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What Happened To You Today?

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  • JacenJacen
    I've never lost an issue for lack of IC resolution. Maybe your issues weren't as cut-and-dry as mine?
    image
  • CynlaelCynlael
    lol @ issuing over non-grief PK.

    Especially lol @ issuing without even saying a word.

    lol @ 'I've never lost an issue' Hi Ernam.

  • JacenJacen
    Cynlael said:
    lol @ issuing over non-grief PK.

    Especially lol @ issuing without even saying a word.

    lol @ 'I've never lost an issue' Hi Ernam.
    About what I expected from you.

    When people choose to blatantly ignore the rules, I issue. They're being the aggressors and they're breaking the rules, I don't see why the onus should be on me to play by their terms. They can be aggressors and not break the rules, and that's perfectly valid, but when they do something like rune a whole area, enemy and defile, or yank a person into the room to attack before any attack or witness has happened, I'm going to issue.

    Thank you for both the partial quote to change my meaning, and the attempted insult by calling be by another person's name. 
    image
  • EthoasEthoas
    Jacen said:
    I always went straight to issues for blatant rule breaking (Attacking shrine defenders for witnessing under the previous rule, attacking shrine defenders before they do anything now). Conversations about such things have never panned out for me, you can't mention things being against the rules without being accused of "insanity" and them thinking they have the upper hand now that you've "broken the IC/OOC barrier". The last iteration of the Mark system was a complete joke, so I just never saw the incentive to leave such sure situations up to chance.

    Besides, IC resolution doesn't really teach someone to stop breaking the rules, which is the major fault there, I think.
    lol'd
  • JacenJacen
    Thank you for your valuable input to this conversation.
    image
  • MelodieMelodie Port Saint Lucie, Florida
    Murad exclaims, "I give you Black Oceans!"
    @Skye for reasons.
    And I love too                                                                          Be still, my indelible friend
    That love soon might end                                                         You are unbreaking
    And be known in its aching                                                      Though quaking
    Shown in this shaking                                                             Though crazy
    Lately of my wasteland, baby                                                 That's just wasteland, baby
  • AshelynneAshelynne
    All you people and talking about blademaster. Stahp making me want to multi blademaster. -_-

  • BluefBluef Delos
    edited October 2015
    Tyamat said:
    I am sorry in advance I am on my phone for this.

    The story so far is, I hear for two days about someone bugging citizens of Hashan to buy house items for them. Finally get tired of the person not getting the hint and enemy them before I go to work. Not three hours later I get a couple messages complaining that the someone is still at it. At this point I am looking at this like a case of the person harassing citizens and novices until they get what they want. Once it got to this point I placed a bounty because come on take the hint. The someone never contacts me doesn't say a word to anyone that I know of about it other than that they are/have issued. Mind they challenged one citizen to a duel and died before the person with the bounty killed them.

    Now the initial issue was placed against the minister of maritime affairs (who can do bounties since when?) Still no contact with me to resolve said issue. Finally the someone figures out that they issued the wrong person and issues me. With yet still no contact. 

    Issue gets upheld under grounds of illegal pk yet I am told that each individual could have killed the someone.

    From my perspective I see this as being told that this someone can harass my city and it's novices and as the city leader I can do nothing about it officially.

    I am confused how this is illegal pk in the first place. Harassment against citizens and attempting to get them to break laws is a legitimate RP reason for a bounty. The bounty was not placed after just one or two instances but after multiple and an enemy status followed by even more instances of harassing novices and citizens to break laws for this person.

    I fully stand by my choice to place a bounty on this someone and plan fully on helping to fund all of the Hashani contracts on them for the harassment of novices and citizens.
    I don't understand how purchasing House items is a city offense. Can you clarify? This would seem, on its face anyway, to suggest that it should have been handled by those organizations and their leaders, not the city. City bounties are for specific crimes committed against a city: Raiding, killing denizens, etc. from my understanding (per Tecton), which may have been why it was upheld. 

    You're right though: It makes absolutely zero sense that simply asking someone to do something shady like this would result in a contract. This has been a pretty standard backroom business deal for a long time in Achaea. There have been entire shops devoted to selling these kinds of items acquired in this and other crafty ways. I think, personally, the person hiring would have to show some pretty serious IC justification beyond, "They asked me to buy things for them..." If that's hire-able, I have about a zillion contracts to take out.

    Roleplaying that you're a shady person wanting to deal in House items isn't harassment, by the way. Let's be clear on that. Likewise, you could have done something else about it IC: Ask for a single volunteer/city fighter to slaughter the person (Amranu being an excellent option for Hashan, specifically!). The champion would have had all the IC RP-justification needed to withstand any issue against them.

    How does this differ from a bounty? Well, it's one player taking on the responsibility of the outcome, rather than the entire city. The individual would need to react to that one player IC first before issuing and I doubt it'd be an issue they would have won in the end because their actions directly led to the fighter killing them.
  • AntoniusAntonius
    Sending a city fighter to slaughter the person is exactly what the bounty system is meant to be for, no?

    Results of disembowel testing | Knight limb counter | GMCP AB files

  • BluefBluef Delos
    edited October 2015
    Antonius said:
    Sending a city fighter to slaughter the person is exactly what the bounty system is meant to be for, no?
    Yes, but for specific crimes against the city, such as raiding, totem smudging/uprooting, killing denizens. It wasn't designed to be used for subjective crimes like this from what I understand. There should usually be justification in the city logs or totem logs to uphold a bounty's purchase.

    But again, that's the entire city purchasing a player's death; whereas, one fighter, taking it upon themselves to sort the problem out, is a different can of worms. It would require the shady person to resolve the issue IC first and foremost with the person who killed her and that fighter would have substantial RP justification on his side. 
  • JacenJacen
    That fighter wouldn't have much justification at all on their side. That would be circumventing the mark/bounty system, which I doubt is looked favorably upon. No doubt the fighter would lose that issue.
    image
  • AntoniusAntonius

    @Bluef I guess I'm just not seeing the distinction between putting up a bounty and a city official sending/asking for somebody to go kill them, with or without the promise of payment. That's still very much the city requesting that the person is killed.

    If a citizen decides - without any mention from somebody in a position of power within the city - to handle it, then that would be different.

    Results of disembowel testing | Knight limb counter | GMCP AB files

  • BluefBluef Delos
    edited October 2015
    Jacen said:
    That fighter wouldn't have much justification at all on their side. That would be circumventing the mark/bounty system, which I doubt is looked favorably upon. No doubt the fighter would lose that issue.
    Antonius said:

    @Bluef I guess I'm just not seeing the distinction between putting up a bounty and a city official sending/asking for somebody to go kill them, with or without the promise of payment. That's still very much the city requesting that the person is killed.

    If a citizen decides - without any mention from somebody in a position of power within the city - to handle it, then that would be different.

    They'd have plenty of IC justification. It would be the same as if someone was pestering Bluef's daughter in-game. The daughter can't do anything about it, but Bluef will hoist the hell out of the person and drop them on their head in a heartbeat. The justification? I'm her mom. Leave her the hell alone. I wouldn't be able to hire on said person, but I could certainly roleplay a reaction, which may lead to that person's death. 

    The main difference here is that the bounty was put up by the City, whereas each and every adventurer who was pestered could have roleplayed their own reaction, such as hiring, asking another individual else to intervene on their behalf, etc. When it became a "city" thing, is where the justification was lost because that's not what the system was created to deter, especially in regard to House items. 

    That's just my take on things. I could be wrong, but having had some experience in the past in dealing with misplaced city bounties it's my best guess as to how things could have/should have been handled. 

    Edit: The result too would have been the person hiring on me/the fighter in that situation above, not running straight to an issue without any attempt at IC resolution.
  • TyamatTyamat
    Bluef said:
    Tyamat said:
    I am sorry in advance I am on my phone for this.

    The story so far is, I hear for two days about someone bugging citizens of Hashan to buy house items for them. Finally get tired of the person not getting the hint and enemy them before I go to work. Not three hours later I get a couple messages complaining that the someone is still at it. At this point I am looking at this like a case of the person harassing citizens and novices until they get what they want. Once it got to this point I placed a bounty because come on take the hint. The someone never contacts me doesn't say a word to anyone that I know of about it other than that they are/have issued. Mind they challenged one citizen to a duel and died before the person with the bounty killed them.

    Now the initial issue was placed against the minister of maritime affairs (who can do bounties since when?) Still no contact with me to resolve said issue. Finally the someone figures out that they issued the wrong person and issues me. With yet still no contact. 

    Issue gets upheld under grounds of illegal pk yet I am told that each individual could have killed the someone.

    From my perspective I see this as being told that this someone can harass my city and it's novices and as the city leader I can do nothing about it officially.

    I am confused how this is illegal pk in the first place. Harassment against citizens and attempting to get them to break laws is a legitimate RP reason for a bounty. The bounty was not placed after just one or two instances but after multiple and an enemy status followed by even more instances of harassing novices and citizens to break laws for this person.

    I fully stand by my choice to place a bounty on this someone and plan fully on helping to fund all of the Hashani contracts on them for the harassment of novices and citizens.
    I don't understand how purchasing House items is a city offense. Can you clarify? This would seem, on its face anyway, to suggest that it should have been handled by those organizations and their leaders, not the city. City bounties are for specific crimes committed against a city: Raiding, killing denizens, etc. from my understanding (per Tecton), which may have been why it was upheld. 

    You're right though: It makes absolutely zero sense that simply asking someone to do something shady like this would result in a contract. This has been a pretty standard backroom business deal for a long time in Achaea. There have been entire shops devoted to selling these kinds of items acquired in this and other crafty ways. I think, personally, the person hiring would have to show some pretty serious IC justification beyond, "They asked me to buy things for them..." If that's hire-able, I have about a zillion contracts to take out.

    Roleplaying that you're a shady person wanting to deal in House items isn't harassment, by the way. Let's be clear on that. Likewise, you could have done something else about it IC: Ask for a single volunteer/city fighter to slaughter the person (Amranu being an excellent option for Hashan, specifically!). The champion would have had all the IC RP-justification needed to withstand any issue against them.

    How does this differ from a bounty? Well, it's one player taking on the responsibility of the outcome, rather than the entire city. The individual would need to react to that one player IC first before issuing and I doubt it'd be an issue they would have won in the end because their actions directly led to the fighter killing them.
    Since you so asked

    1) It becomes harassment when they complain to me that it is happening, if they did not care then I would have never heard about it and nothing would have been done. But person was pushy about it.

    2) Its was not the act of asking for the items that got person in trouble with me or the city. it was how it was done and that person would not stop and kept pressuring and pushing trying to get their way. Once again if no one had complained to me I would never have known and would not have cared. Or I may have known and still would not have cared much since this kind of thing does happen.

    3) answered already

    4) So the admins and you are saying that it is better for the 12+ Hashan contracts and the (no clue Siduri help me out here) X Targossas contracts to be sent on this person rather than letting the city as a whole deal with it one time.
  • BluefBluef Delos
    edited October 2015
    Tyamat said:
    Bluef said:
    Tyamat said:
    I am sorry in advance I am on my phone for this.

    The story so far is, I hear for two days about someone bugging citizens of Hashan to buy house items for them. Finally get tired of the person not getting the hint and enemy them before I go to work. Not three hours later I get a couple messages complaining that the someone is still at it. At this point I am looking at this like a case of the person harassing citizens and novices until they get what they want. Once it got to this point I placed a bounty because come on take the hint. The someone never contacts me doesn't say a word to anyone that I know of about it other than that they are/have issued. Mind they challenged one citizen to a duel and died before the person with the bounty killed them.

    Now the initial issue was placed against the minister of maritime affairs (who can do bounties since when?) Still no contact with me to resolve said issue. Finally the someone figures out that they issued the wrong person and issues me. With yet still no contact. 

    Issue gets upheld under grounds of illegal pk yet I am told that each individual could have killed the someone.

    From my perspective I see this as being told that this someone can harass my city and it's novices and as the city leader I can do nothing about it officially.

    I am confused how this is illegal pk in the first place. Harassment against citizens and attempting to get them to break laws is a legitimate RP reason for a bounty. The bounty was not placed after just one or two instances but after multiple and an enemy status followed by even more instances of harassing novices and citizens to break laws for this person.

    I fully stand by my choice to place a bounty on this someone and plan fully on helping to fund all of the Hashani contracts on them for the harassment of novices and citizens.
    I don't understand how purchasing House items is a city offense. Can you clarify? This would seem, on its face anyway, to suggest that it should have been handled by those organizations and their leaders, not the city. City bounties are for specific crimes committed against a city: Raiding, killing denizens, etc. from my understanding (per Tecton), which may have been why it was upheld. 

    You're right though: It makes absolutely zero sense that simply asking someone to do something shady like this would result in a contract. This has been a pretty standard backroom business deal for a long time in Achaea. There have been entire shops devoted to selling these kinds of items acquired in this and other crafty ways. I think, personally, the person hiring would have to show some pretty serious IC justification beyond, "They asked me to buy things for them..." If that's hire-able, I have about a zillion contracts to take out.

    Roleplaying that you're a shady person wanting to deal in House items isn't harassment, by the way. Let's be clear on that. Likewise, you could have done something else about it IC: Ask for a single volunteer/city fighter to slaughter the person (Amranu being an excellent option for Hashan, specifically!). The champion would have had all the IC RP-justification needed to withstand any issue against them.

    How does this differ from a bounty? Well, it's one player taking on the responsibility of the outcome, rather than the entire city. The individual would need to react to that one player IC first before issuing and I doubt it'd be an issue they would have won in the end because their actions directly led to the fighter killing them.
    Since you so asked

    1) It becomes harassment when they complain to me that it is happening, if they did not care then I would have never heard about it and nothing would have been done. But person was pushy about it.

    2) Its was not the act of asking for the items that got person in trouble with me or the city. it was how it was done and that person would not stop and kept pressuring and pushing trying to get their way. Once again if no one had complained to me I would never have known and would not have cared. Or I may have known and still would not have cared much since this kind of thing does happen.

    3) answered already

    4) So the admins and you are saying that it is better for the 12+ Hashan contracts and the (no clue Siduri help me out here) X Targossas contracts to be sent on this person rather than letting the city as a whole deal with it one time.
    Harassment has a very specific definition in Achaea. That's all I was pointing toward: This situation doesn't fit it. Is it annoying? Sure. But they can simply choose not to respond and report it to the city, so there's an awareness of the issue. Problem solved as far as interactions go.

    Again though, I don't see how the sale of House items relates to the City. Everything done, said, etc. to adventurers in a city doesn't automatically mean the city should get involved after all. They aren't trying to phase into Hashan are they? Even if they were, why wouldn't you just set the person up? Have someone say sure! Come on in! Then kill them mercilessly. 

    Again, I think each individual person would need to decide whether they really have justification to hire. Asking someone to do something isn't automatically hire-able. If it was true pushing, pestering, annoyance and the like, then sure. If someone, for example, insults me once am I going to hire on them? Probably not. If I'm repeatedly insulted in public? You betcha there'll be consequences.

    Each situation would be unique, meaning that simply asking wouldn't automatically result in a contract; it would depend on what was asked, how it was asked, etc. The resolution could be that this person never asks that person to do this again and they don't. Problem solved! Or it could be that the person doubles their efforts, pestering the same person despite the request and they're hired upon (by that one person). 
  • SiduriSiduri
    I've dealt with at least three harrassed novices. But I'm 1/5th of the council.

    image
  • BluefBluef Delos
    Siduri said:
    I've dealt with at least three harrassed novices. But I'm 1/5th of the council.
    It sounds like a great opportunity for city roleplay, reinforcing why <insert city name> doesn't permit such shady dealings, the value of House items, etc.

    I don't know if the possession of House items can even be used as justification for a House to take action anymore; does anyone else?
  • TahquilTahquil
    With the renaissance the separation of City and House has nearly been obliterated. Each House now works with their city's main goal in mind, functioning nearly akin to other city ministries. Each city, of course, has different ways of how the view their own houses and if Hashan wants to say (and maybe pass a law in the future) that perceived harassment of the Houses under their care interfers with the day-to-day working of their city then so be it.
  • BluefBluef Delos
    Tahquil said:
    With the renaissance the separation of City and House has nearly been obliterated. Each House now works with their city's main goal in mind, functioning nearly akin to other city ministries. Each city, of course, has different ways of how the view their own houses and if Hashan wants to say (and maybe pass a law in the future) that perceived harassment of the Houses under their care interfers with the day-to-day working of their city then so be it.
    I don't think that even this would allow for the use of the bounty system though. 
  • TyamatTyamat
    Tahquil said:
    With the renaissance the separation of City and House has nearly been obliterated. Each House now works with their city's main goal in mind, functioning nearly akin to other city ministries. Each city, of course, has different ways of how the view their own houses and if Hashan wants to say (and maybe pass a law in the future) that perceived harassment of the Houses under their care interfers with the day-to-day working of their city then so be it.
    Really to me it had less to do with the house items and more to do with the complaints of being pushed pestered and bothered constantly about something. Anything really, if someone had pushed bothered and bugged them about anything and I had multiple people complain to me I would do the same to them. Unlike most people I could care less about the items honestly. I could care less about the person who pushed pestered and bothered the citizens of Hashan.

    I am not here to talk about Hashans Ideology with its house I am not here to talk about who did what or how the items are house only. Because I dont care about that. its some code in a game. I care about the people who have come to me or the other regents of Hahshan because someone had to have something and had to push for it.
  • KyrraKyrra Australia
    There is always the ignore function.

    I've placed a few people on ignore now that have ceased to leave me alone after repeated requests to do so.
    (D.M.A.): Cooper says, "Kyrra is either the most innocent person in the world, or the girl who uses the most innuendo seemingly unintentionally but really on purpose."

  • BluefBluef Delos
    edited October 2015
    I think the underlying problem just surfaced: I'm not sure city leaders are responsible for the citizens in this way, really. These are players experiencing problems with another specific other player. They should be therefore dealt with it that way: By the individual players involved. If it's really harassment, the admin will deal with it when they see issues resulting from the 12+ contracts come through (if the person's response is to issue rather than simply stop what they're doing). Otherwise, it's up to the shady character to decide if the deaths are worth the off chance someone might actually comply and decide to help them.
  • BluefBluef Delos
    Shirszae said:
    You are being wilfully obtuse. If the citizens involve the city leaders, then it starts being a problem for the city leaders as well. You might not want them to be involved, but that doesnt mean that them getting involved is somehow bad form.  

    You don't really -get- to choose how people react to you. You might have a preferred way you want people to explore, but when people choose another, it doesnt mean theirs is somehow less valid than yours.

    That being said, I know it can be frustrating when things don't exactly pan out the way you want them to pan out, or when people apparently react in ways you cannot quite understand. But that is just the way things are sometimes.
    I'm not sure who this is directed at because I was trying to help clarify why the issue may have been upheld. I'm not being insensitive to anything; I was a Regent for years and understand how these things go. I'm just sharing why this shouldn't be a mountain but a mole hill for the city. There are a myriad of other options and opportunities available for dealing with this sort of thing apart from using the bounty system in a way it wasn't intended to operate.
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