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Comments
Apostates were different though, they are literally a part of the evil faction, you can be anathemized. What is Twilight going to do to Shaman? Disconnect them from the "Spirits"? There are spirits in the damn forest does he control those too? All shaman abilities, other than runelore, have a heavy connection to "spirits"
It has always been my assertion that Alchemists would be easier to control for the city and with their connections to Astronomy and the RP that Hellen has developed it connects the class to all three of the Triad Gods. Just have something happen to the other anchors for the other cities and you have yourself a factional class. Take away their Transmutation and give them a Darkness based ability and you have exclusive control over the class.
Forcing shaman to only RP having a connection to the "Spirits of Darkness", which I might add I don't even think exist, is kind of a stretch to me IC and OOC. They would need to first actually develop "Spirit" RP into something...anything really there is just a bunch of books written on it that you can research IC and that my character has researched IC. No where in there does it say Twilight is the God of Spirits and the only conclusion I have been able to make on the whole thing is that if there ever was or is a god of "Spirits" it's Proteus or just Sarapis himself.
@Bluef you just sound upset that things aren't going to be the status quo any more.
I forgot about tradeskill separation nvm
Alchemist would never become a faction class. It was implemented specifically to give people (Mhaldor) an alternative to forestal cures and to allow Eleusis to recall forestals ala necromancy/Mhaldor and devotion/Targossas, strengthening the forestal identity.
Not every city needs a class for themselves and while I can see the argument for Cyrene having bards, I would argue that perhaps bards already naturally gravitate there because Cyrene portrays itself as the centre for arts, so there's no need to 'factionalise' it, so to speak. What reason would Cyrene have for restricting Bard class membership - for bad poetry? (In which case, 90% of bards would need to class change).
In the case of Hashan, it's a pity to hear (though I have no idea of how true these allegations are) of the low visibility and non-activity of the Spirit Walkers. However, I suspect that factionalisation may be precisely the thing to strengthen the Shamanic identity by tying it to Darkness, and one could very well argue that it already has a very strong history in Hashan. Yes, not everyone is going to be happy about this if it did happen, but neither were Occultists/forestals in Mhaldor happy about having to give up their professions either, nor were Devotionists (few as they were) in Eleusis/Hashan. Yet despite this the game is much better, in my opinion, for the consolidation of these identities and if Hashan/Darkness were to do the same, I think it would be worth it.
The complaints about the lack of roleplay (whether or not they are valid) may even be addressed through this - there is nothing more compelling than a clear sense of identity and ethos, which in turn may provide a driving force to attract new players and to give existing ones inspiration and motivation to create.
(bah Jovolo ninja'd me, I'd also forgotten about tradeskills. I guess in that case Alchemist might have a stronger case, but I still think that Shamans would be a better fit to revive their identity.)
Stories by Jurixe and Stories by Jurixe 2
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@Mithridates you just sound like your poking at people to get a rise out of them, this is supposed to be about serious discussion. Go back to Ranting Menace?
I agree that Hashan does get the short end of the stick, but it has nothing to do with classes or having limited classes. I think that after the Renaissance happens there it might get better and really help that city out a lot.
I am being serious. She's all about maintaining history, which is all well and good, but when you have archaic, ancient institutions in place still it stifles new blood and doesn't allow the newer players to really grow because they're limited by all these old, crotchety people like Bluef here. People are complaining that it's going to undo people's legacies, but guess what? It's going to create the opportunity for new players to make their own legacies.
I disagree, Shaman are, as I have been saying, about Spirit RP. They are literally the most Neutral class out there, I mean they use spirits... either for good or evil or for lolz. Shaman don't have an identity crisis, in my view you people have just never RP'd as one. I have and I can tell you that if Achimrst went around Hashan telling Twilight. "The forest has spirits, we shouldn't imbalance them to increase your power." He would get zapped and then kicked out of the city. Not to say I couldn't or wouldn't change my RP but I would find it very hard pressed for shaman to believe that Spirits serve all the divine and yet we just help Twilight with his goals. It would definitely need some kind of reason why the spirits for other gods wouldn't be something Shaman would want to help.
While on the other hand, Alchemists are already tied to the Triad by the Institute of Hashan's RP and all you have to do is have Twilight claim all the anchors and BAM he controls them.
Also since people have forgotten Trade skill separation, Alchemists will not have Transmutation so all non-forestal cities will have a comparable way to get curatives!
I'm a rogue. Why the hell would I care?
Album of Bluef during her time in Achaea
Alchemists are in prime position to become Hashan's factional class due to the dominance of the Institute, the coming trade skill split, and the natural historical and aesthetic ties between the class and Night/Astronomy. I'm certainly not an expert on Shaman history and culture but it seems their is not many of them anywhere, and it is disappointing to see all the established Walkers play Occultists mainly for the combat abilities. Shaman are probably one of the least populous classes regardless of the city or group in question, and the biggest concentration of them seems to be lobbying far too hard for their relevance in general.
The Institute has built itself up into a center for RP opportunity in Hashan though and I think it would be wise of the admins to take advantage of that fact in the upcoming changes.
Obviously you do care, or you wouldn't have commented.
We have to lobby for our relevance, clearly people don't even know Shaman have an RP history :P
I agree with you about alchemists. The Institute is arguably one of the best things Hashan has ever put together. I tip my hat to you and Hellen for the work you've done there. It's a fun program and the roleplay is consistent and well done.
As hard as it may be to believe it though, shamans are actually booming right now compared to where they were 10 years ago. We had so few even in Hashan and the Spirit Walkers that we barely had a reason to submit a classlead report. It was beyond sad.
We saw a huge resurgence when blight was re-worked and then another with the renewal of runelore and every change to the class as a whole seems to bring steady membership increases. Members may leave, but others take their place, which wasn't the case before curses was re-worked.
But yeah, we're not even in the running as far as population counts go in Hashan.
To me that is a good thing though - shamans and shamanic roleplay was always about connection to others, the guild as a tribe or small family, and service. You see that in almost every instance of a shamanic practitioner in the denizen villages of the realm. The class would do well as smaller tribes formed around clans, not as some haughty pseudo priest class refashioned to help factionalize a city.
That was never Firefox's goal for them. If founders' aspirations matter anymore in the slightest, which I'm not sure they do with the recent gossip out of Ashtan, I hope that is at least taken into consideration.
Alchemists would work out wonderfully as long as the issues @Jurixe mentioned were addressed in some way.
Album of Bluef during her time in Achaea
I find it interesting that the idea of grandfathering members of a class after that class has been recalled seems to see so much opposition. I mean, I can sort of understand the rationale for opposing it, yet it seems to have fairly empirically been an effective compromise between those who want classes to be tied to a city and members of those class who are part of a different city who don't want to lose their current rp (both views we have certainly seen expressed on the last couple of pages).
Specifically, when all cities except Eleusis banned new forestals, the results that were produced seem to generally be deemed successful. Despite allowing grandfathering, the number of non-eleusian forestals dwindled to near-nonexistance. I'd imagine that if a similar thing was done with shamans or alchemists, especially given how few members of those classes there are, we would see the same results occur.I'm not sure how this wouldn't be a good compromise that would both produce the intended results and avoid preventing players' existing rp
Obviously, I'm a shaman so I care about the future of that particular class. I also care that Firefox's vision for them is upheld in some way because he was an incredibly good friend. But as far as the rest of it, I couldn't care less.
I find the whole House Renaissance thing an ill-advised venture, but it probably won't impact me too terribly much as a rogue.
What is old, is new again. I've seen it before, I'll see it again. Things change. But the game isn't necessarily made better by the changes. If it was, I think we'd have many more veteran players with 10+ years of gameplay roaming the realm with regularity.
Album of Bluef during her time in Achaea
We'll probably count their value alongside the gold/credits etc. and they'll disappear.
The point of Hashan is to prevent the organized IC shaman's RP....literally....instead of Shaman RP being severely limited to either. Nothing in Hashan, or the lone rogue shaman/just a regular person shaman, as I call them, or the Curia shaman. It would be even more damaged by losing everything that the Curia has preserved from the past SW house and what they have built on IC through other gods, mainly Thoth. Not to mention Thoth is kind of an enemy of Twilight and a patron to the Curia shaman outside of Hashan.
Ah, hmm. All of them, or could we indicate which ones we'd like to see remain? It might be easier in terms of retaining post history and CLHELP files, and Houses might not need to repurchase new clans.
Stories by Jurixe and Stories by Jurixe 2
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Making shaman, runewarden, or bard factional would be very "fake" and mechanical, an arbitrary restriction that exists just because that's how the game works, instead of happening more naturally and having RP, history, and IC reasons behind it like the existing factional restrictions. I've argued this before so I'll just link those instead of reposting them here.
There are only two non-factional classes in the game right now that I could see being made factional without a large event and significant changes to both the class and the city; alchemist and mage. Both have very clear power sources that can be taken away, anchors and master crystals. Just have all but one destroyed somehow or made unusable (and in the case of crystals, remove the denizen selling them, maybe with the explanation that they just became a lot harder to get a hold of), and then one city can have exclusive access to alchemists or somewhat control access to crystalism (though it would still be possible for mages anywhere to get crystals, it would just become a lot harder).
I'm not complaining of any such thing. I'm telling you that those legacies, the history of these Houses, is the fabric upon which the canvas of Achaea exists.
If you think you can simply rip up that canvas, paint a new scene on it, and tape it back together and have it function with the same level of player participation and investment, you're wrong. No one has any reason to create a legacy if in 300 years it will be shredded just like these founders' aspirations for their Guilds are via the renaissance today.
I'm all for creating opportunities for new players. But if you think the only way to do that is to destroy the world so you get a chance to help rebuild it, your vision for new roleplay is probably too limited to appreciate a darn thing I'm writing.
As for me being old and crochety, wtf? Bluef is 312. She is, as Achaean age standards go, a mid-bie. She's not as old as Firefox and Rip, but not as young as the people who didn't live through Shallam falling or the discovery of Meropis. Moreover, I'm not Bluef -- so unless you're forum Rping, your insults make no sense.
Album of Bluef during her time in Achaea
I like to think that I'm decent at analyzing arguments, but I find that complete sentences are probably key to that in this instance. I actually can't make heads or tails of the first half of this.
In my eldritch opinion, it is not the so-called 'archaic, ancient institutions' that are the problem - it is high-ranking players who do not wish to give way for the young to take their place that are the problem. Imagine, if you will, a Targossas House, which is about the 'newest' of player-run institutions. Staff it with people who cling to power more securely than a black hole drags matter into its singularity, and it would experience the exact same problem as some of Shallam's Houses back in its nadir.
Shamans are allowed in Cyrene! It's amazing how many people don't know this. But arn't we derailing this thread a bit? As much as I'd love Bards to be Cyrenian only and for us to get rid of bloody devotion, it wont happen. Art is neutral and can be found everywhere and fits in with all beliefs. Derailing thread more.
Therefore I see nothing wrong in discussing factional classes as the reworked Houses would ideally need to look into such a thing.
To separate the classes from the Houses in this discussion wouldn't be terribly wise, in my opinion.
I don't think it is derailing as the issues are not mutually exclusive.
Also, thank you for the clarification regarding Shamans and Cyrene (that's why I said maybe Cyrene ;) )
It's okay, we only have like ONE and she's dorma- oh wait we have Kohilo or whoever, so two.
and sorry I think it's a bit derailing to talk about when this has been discussed many times before. It really goes in loops and constructive discussion is a lot more fun to read through! (Sorry if this comes out a bit condescending, I don't intend for it too.)
Also to put this in about Occultist: Cyrene used to accept them too, till Shallam made us quit doing it and we still have -one- albiet dormant! Cyrene as a city of Art should beable to accept any who want to come here. I feel the Wardens would be about defending and being a sanctuary, while Ty Beirdd would well show why Bards can't be Cyrene only. These are something -all- classes are suited to with life styles they can have in Cyrene.
But having factional classes is good for the game to set the cities apart, and I do wish Cyrene would have something since we lost Runewardens and Bards.
Just because we're about respect, art and stuff. Doesn't mean our little defenders shouldn't have the tools to defend with. (Which is why I am thankful for the very few devotionist who do defend, even if I'd rather devotionist get recalled x.x.)
Yes, I know. RP is hard to understand for most people. Sorry.
Alright, after some more wine and some pizza I have decided this is a problem of punctuation.
The point of Hashan is to prevent the organized IC shaman's RP....literally....instead of Shaman RP being severely limited to either: Nothing in Hashan (Meaning they do nothing with Shaman RP), the lone rogue shaman/just a regular person shaman (as I call them, although I am sure there is a better name for these kinds of shaman), or the Curia shaman (Which is clearly the kind of shaman I am). These are all labels I give in an RP setting, a rogue Shaman is always kind of a loner, not sure what Ashtani shaman do. *shrug* So I just call them a regular person who happens to be a class shaman.
It Our RP would be even more damaged by losing everything that the Curia has preserved from the past SW house and what they have built on IC through other gods, mainly Thoth. Not to mention Thoth is kind of an enemy of Twilight and a patron to the Curia shaman outside of Hashan.
Since I am not a lone shaman or an Ashtani shaman I am not sure what they RP a shaman as. I have always done my shaman as a believer in triple divinity, which isn't the Triad of Hashan. Yet I have to have somewhere to RP it out, as there is no general guideline for spirit RP. Spirit RP has always been vague and it works to some extent but people can get into large fights about it. Like what happened with Curia and SW house, which then turns into OOC fights about it apparently...although I have no idea why it went OOC were fighting about a fictional belief in religion OOC....it's insane to me and is one of the reasons I am sure I would never be able to be a Hashani factional shaman. I absolutely hate metagaming and bringing this stuff OOC is one of the stupidest things I have ever seen and it's why I like Eleusis now.
Just for the record the Triple divine are Twilight, Thoth, and Gaia. It is not canon RP at all but it is something my character believes and definitely something that can change in the future.
Everyone will hate the idea now, but once the trade skill split happens, it'll be fine again. :3
Magi have always been inherently 'good', in my opinion.