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House Renaissance

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  • ThessalyThessaly

    Trilliana said:

    1. Yes, some people won't like the concept, but I'm sure a lot of other people will. In another thread, in another section, the idea of Knighthood was brought up. I've been playing for a good... near 8 years I think? For almost the entire time, I was doing Knighthood stuff. Got it, and promptly had to go dormant. I came back and already knew that, RP-wise, my character would always have the same demeanor, but has always had a scientific mind- so I left the Wardens and went Alchemist. I don't like the fact that I had to leave the Wardens to continue following my RP. It was heartbreaking to see the Warden House fall, but it needed to happen. Things need to happen in this game, and this game constantly evolves for a reason. To keep the players interested, and to bring more players in. Hell, Trilliana finally got to meet her grandmother, that was dormant since before I even started playing.

    2. I don't even recall the event with the Serpentlords, but my character's God got killed off, along with many others, and many of her Ordermates have moved on to other Orders. Should they be looked down upon for accepting that the past happened and that life should move on? Just because something is GONE, doesn't mean the history or even the tradition in the House or Order or City or whatever is wiped away.

    3. Meh, that's your opinion and it sounds like a very lonely, boring existence unless you found something besides seething hatred for something that happened.

    4. If your Runewarden has to give up being a Knight? Who said that there wouldn't be some sort of Knighthood? Sure, it's up to the Houses, but it could eventually come about if it isn't already in the works. And YOUR RP is informed by YOU, the Player. You have ultimate control in what your RP is, and guess what, like actual people, it can change. Characters change constantly and that's because they can Roleplay it.


    TLDR: Bolded


    1.  I'm not debating the merits or drawbacks to the House Renaissance or people's IC/OC reactions to it.

    2.  I'm not saying that people shouldn't move on.  Whether they do or not is entirely up to them and the direction they wish to take with their roleplay.  I'm not saying the history and tradition is gone either, but rather that the history and tradition may prove a stumbling block to smooth assimilation into any of the new houses, especially since it seems that there isn't going to be much closure with the dissolution of many of the existing houses.

    3.  Yes, that is my opinion, and your response is your opinion.

    4.  I was referencing something @Aerek said at the start of his post.  As for your bolded response, my RP is not informed by me, the player, but by my class, house, order, character personality and identity. You are correct, though, that the ultimate control of my RP lies with me.  However, reversing my IC attitude to resolve the dichotomy between my IC position and my OC position is metagaming for my emotional and intellectual convenience, not roleplaying.

    5.  Lastly, the tone of your post implies that I don't have as much experience roleplaying as some of the people here.  While it is true that I am a newcomer to Achaea, Achaea is neither the bastion of all RP, nor is it the oldest.  I have been involved in RP games since the 1980s and amateur theatre as well.  If I have misunderstood the tone of your post, then I apologize.  If not, then perhaps you should check your assumptions at the door.

    TLDR: Bolded

  • ThessalyThessaly

    Jacen said:
    God, yes. You people have got to let some shit go. This game has changed a ton over the years that shit that flew back then does not fly now. I mean hell, the Serpentlords bought the Black Lotus their most recent Icon, you'd think we would have worked past this shit by now.

    I'm not the one that is holding on to it, I merely brought it up to illustrate a point.  I would, however, point out that you saying the Sect of the Black Lotus has moved on, would be like Russia saying they've moved on from their invasion of Georgia.  Easy to do when you were the victorious aggressor.

  • NellaundraNellaundra
    If you refuse to adapt in any way to the world, you're going to get your shit kicked in, probably literally and metaphorically. Just make sure that you know that. Being in a house isn't required at all. If you want to go "NO I WILL NOT JOIN THOSE ICON MURDERERS" (also Icons are really easy to manage, just need a lot of gold and shards) then you're entirely free to do that. But don't be surprised when people go 'what the hell is wrong with you, it was just an Icon'

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  • JacenJacen
    Thessaly said:

    Jacen said:
    God, yes. You people have got to let some shit go. This game has changed a ton over the years that shit that flew back then does not fly now. I mean hell, the Serpentlords bought the Black Lotus their most recent Icon, you'd think we would have worked past this shit by now.

    I'm not the one that is holding on to it, I merely brought it up to illustrate a point.  I would, however, point out that you saying the Sect of the Black Lotus has moved on, would be like Russia saying they've moved on from their invasion of Georgia.  Easy to do when you were the victorious aggressor.

    Lol, I think you need to check your own assumptions at the door.


    The Black Lotus wasn't even the Black Lotus when this went down. It was the Kharon. We don't have anyone in leadership who was alive when this situation went down, and the only member that was alive then that comes around with any regularity is Sobriquet. None of us have any attachment to that situation whatsoever.


    Furthermore, I wasn't suggesting that the Black Lotus had moved on, I was suggesting that the Serpentlords had moved on, by the fact that the Lotus Icon standing now was donated by the Serpentlord House, for our defense of their Icon over several months after losing our own.


    Most everyone has moved on, including the Serpentlords (as an org). This friend of yours will only cause trouble and pain by dredging up facts of the past that no one on our side was even alive for.

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  • ThessalyThessaly

    Jacen said:

    Here's the thing. You can choose to have your character RP being a contributing, helpful member of the new changes. You can choose to have your character RP being an indifferent member to the new changes. You can also choose to have your character be antagonistic to the new changes, but don't be surprised if this option finds you cityless, and don't be surprised when people like my character won't have anything to do with your character. 

    If there's one thing I'm sick and tired of in Achaea, its the (thankfully decreasing) number of individuals in Hashan who would rather play a character antagonistic to other citizens than the world. We've got a solid group of people now, so we're not as susceptible to it as we used to be, but someone like that could still cause a ruckus. I'm just ready to fight people outside of our org instead of the people in it.




    Why should I have to worry about becoming cityless?  Is becoming a member of a house going to be a new requirement in every city, as it is in Mhaldor?  If so, that will increase the number of cityless as well as houseless rogues.  Unless I missed a post, not everyone's house rank will carry over to the new houses.  If that is the case, I can foresee many people choosing to not join with a new house, only to go through the novice program again.  Changes like the House Renaissance should be inclusive, not exclusive.

    This is not happy fun agreement land, this is a microcosmic reflection of the world.  That means that you will have people who disagree and are willing to go to extremes for their ideology, platform, whatever.  Lastly, you speak of being ready to fight people outside your org.  Which org are you talking about?  Hashan, The Sect of the Black Lotus, your order(if you have one), or the game itself?  If the city, then you are choosing city above house.  If house, then what you want for the good of the city is irrelevant, because you seek it at the cost of other citizens.  If order, then you potentially betray your oaths to both city and house, at which point you are the one causing the ruckus.  Then again, how do you define ruckus?  Is it any who disagree with you? 

    The fact is I disagree with the changes and even be antagonistic to it, and still be contributing.  That contribution may even be helpful.  If that puts me at risk of becoming cityless from the leadership of the city, then they are simply stifling dissent and suppressing the opposing views.  At which point, I would be proud to be cityless and won't care that people like you want nothing to do with me.

  • ThessalyThessaly

    Jhaeli said:
    I can appreciate the attitude that your roleplay is reinforced by what goes on in-game, but in the end, your roleplay IS in your own control. That doesn't mean automatically reversing your IC attitude, but it can mean finding a way to come to accept something without losing who your character is. 

    I usually dislike using real life examples as an analogy, but for instance, my mother lost her husband to brain cancer. At the time, she was heartbroken and she mourned for a long time. More recently, she found someone else to bond with and there's talk of engagement in the air - she's obviously found a way to move on from her grief, without letting go of what was her past. 

    For something that is happening in a much smaller time span, such as the change in Houses, you have a choice - your character can continue to be upset about it, which is a perfectly viable option as long as you're willing to face the consequences (Houseless, disagreed with, etc.), or you can find a way to accept the changes in a way that nevertheless feels true to the character. It depends on the direction that you want to take your character in as a PLAYER, which is what I think Aerek's original point was.

    This isn't to dissolve Iocun's point, as the administration does have a responsibility to give fuel for making momentous character decisions, and it doesn't mean that your character won't grieve in either case, but in the end, it is up to you as a PLAYER to decide how you'd like your character to react to these changes and up to you as a PLAYER to accept the consequences.

    This is actually more or less the point I was getting attempting to get across, that the change is up to the player, as the see it within the framework of the character.  My problem with @Aerek's post was the implication that everyone should accept it and move one for the good of the game.  I'm sorry, but I see that as the substance of his post.  If that was not the point he was trying to make, then only he can clarify that.  You are correct that it is the player who has to decide and the player who has to accept the consequences, but if it isn't in line with the character's position, then this isn't something that should change overnight.  It's something the character will have to come to grips with and that takes time, unless your character is the type to make life altering decisions on the flip of a coin and at random intervals.

  • JacenJacen

    Meh. I can tell by the fact that you expect my city, house and order to work in opposition in some capacity that you are one of those people.

    I'll just say that if you are intentionally working against the grain of the administrators, the Patron, the city leadership, and the majority of the citizenship, you should expect your RP to have some pretty bad consequences. Its entirely your choice if you want to continue that line of RP or not.

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  • BluefBluef Delos
    edited June 2014
    Jacen said:

    Meh. I can tell by the fact that you expect my city, house and order to work in opposition in some capacity that you are one of those people.

    I'll just say that if you are intentionally working against the grain of the administrators, the Patron, the city leadership, and the majority of the citizenship, you should expect your RP to have some pretty bad consequences. Its entirely your choice if you want to continue that line of RP or not.

    The truth is that Hashan has been a messed up can of worms for centuries because without being a theocracy the patrons have always tried to assert a vision over and against the people's will. I saw this prior to the introduction of blademaster during the era of Saltaern as Seneschal and original House Treaty, and I'm sure it was going on long before (and after). 

    The new House system is probably going to make it a lot easier to castigate the naysayers, sure. But conflict is still going to exist in cities. Unless every city is becoming a theocracy with a dictator-type ruler, then House members, citizens and order mates will still disagree on the vision for their principality long after the new Houses are established. It is really folly to think otherwise. 

    As for disagreement having negative consequences, that all depends on a) How far the cities are willing to take this whole unity thing (the more people you cast out the greater the number of those in the rogue ranks) and b) your definition of "negative" -- Some people like to stand up for what they believe IC and enjoy the roleplay involved, even if it means moving on from a city that has nothing in common with their character's aspirations anymore.  


  • ThessalyThessaly

    Jacen said:
    Thessaly said:

    Jacen said:
    God, yes. You people have got to let some shit go. This game has changed a ton over the years that shit that flew back then does not fly now. I mean hell, the Serpentlords bought the Black Lotus their most recent Icon, you'd think we would have worked past this shit by now.

    I'm not the one that is holding on to it, I merely brought it up to illustrate a point.  I would, however, point out that you saying the Sect of the Black Lotus has moved on, would be like Russia saying they've moved on from their invasion of Georgia.  Easy to do when you were the victorious aggressor.

    Lol, I think you need to check your own assumptions at the door.


    The Black Lotus wasn't even the Black Lotus when this went down. It was the Kharon. We don't have anyone in leadership who was alive when this situation went down, and the only member that was alive then that comes around with any regularity is Sobriquet. None of us have any attachment to that situation whatsoever.


    Furthermore, I wasn't suggesting that the Black Lotus had moved on, I was suggesting that the Serpentlords had moved on, by the fact that the Lotus Icon standing now was donated by the Serpentlord House, for our defense of their Icon over several months after losing our own.


    Most everyone has moved on, including the Serpentlords (as an org). This friend of yours will only cause trouble and pain by dredging up facts of the past that no one on our side was even alive for.

    ...let me be very clear.  I am not a serpentlord.  I have never been a serpentlord.  I'm not judging the fact that the Serpentlords have moved on, it's been a long time, after all.  I don't really care whether you've moved on either, it's not my concern.  Just because the majority of the current membership either wasn't around back then or is not concerned about what they consider ancient history is irrelevant, because the houses still stand at the moment.  To those who lived through it, it has shaped their perception of each other's houses, and while times have changed, the fact is there are still those who remember. 

    Perhaps it wasn't the best choice, but I didn't bring up this incident to throw blame on the current membership of the Sect of the Black Lotus, I brought it up to illustrate a point about how someone from that time would likely have nothing to do with any House that has members from a former house enemy.  This was to refute @Aerek's post about how people can just go have an epiphany that contradicts a central tenet of a characters identity.  You immediately seized on this, to complain about how people need to let things go, because it's different now and you shouldn't have to put up with it any longer.  This is not germane to the point I was making, so maybe you should check your assumption that I or my friend are trying to stir up trouble between the Black Lotus and the Serpentlords.

  • NellaundraNellaundra

    Can we take the topic away from Hashan before the thread gets gassed like all the others? Admins will get to it when it's their turn.

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  • AchimrstAchimrst Nature
    I agree with @Nellaundra we should all be fighting about Mhaldor.

  • EiredhelEiredhel California

    I'm just enjoying not being involved. :) 


    @Tecton are the types of House governments being changed, as I think there could be some helpful adjustments to the way the government types work as they are all pretty much dictatorships with a few minor differences regarding those who aren't the actual leader....

    And what can we as players do to possibly help with any possible adjustments in that area. 


    To the players: how many houses are dealing with their choices democratically? Are people discussing them with their House members first to establish the whole's terms? Or are most houses just focusing on the present leaders?

    Meow, meow, etc. 
    Eiredhel's Family Tree

  • AtalkezAtalkez

    Ashtan is last?


    Weep





    Penwize has cowardly forfeited the challenge to mortal combat issued by Atalkez.
  • AsmodronAsmodron

    sigh, people what is with the 500 word essay replies? It is called a 'comment', a -comment-. We are here to read the opinions and ideas of others, not hold lengthy and painful to read/skim over debates. Truth

  • TrillianaTrilliana

    That's why I put a TLDR on mine. I'm personally excited by the changes and I know many others are as well. And I can also see why people aren't so excited. We put so much into our characters and their Orgs, but things happen. Life wouldn't be interesting without change and different opinions. And people can change their ideals with an epiphany (insert cold turkey quitting of smoking or drinking or drugs reference). It happens IRL, why not in game? (why not zoidberg? (V) (;,,;) (V)


    meh


  • AsmodronAsmodron
    edited June 2014
    Jarrod said:
    Asmodron said:

    sigh, people what is with the 500 word essay replies? It is called a 'comment', a -comment-. We are here to read the opinions and ideas of others, not hold lengthy and painful to read/skim over debates. Truth

    If it's too tough for you, there's this new technology on the market that helps to avoid getting distraught over posts you clearly find too difficult to read for whatever reason.


    It's not that its too difficult to read, it is simply tiring to have to read overly long essay comments about one's opinions (or comments to others' posts) which can be downsized into simple bite-sized comments. The simple fact of it is, if you want your comments and perspectives to be read, then make them cleaner and more to the point, else people will, as you said, "scroll away". I like to see the other opinions, but I admit I will and do just scroll away from the overly length posts that can so easily be stated in 1 paragraph.


    Edit: I mean I have literally seen just now hefty and essays written over dissatisfcation from one of the Hashani houses that could have easily been simplified to a much more manageable comment. Truly people, as some chefs say: Less is more in this case.

  • AtalkezAtalkez
    edited June 2014
    Asmodron said:
    Jarrod said:
    Asmodron said:

    sigh, people what is with the 500 word essay replies? It is called a 'comment', a -comment-. We are here to read the opinions and ideas of others, not hold lengthy and painful to read/skim over debates. Truth

    If it's too tough for you, there's this new technology on the market that helps to avoid getting distraught over posts you clearly find too difficult to read for whatever reason.


    It's not that its too difficult to read, it is simply tiring to have to read overly long essay comments about one's opinions (or comments to others' posts) which can be downsized into simple bite-sized comments. The simple fact of it is, if you want your comments and perspectives to be read, then make them cleaner and more to the point, else people will, as you said, "scroll away". I like to see the other opinions, but I admit I will and do just scroll away from the overly length posts that can so easily be stated in 1 paragraph.


    Edit: I mean I have literally seen just now hefty and essays written over dissatisfcation from one of the Hashani houses that could have easily been simplified to a much more manageable comment. Truly people, as some chefs say: Less is more in this case.

    Your response to @Jarrod‌‌was itself nearly 150 words.

    When you feel strongly about something, it isn't hard to post a novel. This is why conversations irl are sometimes hours on end.





    Penwize has cowardly forfeited the challenge to mortal combat issued by Atalkez.
  • VayneVayne Rhode Island

    Who is this @Thessaly person and why do they think they know what they are talking about in the slightest?

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  • AchimrstAchimrst Nature
    Vayne said:

    Who is this @Thessaly person and why do they think they know what they are talking about in the slightest?

    One of the metagaming crew?

    Why are you asking me hard quiestions!

  • SeldinSeldin
    Thessaly said:
    I spoke with my friend, and he said that you might not remember it because you weren't on that night.  If the house as a whole has moved past it, that's fine.  Not everyone will have let it go, and that was my point.  Without some closure, the new houses will be trying to improvise a house out of nothing and doing so with a great many disparate factions from different house cultures.  Additionally, without closure, there is less of an impetus to drive people forward into the collaborative effort to create the new houses as a cohesive whole, instead of trying to preserve as much as possible from their fallen house.  If you already have IC reasons to be accepting of the change, then I say no harm, no foul.  I just find @Aerek's suggestion distasteful, because it implies that character identity is irrelevant to what actions you choose to take with your character.

    I will even ask people about it IG (on OOC channels, of course) whether or not our Icon was destroyed by the BL. Bet it'll be a no. Something that significant I'm sure I would have heard about, despite not being around.

    Also, w.r.t bolded: I don't see this being an issue at all with the Serpentlords. Improvise a House out of nothing? No. How about something along the lines of the Serpentlords sponsoring a new organisation to rise up in Hashan and continue the art of assassination/espionage/theft/etc while the Serpentlords themselves move back into more of an underground sneaky/dodgy/dodgy-man-in-an-alleyway-selling-suspicious-items method of operation. I think that'd probably be a pretty reasonably RP justified move IG.

    Not saying that'd happen, but what you're claiming is jumping to conclusions. Well, if that's happened in Cyrene, then so be it. But it may not happen everywhere.

    Jacen said:

    The Black Lotus wasn't even the Black Lotus when this went down. It was the Kharon. We don't have anyone in leadership who was alive when this situation went down, and the only member that was alive then that comes around with any regularity is Sobriquet. None of us have any attachment to that situation whatsoever.

    Were there hostilities back in the Guild days as well? I'd only really came to know of issues with the Lotus in my time in the Serpentlords.

  • SenaSena
    edited June 2014
    Seldin said:
    Were there hostilities back in the Guild days as well? I'd only really came to know of issues with the Lotus in my time in the Serpentlords.
    The Kharon weren't always a Hashani guild. I don't think there's anyone they weren't hostile with at some point.
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