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Comments
Asmodron said:
Cyrene still having devotion users.... Targ jr.
Grandfathering is such crap. You've a real opportunity to start anew and actually sever ties with Targossas.
I'm in the camp that all devotion users should be in targossss or excommunicated
That's almost definitely not going to happen. Grandfathering may not be ideal, and some of you hate it even more than it probably deserves, but I can't think of a better alternative to accomplish the goal of severing those ties, and you're absolutely right that there is no time like right now to do it.
Also, I want to make clear that Cyrene really follows the Targossian outline:
1) Combat-oriented House (Strongly aligned with the ideology, of course)
2) Writing-oriented House (You may call yourself a painter, but by MUD standard, you fit the writer niche)
3) Influence-oriented House (Mercantile endeavours, political representation, etc.)
Now give each of them fluff to go with the City's ideals and you 1) cover all the overall interest bases, and 2) still manage to give each of them a unique feel beyond the simple "We're knights, but from this place, duh".
I like this, and Cyrene's Houses seem very fitting. As for those who bitch and moan about previous leaders being put in leadership position, ask yourselves why the heck weren't you, yourself, in a leadership position in the previous Houses. Chances are you'll find your answer.
Just so much harder to push through. With grandfathering, you can make changes without pissing people off too much, and you still get the same end result, just not immediately. Without grandfathering, you have a cleaner slate right away, but will have so much opposition from the playerbase.
Which city besides Eleusis still has an amount of forestals that can be considered significant in any way?
→My Mudlet Scripts
I'm pretty optimistic about the new houses, but I do hope the old leaders are able to take the freshly minted houses in directions that are appropriate to the new, broader ideologies.
That's an OK third party opinion to have, whatever. Now imagine runelore became Cyrene's factional skill. You have no choice in the matter, it's already done, but they haven't decided whether they're going to grandfather non-Cyrenian runelorists in or not. What's your opinion on it now?
To be fair, devotion has always been a "factional" class by the letter of the law, while runelore has always been strictly non-factional (unless you count guilds I suppose?), so there would probably be serious player rage if a class like runewardens were suddenly factionalized with no grandfather clause. Still, the would-be restrictions on devotion have never, ever been enforced in the way that people are discussing in this thread (although I'm sure Melodie feels a bit differently), and there would be quite a big, understandable shit-storm if people were recalled en masse. And what would you get anyway? A bunch of pissed off non-coms?
who cares about noncoms?
Hi. *waves hand*
You don't count... dirty noncom
I just honestly picked a skill that she's stated she likes and a city that she's stated she doesn't like, because... well... that's the actual scenario Cyrenian devotionists would fall in if they were suddenly cut from their classes en masse.
And it's not very different from runelore historically either, since Cyrenian devotionists have a historical precedence to exist. If my sources are right, there was actually a decision point where Cyrene chose between occultism and devotion - it likely wasn't a very difficult decision to make, but it was still a decision that was made.
Yes... so you still want them?
My concern is that if people can't let go of their somewhat quixotic hatred of grandfathering, exactly nothing will happen, Cyrene will continue to mint new devotion users, and our fate as Targrene will be sealed, and no one seems to want that.
The same opinion I always have every time it's brought up. Grandfathering is stupid and exceptions are stupid. If you're going to have these hard-coded things in place, do them all the way. Which includes kicking forestals out of cities that chose to have alchemists.
I'd rather adapt to a clean start than see more favouritism where X gets to stay for such and such a reason but nobody else gets to do the same. I was disgusted when Targossas grandfathered in forestals. If the admin's really all anti-alliances, put a stop to grandfathering on factional classes like forestals, devos, necros, and occies. Let people decide whether they love their class or their city more.
But grandfathering is not favoritism in any way, shape or form. Nor is it unreasonable for a city to decide that while they want no further x kind of people moving in, they will allow those who already live within the walls as a reward for services rendered or whatever else. Its a politically sound move. Its not favoritism because they are not giving it to some and denying it to others. They are giving it to all current citizens, to the liked as well as to the disliked.
At least thats the way I see it.
And you won't understand the cause of your grief...
...But you'll always follow the voices beneath.
Outriders could be awesome, depending on several factors. eg. Is their estate a mountain lodge, do they have a drawing room with a fireplace surrounded by the taxidermied heads of their conquests where they retire after adventures to sip 'nog and regale each other with tales of farflung places, does their tutor sell pith helmets, are they in effect Fellowship of Explorers: The House, etc.
They seem to have been dealt an interesting hand, but they'll need work and support to develop beyond very, very general themes into an organisation with a culture and a purpose beyond 'people in this category go here'.
I can only view them as British in this context. "I say, awfully hot isn't it? Where can a fellow get a proper cup of tea 'round these parts?" I have several .gifs of Jonathan Carnahan from The Mummy but I will restrain myself from posting them.
I agree with this only in the context of Cyrene, as it is not ideologically opposed to Good. The reason Necromancy was able to be forcibly recalled to Mhaldor is because pretty much all cities have taken formal stances against Evil, now including Hashan, whereas even if Cyrene is somewhat frosty towards Targossas now they have never been in actual conflict and have a much, much longer history of working together.
Until something happens to fundamentally put Cyrene and Targossas at war with one another, much like the nature vs cities angle that set Eleusis at odds with Targossas (even if this event has watered that down somewhat), that's not going to drastically change. It would actually make very little sense to not grandfather longstanding citizens in because there isn't a compelling argument for why not - I'm sure a credible one could be spun, but arguments such as these need to be immediately obvious rather than hypothetical debates to carry any weight. Targossas could decree that Devotionists must be Targossan or be excommunicated, but it seems a bit too late for that.
Stories by Jurixe and Stories by Jurixe 2
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(No we couldn't.)
(you're killing my immersion again)
Oh, well then. Even less likely!
Stories by Jurixe and Stories by Jurixe 2
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this depresses me far more then it should
so basically @Asmodron you would want Cyrene to become Retainers as in FF14, where you send them on an adventure to find you items, and suddenly they return saying "Hey, I found this for you!" and give you some bronze coins and a stone roof from a random house.
Artemis says, "You are so high maintenance, Tharvis, gosh."
Tecton says, "It's still your fault, Tharvis."
My guess is that yet another problem, beyond devotion users being allowed to be neutral-good since at least 2005-ish (when I began playing) is that more characters have spent significant amounts of money on their chars than in "the good old days". It's been way too long, and the (somewhat older) player base has spent more real money.
70-something and rising, iirc.
ETA: Them's a lotta dollars, and I'm not surprised Tecton is hesitant to let me excomm them. The disappointing thing is that they won't make moves to change this for the future by disallowing new Devotionists in Cyrene.