House Renaissance

Jhaeli

Iocun said:

Jhaeli said:

Trilliana said:

Lucine said:

On the subject of 'What if you don't think any of the houses work for you?'  Well, my opinion is this:  The new houses are just starting and don't have a ton of history.  I really think that this is a great chance to forge a path and make a niche for yourself in whatever house you want. 

As much as @Branwen disagrees, this is entirely true. I've even heard it from several founders from the new Houses. If there's a certain niche you want for the House you want to play, and you don't see it right off the bat, it doesn't mean that one of the Houses can't naturally evolve that idea.

The founders are being given less than a week to fill out an inner structure for a BRAND NEW HOUSE. There is going to be PLENTY to contribute, especially in areas that can't just be brainstormed and must be developed through an active populace, such as culture and traditions. If folks can go into them with an open mind and be willing to contribute, everyone will have an opportunity to carve a niche for themselves.

Will things still change and adapt? Yes.

Will there still be people who don't find a house that's tailored to their personal preferences? Yes.

Was this already the case before? Yes.

I don't think getting new houses will have a substantial effect on how much the average player will be able "feel at home" in the long run. The available options will fit for some and not fit for others, as always.

Don't disagree with this. But some of that is true of any inclusive organisation, period. You could say the same about cities.

And I said LESS THAN. Closer to half a week. Would love to see you do in 40 minutes though, while working in a group. I could put a House together in 40 minutes too if my opinion was the only one that mattered.

Nim

Jules said:

Nim said:

This is kind of getting sickening.

I actually think when Thessaly came along, it was a chance to pounce on someone relatively powerless,

Just pointing out things.

Also, @Aerek: it's true that the players have a responsibility to play along with the GM, but the GM also has a responsibility to give the players a world to play in.

@Iocun: Actually, the Cyrenian houses look so vague that I think it'd be hard not to fit in any of them, even if the Outriders have a definite Hufflepuff feel to it. My concern isn't that people won't find a place in a house, but that the houses are... not perhaps too vague, but...

Well, I don't know a lot of stories, but I've heard that some people in the combat house, while they're definitely Cyrenian combatants, I feel like they'd much better fit in one of the other houses. I know that Nim, in spite of her ridiculous drive to become a good combatant (it had and still has me, her player, programming for hours on end, she is that crazy!), definitely would fit in any of the three houses.

I just hope the point of the houses isn't to educate just house members, but the populace at large. And I hope they're open and willing to use outside resources for that goal. Otherwise, the three houses might end up competing over resources, and suffer as a result.

Iocun

Jhaeli said:

Don't disagree with this. But some of that is true of any inclusive organisation, period. You could say the same about cities.

Of course. And I don't even think it's a bad thing. Attempting to please everyone would almost forcibly involve making orgs incredibly general, uncharacteristic, bland. I very much think that orgs should dare to be peculiar.

Eiredhel

Isn't it up to the Houses themselves how general they choose to be? I'd hope that and feel like the Admins wouldn't force our hands THAT much... I mean if they did that'd mean they were going to go and make adjustments to High Clans at some point. Or everyone who wanted to do anything unique would just try to do that and we don't really have enough active divine to patron x amount of houses and 100 high clans heh. 

Maybe I'm just being optimistic, but I think how general and specific the Houses are would rest in the hands of those negotiating. I'd assume the only thing that is not negotiable would be what classes one has to have and having a patron. 

Aerek

Iocun said:

Will things still change and adapt? Yes.

Will there still be people who don't find a house that's tailored to their personal preferences? Yes.

Was this already the case before? Yes.

I don't think getting new houses will have a substantial effect on how much the average player will be able "feel at home" in the long run. The available options will fit for some and not fit for others, as always.

I disagree. The issue wasn't that there were players didn't identify with the Houses, it was the sheer number of those players and the ratio they made up of the population. Cyrene, in particular, had a lot of rogues because of how exclusive or strict its Houses were. If I'm not mistaken, the entire Senate was all rogues for a time, and I think only one was in a Cyrenian House when the Houses were actually removed. When nearly our entire city leadership isn't using the city's houses, it's pretty clear we have a problem.

Yes, there will still be some folks who don't identify with any of the new houses, but in the grand scheme of things, I expect the number of those people to decrease. I think we'll see a high ratio of rogues for the time being, (Most long-standing rogues will just remain rogues, and I expect a lot of player obstinacy and refusing to join the new Houses at first) but over time as new players come in and don't know any different, and old players accept the new Houses and join, I think the new system will go a long way to make Houses more palatable to a broader spectrum of players, (Not only in ideology, but with novices taken care of outside Houses. I love novices, but they can cause a lot of burnout if there aren't lots of House members to share the workload.) which means more folks join and interact with each other, which is beneficial to everyone involved.

Iocun

I didn't make any speculations on rogue numbers pre- and post Renaissance. You may very well be right that in the long term, there will be less rogues. But joining a house does not necessarily imply a feeling of said house being "just the right one for me". It can mean that, but it can also merely mean "It's not perfect, but I guess I can make my character work in that house".

Since house class limitations are no more, the chances of the latter probably increase, but since the number of houses in total is going down, the chances of a house being a great fit may well decrease in turn.

Which of the two will affect players more depends mainly on how important their class is to them. For players who consider their class a more important character trait than house culture, the change will definitely widen their options. And granted: this applies to many players.

In any case, I still hold to my point that it is a "win some, lose some" situation. Win more RP options while keeping your class, lose concentrated RP niches. I do not think that the number of housed players alone suffices as a measurement of player happiness.

As for lots of Cyrenian senators being rogues: I really don't think it's relevant whether rogues are in leadership positions or not.

Nim

Iocun said:

As for lots of Cyrenian senators being rogues: I really don't think it's relevant whether rogues are in leadership positions or not.

Disagreed with this. The only house that seemed to have any actual recognition was the Wardens, and mostly because their oaths to the city and knighthood being officially recognized by the city itself. The lack of leadership in houses definitely creates a drift effect.

The bards have a powerful Cyrenian identity, and the Mojushai certainly have ideals that would likely fit nowhere else but in Cyrene, but I've still wondered from time to time why the Mojushai or the Arcane Kindred are even Cyrenian houses. It seemed like an entirely coincidental relationship from time to time - like a rogue who happened to buy a house in Ashtan versus Eleusis.

Cyrene's leadership being so uninvolved definitely contributed to this feeling.

Of course, the above is all just from my perspective rather than anything objective - but if others feel the same way I do (and I think more than a few people have), then it definitely is relevant in so very many ways.

'Course, I personally don't think all that's a bad thing, but then again I like inner conflicts and contrasting elements and stuff like that. S'why Nim has so many of them ... and, come to think of it, most of the characters I end up liking~

Iocun

I probably just worded this poorly.

I didn't mean to say that it doesn't matter for a city whether its leaders are in a house or not.

I meant to say that the house membership of city leaders isn't a better indicator of whether "houses are working" than the house membership of non-city leaders. The RP preferences of those in city leading positions aren't more relevant to the topic at hand than the RP preferences of the general populace.

The number of city council leaders isn't statistically relevant, so them not being housed is not necessarily an indication of a general trend.

Jacen

I'd say it's a significant indicator of the quality of the Houses, if the players who choose to and succeed in becoming a leader of a city choose not to be a member of any of that city's Houses. Its sensible that they don't join a House now, because no one would blame them for not wanting to deal with HR3-4 requirements on top of their responsibilities to the city, but the fact that they gave the time and effort to become relevant enough to achieve leadership positions, but either left or never joined a House beforehand, indicates that there are some issues with the Houses.

Iocun

Giving time and effort to become a city leader doesn't make you exceptionally qualified at judging houses. It makes you exceptionally qualified to lead cities.

I don't see why having spent time and effort on any sort of activity should make your actions suddenly more a reflection of the game as a whole than of your personal character.

Being distinguished in some form doesn't make a person's actions indicative of "the average".

Jacen

I'd agree that a single city leader not being Housed isn't a big deal, but if we're talking every senator not being Housed, I think that's pretty indicative of a problem.

Iocun

Sounds like a fun game to pick out a singular moment in time, in a single city of the game, look at the decisions of a tiny group of people at that point, and take that as an indicator for how things are working in the game as a whole.

Jacen

If you pulled 5 John Does off the street and they were Houseless, that's indicative of approximately nothing. I'm just saying that I think the people who lead a city are more invested in that city, and if all of them aren't members of the biggest supporting orgs of that city, then something's fishy. 

Madelyne

Trilliana said:

Lucine said:

On the subject of 'What if you don't think any of the houses work for you?'  Well, my opinion is this:  The new houses are just starting and don't have a ton of history.  I really think that this is a great chance to forge a path and make a niche for yourself in whatever house you want. 

As much as @Branwen disagrees, this is entirely true. I've even heard it from several founders from the new Houses. If there's a certain niche you want for the House you want to play, and you don't see it right off the bat, it doesn't mean that one of the Houses can't naturally evolve that idea.

Exactly. For example, even though the Virtuosi is the house of arts and crafting, members of the Outriders, which from my understanding is a scholarly and exploration house, get a design requirement so they won't feel left out by not being part of the arts and crafting house. Because obviously making one crafting design encompasses everything that the Virtuosi represents.

Ruth

Made an alt and went through the whole thing to get a feel for the new renaissance houses and process. This is what I feel we can expect from new City-oriented houses, as far as I can tell from Cyrene:

 - After the Houses are founded, founders were given 5-6 days to get all initial requirements written into scrolls. Similarly, elections will open up to decide who will be the HL and what will be the House's governmental style. After the 6 days are up, the Houses will be open for joining.

 - City Novicehood tasks will also need to be completed by all (including non-novices) who seek to join the Houses. The tasks are started at the city tutor and ends at the city tutor. You can only join through the city tutor after you finish these tasks.

 - The tasks (history, city laws, city geography, simple tasks to introduce each House) are able to integrate having individuals look through CHELP scrolls or by reading journals from the library as part of task completion. When you are done with all your tasks however, you will not get a notification of completion. Therefore, I assume that this is purposeful to allow some space for people in charge of city novice academies to cook up a graduation ceremony or something.

I can't say for sure how each House functions more than what I can see from an external point of view, but process-wise, it makes me pretty excited.

Halios

Having been through every incarnation of the guild/house system, I'll say that my general opinion is that it's a good thing.

Guilds were stuffy elitist organizations that held your lessons over your head.

The rework into houses was a good progression from that archaic system.

I feel very strongly that given the switch from Guilds to Houses, it was very problematic that many leaders and citizens clung to the single-class-oriented atmosphere that the prior guild held, even though now those houses admitted many classes.

The merging of houses into multiple-class organizations was positive, but kind of a band aid, in my opinion, for a larger problem.

Class should really not dictate your direction ingame. Just because you chose a class that someone decided in a city was to be roleplayed in a certain general vein, you feel pushed and prodded into that direction by your house. Yes, there are outliers. Yes, people can break the stringent RP of their house and be an individual. No, I don't believe you should have to go through some immense effort to pursue your personal goals and path.

I like the idea of houses being "path" oriented. Hopefully as a result of this change, leadership can begin to be more equal between the different paths. It is well known in some cities (not solely speaking of Mhaldor, nor even is it directly applicable in some cases) that there are some paths that are highly under-represented in leadership, for whatever reason. This isn't some conscious, malicious conspiracy, it's just how the game has evolved in some cases.

Regardless, if the leadership is, in effect, segregated from some of the citizenry's chosen paths and goals, then it creates an "us vs. them" situation where you need intermediaries to serve as bridges between those who might be cynically looked at as "paper pushers" or "administrative players" vs. those who are combatants, thieves, roleplayers, bashers, merchants, whatever it is.

I really hope that there is some sort of high clan system in place for some of the more well-established historical organizations like the serpent houses, or the clergy in the various cities, the various knighthood orgs, etc.

---

All that said, I'm sure the implementation won't be perfect. Nothing is. This is a player-driven game. We'll just need to all suck it up and go with it, and shape it in our ideal form as a collective. 

A favorite of mine that is relevant to the discussion at hand: "If you don't like something, change it. If you can't change it, change your attitude." - Maya Angelou

Sylvance

I loved Guilds, hated Houses, and very much look forward to seeing what the next incarnation will do to my heartstrings.

Jhaeli

Madelyne said:

Trilliana said:

Lucine said:

On the subject of 'What if you don't think any of the houses work for you?'  Well, my opinion is this:  The new houses are just starting and don't have a ton of history.  I really think that this is a great chance to forge a path and make a niche for yourself in whatever house you want. 

As much as @Branwen disagrees, this is entirely true. I've even heard it from several founders from the new Houses. If there's a certain niche you want for the House you want to play, and you don't see it right off the bat, it doesn't mean that one of the Houses can't naturally evolve that idea.

Exactly. For example, even though the Virtuosi is the house of arts and crafting, members of the Outriders, which from my understanding is a scholarly and exploration house, get a design requirement so they won't feel left out by not being part of the arts and crafting house. Because obviously making one crafting design encompasses everything that the Virtuosi represents.

Uh, not sure if this was intended to come across as as snarky as it did, but the idea was for our students to get an appreciation for both of Cyrene's other Houses and there's a requirement in each of our Newcomer tests to reflect this. It's really just a simple way to add in a "fun requirement" AND provide an opportunity to foster understanding between the Houses, because that was one of the problems with the previous incarnation. Obviously making a craft design does not encompass everything that the Virtuosi represent, but if you have something else to suggest as a small, fun requirement for a newcomer, I'd be happy to hear it!

Iocun

Hrm, there still are "newcomer tests" in the new houses? Weren't cities supposed to take over novice training?

Jhaeli

The intro and city tasks cover "newbie training", yeap. That doesn't mean HR1-2 aren't still "Newcomers" into the House. 

ETA: There's a difference in focus. We aren't worried about herb counting, etc. and so forth anymore. There's more focus on being introduced to the House itself.  

ETA in reply to Iocun's post below, since there was no point in adding another post: We also made a point of trying to eliminate anything "essay-ish", despite being a info-gathering kind of place and make them easier, more fun, but still relevant. In the end though, a House is still a House. 

Iocun

Makes sense, I guess!

Not that stuff like "herb counting" ever was the hard/time-consuming part of novice training to begin with though. The time consuming parts have always been the house specific ones, so I guess the change isn't that huge after all.

Madelyne

Jhaeli said:

Madelyne said:

Yadda yadda yadda, for length.

Exactly. For example, even though the Virtuosi is the house of arts and crafting, members of the Outriders, which from my understanding is a scholarly and exploration house, get a design requirement so they won't feel left out by not being part of the arts and crafting house. Because obviously making one crafting design encompasses everything that the Virtuosi represents.

Uh, not sure if this was intended to come across as as snarky as it did, but the idea was for our students to get an appreciation for both of Cyrene's other Houses and there's a requirement in each of our Newcomer tests to reflect this. It's really just a simple way to add in a "fun requirement" AND provide an opportunity to foster understanding between the Houses, because that was one of the problems with the previous incarnation. Obviously making a craft design does not encompass everything that the Virtuosi represent, but if you have something else to suggest as a small, fun requirement for a newcomer, I'd be happy to hear it!

I'm pretty snarky, as a rule, so even if I don't mean to sound that way, sometimes I do. No offense intended. But instead of doing work that duplicates what's in the other house, what about something like ... "Lead me to an artisan in the city. Tell me a little about their history, from what you find in news or the library." That seems a lot more scholarly, not to mention open-ended, than "let's practice designing a crafting item". Not to mention, discussions are always more fun and interactive than boring essays.

For a Shield requirement, how about... "Interview a member of the Cyrene Army. Discuss what you learn with a house member." Kind of like investigative journalism, Achaea style. You could have them write down their Q&A in a letter, which you could paste into a manuscript for your house library. I loved looking back through Ty Beirdd's old manuscripts and seeing things people wrote back when. And someday... this will all be back-when for the current generation of novices.

Nim

If you really want to emulate other house's requirements, you could also have them pick a house and ask that house for their tier X requirements, then do some of them and give a lecturequizessay on the experience.

Jhaeli

ETA: Thought better of it. Not really worth discussing here.

Jules

I joined the house with the shortest titles.  Seriously.  Also, good job with the no essays, which I think at least Shield and Outriders are keeping at bay?  The artsy folks better like essays anyway.  But yes, seems that the message came through loud and clear that most players hate essays (or even things that aren't called essays, but are in fact, essays).  Shield shorten your titles and I'd be hopelessly torn (especially as I think you guys need more people), but Outriders has a ship program, eeeeeeeeee.  It was very difficult choosing.  Also, three more clans for people (the Academies), and the "I might want to be a knight someday" clan.  On the one hand, yes, the clans have interesting ideas and might prove useful, but holy hell I think everyone is feeling the clan pain  No.  Bad.  But all in all, I'm absolutely giddy about the exploration program and House ethos.    

EDIT:  to be fair, most people are already in the combat one, but yeah, org clans in Achaea (not just Cyrene I'm guessing) are totally out of control.

Trilliana

Actually @Jules there's no essays in the Virtuosi. There's story-telling, yes, but no essays

Unad

Whether it is an essay, a new scroll, a story, a sermon .... 200 words is still 200 words. I know it is a text game, but for the people who are in it for the action, those essay type requirements are killers.

Iocun

Unad said:

Whether it is an essay, a new scroll, a story, a sermon .... 200 words is still 200 words. I know it is a text game, but for the people who are in it for the action, those essay type requirements are killers.

Well, to me there's a difference between creating an in-game document or "speaking" in-game by writing words. The former does indeed feel similar to writing essays IRL, requiring a planned layout, mastery over form and polished expressions. Essays that are about in-game talking however, typically allow you to improvise much more, don't tend to have particularly great formal expectations, and, quite importantly, also allow for interactive aspects, ranging from live input from your listeners to reacting to the current weather, etc.

This makes me usually prefer doing the latter to the former by far. It allows for actual live roleplay in contrast to simply writing a text on your computer. I also prefer attending that kind of event much more than having to read an essay, because it's happening in real-time, can be influenced by other people, can speed up or slow down depending on the audience, and so on. In short: it feels much more integrated with the game world than essays ever are.

I do agree on the "200 words is 200 words part" though in the sense that I'd personally never ask for a specific word count in a requirement. Asking for word counts means rejecting improvisation and basically requiring people to pre-write lectures/speeches/sermons word by word, and I never enjoy that so much.

Jules

I may have been too subtle in saying "even things that aren't called essays, but are in fact, essays", because people will say "well, it's not really an essay".  If you find yourself saying that to yourself or others, it's probably an essay.  Also, yes to doing it interactively.  

Kinilan

You know something is fucked up when the prefered alterative includes reacting to Achaea's WEATHER SYSTEM. That thing is so broken you'd think it tried to ride Eastern Express.