. There are differing levels of skill, and a little automation can help even out the playing field for those who are lacking. The skill ceiling is different for each person, so how much automation helps will be different as well.

Now, for ACTUAL stuff that happened to me today, I bought another tradeskill slot and picked up tailoring. Now I can design my own clothes! Fun times.

Cooper

I'm not saying you can't manual, I just find it entertaining that the most vocal "you can manual anything" people can't actually fight at a high level. 

Kiet

Cooper said:

I'm not saying you can't manual, I just find it entertaining that the most vocal "you can manual anything" people can't actually fight at a high level. 

Like... Iakimen and Ellodin earlier on the page, you mean? Both of them are way better than either of us, so your point is kinda silly.

[Deleted User]

Cooper said:

I'm not saying you can't manual, I just find it entertaining that the most vocal "you can manual anything" people can't actually fight at a high level. 

I mean there's plenty on the other side of it as well, who say you can't manual at a high level... And aren't particularly good themselves, to be making such a claim.

Mezghar

Can we take this elsewhere? I actually liked this thread before. To get it back on topic, I got my artie pet today. This is the best purchase I've ever made on any IRE game, I love her beyond belief. Full props to the pets team for making her so fantastic! Mudflower, a well-fed pig Fed to an extravagant degree, this adolescent pig commands a stark weight and size in spite of her apparent adolescence. A layer of coarse hair blankets her plump and pudgy body, flushed a light shade of pink. Deep black eyes regard all and sundry with a half vacant, half curious expression, set into her squashed-looking face above a flattened, albeit robust, snout. Extending from her head, her ears are a brighter shade of pink, flapping vigorously with every shift of her form. Coiled tightly like a pink spring, a short tail protrudes from her ample backside. Four fat limbs barely support her decidedly corpulent frame, extending into cloven hooves where all manner of mud, grass, and dirt linger between the toes as the vestigial ephemera of days spent on some grand adventure.

Kiet

omg the pig is your arty pet? I saw him in another thread and just thought it was some random npc

Mezghar

I always had the piglet minipet following me around, so I wanted my pet to be her as she grows up. Every few game years she'll grow to eventual full maturity.

[Deleted User]

Mezghar said:

I always had the piglet minipet following me around, so I wanted my pet to be her as she grows up. Every few game years she'll grow to eventual full maturity.

If Micaelis doesn't eat her before then.

Ajoc

TELLSOFF and being afk does not equal IGNORE, @Caelan. The message given when attempting to send a TELL denotes which is in effect, provided the intended recipient is around, for future reference.

Asmodron

I mean...if the admin are willing to make a new thread just for automation discussion, with everything copied, it would be much appreciated .

Antidas

Cooper said:

Kiet said:

Other than shaman/soulpiercer bard there's no classes that are really that hard to keep up with, though. People even automate serpent, which is a class that's really easy to keep up with in that sense.

Would you mind showing how easy it is to manual classes vs. top tier opponents? You can tell everyone that it isn't hard to manual almost all classes every day, but that doesn't make it true.

Again, hi. I may not be a best of the best fighter, but I manual vs the top tier just fine with decent results. I lose more often than I win since I'm still squishy and have a terrible defense, but I can periodically beat @Proficy, @Dunn, etc. They beat me more than I beat them, but thats both beside the point, and not due to not using an automated offense. Like I said, my defense game is shit haha.

Caelan

Ajoc said:

TELLSOFF and being afk does not equal IGNORE, @Caelan. The message given when attempting to send a TELL denotes which is in effect, provided the intended recipient is around, for future reference.

You sent a snarky tell and then tellsoff. At least twice. Same thing really.  But this time I got sick of listening to you so I IGNOREd you.  Good God get over it.

Ajoc

Caelan said:

You sent a snarky tell and then tellsoff. At least twice. Same thing really.  But this time I got sick of listening to you so I IGNOREd you.  Good God get over it.

Huh? I'm stating there is a difference between TELLSOFF and IGNORE, because that did not seem to be understood. I don't care what you do.

Edit: I use TELLSOFF on a regular basis when I go afk. You are not special in this regard.

Asmodron

Gosh so not looking forward to another "Caelan's reasoning" rant... It's just tells, who cares.

Asmodron

As for automation and combat, some said combat is easier now than what it was. I find that idea to have far too many facets to it for such a conclusion. Are you comparing when people had access to curing and not? Or are you comparing mechanics?

Curing is definitely easier now. I recall back in the day when you either had Vadi's curing system (or one of the other small ones) or...you couldnt do combat. Giving access to serverside curing  has solved that primary issue.

Curing aside, you now have mechanics. Look at what classes and kill concepts were back in the day to now. What Magi, Druid, Sylvan, Sentinel, Knight and even Shaman once were. It's true that even then, someone could have "coded their own automated scripts", but compared to the scarcity of it back then, to now when almost all use and depend on them, there has been a shift. Combat mechanics evolved to take that into consideration now, which upped the learning curve as well as idea of combat in general.

Klendathu

Ajoc said:

TELLSOFF and being afk does not equal IGNORE, @Caelan. The message given when attempting to send a TELL denotes which is in effect, provided the intended recipient is around, for future reference.

Caelan said:

Ajoc said:

TELLSOFF and being afk does not equal IGNORE, @Caelan. The message given when attempting to send a TELL denotes which is in effect, provided the intended recipient is around, for future reference.

You sent a snarky tell and then tellsoff. At least twice. Same thing really.  But this time I got sick of listening to you so I IGNOREd you.  Good God get over it.

Using forums to circumvent Ignore is a no-no

[Deleted User]

Klendathu said:

Using forums to circumvent Ignore is a no-no

Not exactly.

Involvement of the Forums
--------------------------
It should be noted that the ignore function does not translate to the Achaean Forums. If, however, a person seeks to abuse this then they may potentially face consequences within the game itself.

Not specifically against the rules, but if they ignored you for a reason and you continue spouting on about said reason, then there's gonna be trouble.

Achilles

@Mezghar - reminder we have a luau next week, you have a +1

Kriex

Mezghar said:

Can we take this elsewhere? I actually liked this thread before. To get it back on topic, I got my artie pet today. This is the best purchase I've ever made on any IRE game, I love her beyond belief. Full props to the pets team for making her so fantastic! Mudflower, a well-fed pig Fed to an extravagant degree, this adolescent pig commands a stark weight and size in spite of her apparent adolescence. A layer of coarse hair blankets her plump and pudgy body, flushed a light shade of pink. Deep black eyes regard all and sundry with a half vacant, half curious expression, set into her squashed-looking face above a flattened, albeit robust, snout. Extending from her head, her ears are a brighter shade of pink, flapping vigorously with every shift of her form. Coiled tightly like a pink spring, a short tail protrudes from her ample backside. Four fat limbs barely support her decidedly corpulent frame, extending into cloven hooves where all manner of mud, grass, and dirt linger between the toes as the vestigial ephemera of days spent on some grand adventure.

So no cows or milk. But you managed to get Targossas bacon for the Blood Born. Your sacrifices are much appreciated.  Gonna add bacon into my recipes now. Thanks @Mezghar

Farrah

That bacon is for the Caefir only. Sorry.

Talamond

Still the weirdest looking bat in the lineup.

Caelan

Klendathu said:

Using forums to circumvent Ignore is a no-no

<tellson>, <snarky reply>, <tellsoff>, <go celebrate my 14th birthday>

Honestly I dislike the IGNORE and SNUB function mostly, and that is just a way to do it without officially doing it.  It is semantics.  I gave him the benefit of the doubt before when I had to tell him about 8 times in 10 minutes that I really didn't care about him when he was talking shit to try and bait me into a fight (pretty old tactic). I figured maybe that is his "RP".  Then he TELLSOFF so I can't reply and 2 minutes later does the same thing. But I mentioned how much he doesnt shut up to about 10 other people and the consensus was "yeah that is how he is".  So this time I just hit IGNORE because I really don't need to hear "lol ur a coward aegien" everytime he dies rushing Eleusians with 3:1 odds.  Or even that he will hire on me for traps hitting "illegally", despite him justifying walking into a room where we are raising a shrine and just attacking 'illegally' ten times a day. 

Ajoc

Caelan said:

<tellson>, <snarky reply>, <tellsoff>, <go celebrate my 14th birthday>

If I had actually done this there would be some credence to what you're saying. Unfortunately, that is not the case. The one time I used TELLSOFF in a discussion with you, I went afk and timed out. I returned after approximately twenty minutes, hunted for awhile, then left.

Caelan said:

I gave him the benefit of the doubt before when I had to tell him about 8 times in 10 minutes that I really didn't care about him when he was talking shit to try and bait me into a fight (pretty old tactic). I figured maybe that is his "RP".

Is wanting to PK so horribly wrong that I am not permitted to try 'an get a fight? My 'shit talking' was entirely about you refusing to fight me under any circumstances alone. This doesn't strictly pertain to the Order conflict between Artemis and Twilight, but also Aegis and Twilight when it was in effect (both times).

Caelan said:

Then he TELLSOFF so I can't reply and 2 minutes later does the same thing.

If someone uses TELLSOFF, regardless of the reason(s) being legitimate or not, messages are always at your disposal.

Caelan said:

So this time I just hit IGNORE because I really don't need to hear "lol ur a coward aegien" everytime he dies rushing Eleusians with 3:1 odds.

The number times we have engaged with 3:1 or even 2:1 odds is nil. If your group splits up to complete different tasks you should not expect myself, Astarod, or anyone else to wait until you are done raising, consecrating, or whatever it may be. It isn't as though you haven't done this to us. And yes, I will call anyone who refuses to duel, runs from me, insults me, and a myriad of other things a coward.

Caelan said:

Or even that he will hire on me for traps hitting "illegally", despite him justifying walking into a room where we are raising a shrine and just attacking 'illegally' ten times a day. 

Walking into about a dozen traps over the course of a week outside of any fighting is annoying and unjustified, in my opinion. I honestly wouldn't care if you were willing to fight over it. Nobody involved in that scuffle knew you were raising a shrine, as far as I'm aware. I didn't even ask to participate, @Astarod made everyone follow me because of Duanathar. In fact, I haven't led a single defiling run or fight against Eleusis or Artemis' Order. @Astarod gets all the credit for that. I assist in targeting and travel, if even. I have never suggested to any group or group leader that we should jump another group of people, be it post-raid or after dying to the fifth worldburn; I'm not a fan of it. I tell people not to literally every single time it is suggested. Yesterday I thought "Whatever," and decided to go because I was already being followed.

Astarod

Guys, chill. Hahahaha. @Caelan I actually complimented you and @Xandir for that one skirmish you guys had a good synergy for. Honestly, I shoulda led the follow up skirmish, but the only reason I engaged Xandir and you guys was cause he told us (basically invited to skirmish. I even left some people behind so it'd be 3 v 3. I even brought martien so that it wouldn't be like, Me, Ajoc, and Cyro vs you guys and Skiffia. 

Honestly, people get too riled up on combat. I never log on forums if I'm angry. it's stupid to, no offense. Even if you have a point (which some people do), it gets lost in baseless and personal diatribes, and the arguments over semantics. Can we all agree that sometimes we win, sometimes we lose, and most of the time, we have fun?

I got worldburned 6-7 times yesterday, and I'm not even salty (because we dropped 6 shrines) and the cost of essence must have been super fucking high hahaha. But the point is, we're having fun. Lets just drop this, because it really doesn't matter. If you hide in your city, you'll be called a coward. Hell, I get called a coward a lot because I ignore duels so I can RP for a little bit. I don't -always- want to fight all the time. Haters will be haters. I just ignore them, I don't actually ignore them. Haven't had to do that yet.