House Renaissance

Achimrst

Tohran said:

I had an idea for a darkness based class that utilized scythes. I remember sending it to Snareman a long time ago. I never kept a copy for myself, or if I did it's been deleted as of a long time ago. I gave it over before I deployed in 2010.

ooo, a darkness class with scythes sounds neat. Too bad the admins are against new classes right now, I'm excited to see what is going to happen even if some people think it's going to be weird.

Aerek

Iocun said:

@Aerek: Apart from the main point @Silas stated, I also wanted to add: I'm generally fine with adjusting my RP to cater to the demands of the world. But when the admins decide to topple the world over, I do not think it is dispropriate to "demand admin action" to help us to keep roleplaying in a credible and consistent way, because the admin action is already forcibly imposed on the situation. While it is the responsibility of the players to keep their characters consistent, it is the respinsibility of the admins to keep the world consistent. Trying to RP in a non-believable world is only fun for a short while.

I get what you're saying, I really do, I just also notice that Achaea has been shrinking for some time now, and almost every House has been struggling with membership issues. When faced with a choice between the health of the game and my personal RP, I know which one I'm going to choose.

Jurixe

I feel like that's not (or shouldn't be) a mutually exclusive thing, though. Personal RP is created and developed based on the confines of the game world, which in turn is developed by the administrators. While yes, the admins could use whatever justification they want for these OOC changes and call it RP without regard for the already established history of the players and the player-run organisations, I do think that far from helping retention, established players would not be able to continue their storylines because the deviation in logic and continuity would be too large to be able to make sense of it and, therefore, make continuing to play a believeable character in an immersive story difficult. The burden of 'making OOC decisions make sense' should not lie wholly on the player - it is in the administration's best interests to harmonise IG storylines and OOC workings as much as they are possibly able to continue to keep the interests of the players, and it has the side benefit of adding to the history of this world.

I mean, they could have just dropped Alchemy on us and said 'here you go, new class' (and sometimes they do, with smaller things), but there are reasons that there are roleplayed events and stuff to introduce larger OOC concepts and additions. When people ask, years down the line, 'so why did you guys move from being this org to being this org?', surely it makes much more sense and has much more roleplay value to say 'oh, because a huge undead dragon destroyed our city and it sank under the ocean so we had to start again' other than 'oh because the gods said so'?

Having said that, I also believe that most of this is purely hypothetical. I'm sure the admins and various leaders will do whatever they can to ensure as smooth a transition as possible, both logistically and story-wise, and while dialogue and opinion is great (and undoubtedly will help shape the process), people shouldn't get too overly worried at this stage as to what might happen. Your concerns have been raised; have faith in your leaders, and work with them to get the best possible outcome for both.

Jacen

@Aerek You sound like an incredibly stand up guy, and if Achaea was filled with people like you, there wouldn't be a problem. The issue is that a significant portion of the playerbase doesn't think like you, so we have problems.

I know, in Hashan at least, I wouldn't be surprised in the least bit if someone thought they could pursue the hard IC line of "X person destroyed this House to make one that he likes, he's power hungry and a horrible person" and get a political leg up on another player. 

We still have people in the Lotus who talk about how great the Kharon was and how much better they were than us and we should totally go back to being Kharon, let's take Kharon titles and do things the Kharon way. The presentation from the admin, ICly, needs to be "You HAVE to change, you don't have any choice in the matter. If its a casual shift into a new House, then you start doing things the same way you did them before, and all of the sudden you're the same House again in everything but name and class list.

Florentino

I'm personally kind of disappointed that on Mhaldor's side at least this is apparently being handled by Viceroys alone and none of the other Naga secretaries besides Mycen are going to have a say. Doubly concerning because instead of three houses (Naga/Luminai, combat/Dawnblade, Congregation/Harbingers) apparently there's discussion of only having two Houses in Mhaldor now...I would personally be very happy playing in a ritual/religion house like the Congregation, but it would be a damn shame to lose the assassin/spy/thief archetype the Naga have spent hundreds of Achaean years building up, and incorporating that properly into whichever House it goes into will be challenging. 

I saw what Tecton said about too many chefs spoiling the broth, but adding another ten or so people per city really wouldn't hurt that much, I don't think. Or maybe that was a decision Mhaldor itself made, who knows. I just want to make sure there's adequate representation, and a single House Leader doesn't necessarily always know or get the full range of ideas, activities, and forces at play in the House he or she leads. 

Jurixe

I really dislike the 15 minute post edit.

My intended addendum: It seems as though what is primarily being contested here is the method of justification of these changes, with some advocating hard resets to both force the playerbase to accept the changes and to give an unavoidable, blanket justification for these changes story-wise that will fit into anyone's tale, while others are (as far as I can see) going with 'it doesn't matter, we'll just adapt to whatever the admin does'.

I tend to agree with the administration that perhaps 'blowing up' might not be the best default reset button for all of these organisations, but I do agree that the changes should be sufficiently large-scale for the problematic organisations to signify an emphatic new start and should be different enough to prevent old traditions from simply being migrated over if they don't work. However, I would say that just as it isn't the sole responsibility of the player to make the most of the framework that the admin gives us, the push for change also cannot depend solely on the admin.

At best they can implement policies or reward behaviour that would push the organisation to adopt better standards, but if the people in power and who wield influence are consistently those that encourage stagnation or an adherence to the old ways (even if, to you, they didn't work), perhaps that's a problem with that particular playerbase in general. Note also that while this change should be seen as an opportunity to fix inherent structural issues and shake up leadership, it should not be treated as an answer to such. At the end of the day, the people are still going to be the same, regardless of what framework you put them in.

I think I've kind of derailed from the main topic, though, so carry on!

Katzchen

Florentino said:

I'm personally kind of disappointed that on Mhaldor's side at least this is apparently being handled by Viceroys alone and none of the other Naga secretaries besides Mycen are going to have a say. Doubly concerning because instead of three houses (Naga/Luminai, combat/Dawnblade, Congregation/Harbingers) apparently there's discussion of only having two Houses in Mhaldor now...I would personally be very happy playing in a ritual/religion house like the Congregation, but it would be a damn shame to lose the assassin/spy/thief archetype the Naga have spent hundreds of Achaean years building up, and incorporating that properly into whichever House it goes into will be challenging. 

I saw what Tecton said about too many chefs spoiling the broth, but adding another ten or so people per city really wouldn't hurt that much, I don't think. Or maybe that was a decision Mhaldor itself made, who knows. I just want to make sure there's adequate representation, and a single House Leader doesn't necessarily always know or get the full range of ideas, activities, and forces at play in the House he or she leads. 

Actually House Leaders didn't really have much of a say in Mhaldor's changes either... but I think what was chosen will work out well for the city. I very much doubt the Naga and Maldaathi ideals will be incorporated into sections of the new houses, they would be formed into clans.

Sherazad

> @Florentino said:
> I'm personally kind of disappointed that on Mhaldor's side at least this is apparently being handled by Viceroys alone and none of the other Naga secretaries besides Mycen are going to have a say. Doubly concerning because instead of three houses (Naga/Luminai, combat/Dawnblade, Congregation/Harbingers) apparently there's discussion of only having two Houses in Mhaldor now...I would personally be very happy playing in a ritual/religion house like the Congregation, but it would be a damn shame to lose the assassin/spy/thief archetype the Naga have spent hundreds of Achaean years building up, and incorporating that properly into whichever House it goes into will be challenging. 
>
> I saw what Tecton said about too many chefs spoiling the broth, but adding another ten or so people per city really wouldn't hurt that much, I don't think. Or maybe that was a decision Mhaldor itself made, who knows. I just want to make sure there's adequate representation, and a single House Leader doesn't necessarily always know or get the full range of ideas, activities, and forces at play in the House he or she leads. 

Ideas do not necessarilyneed to come from single house leaders (lol, unless that's how they roll). They represent the house and can start discussions within the house on what they expect would be good for the future. The only reason I wasn't able to discuss much about it with the Fist is because there wasn't really much information available at the time. Go talk to @Mycen if you have specific concerns about the Naga.

Katzchen

I'd been discussing it with Maldaathi leadership for months, but what the house wanted wasn't what ended up happening. There really wasn't much info available through most of it as Sherazad said.

Ruth

In my opinion, I don't believe the changes to how the Houses will be in the near future would affect the archetypes people will want to continue roleplaying as.

I believe that this is wonderful opportunity for all cities that should not be discounted. As the objective is to shape these new orgs around city ideals, surely most, if not all cities can find a place to slot all of the pre-existing archetypes (See: thief/assassin/spy for serpents, mind/body/spirit focus for monks, honor/chivalry/combat for knights etc etc) within each new House orgs.

Mathonwy

High Clans exist for a reason, and there will always be people who want to be knights/spies/thieves, and as long as those clans are backed with divine involvement/are more like Orders, I would imagine there wouldn't be a lack of membership in them.

Silas

I do think it'd be a shame for Mhaldor to go to two Houses, unless they make the Houses into what the Orders were with Shaitollyon? That just seems weird, though, to have Houses focused on Suffering or Oppression.

There are three distinct playstyles catered for in Mhaldor's Housss currently (EF will forever just be Mhaldor's class leftovers sry), and there's easily the playerbase to support three Houses in Mhaldor if we have the players to support three in Targ.

Would be a real shame to see the Naga folded into one of the other Houses rather than expanded into a new spy House, imo.

Jurixe

We do currently have a few more than there were, and I'm of course a very strong proponent of Naga roleplay, but I can see the argument for two houses as well. Naga membership has never been high, and for quite a few years there were less than five members active at any one time in the realms. We were trying to move away from the general combat/ritual/espionage format that most cities seem to be adopting, but I guess it could go either way. I don't think we'd do any less well as a clan, if it came to that.

Tohran

Achimrst said:

Tohran said:

I had an idea for a darkness based class that utilized scythes. I remember sending it to Snareman a long time ago. I never kept a copy for myself, or if I did it's been deleted as of a long time ago. I gave it over before I deployed in 2010.

ooo, a darkness class with scythes sounds neat. Too bad the admins are against new classes right now, I'm excited to see what is going to happen even if some people think it's going to be weird.

I don't have much to do today at work, I'll bring my notebook and start jotting down ideas again. While the admins aren't accepting new class ideas right now, it will take a lot of time for me to figure out all three class skills (no trade skill of course, with the changes to that coming) and each ability in the skills. I always welcome ideas, so just message me if you have ideas.

Idea for those who may lose their house. Use it in your RP, as a spite towards certain gods because they stole your house from you, destroying the history you held so dear. Tohran hates Lupus, even though he is traditionally considered a Nature god because he's lazy. You can hate gods that aren't directly opposed to you, and it can make for some very interesting interactions.

Herenicus

Silas said:

I do think it'd be a shame for Mhaldor to go to two Houses, unless they make the Houses into what the Orders were with Shaitollyon? That just seems weird, though, to have Houses focused on Suffering or Oppression.

There are three distinct playstyles catered for in Mhaldor's Housss currently (EF will forever just be Mhaldor's class leftovers sry), and there's easily the playerbase to support three Houses in Mhaldor if we have the players to support three in Targ.

Would be a real shame to see the Naga folded into one of the other Houses rather than expanded into a new spy House, imo.

We could go all the way to zero Houses!

Silas

If you want to keep it serpent only, a high clan might make sense, but if you're going to have an org anyway why not just make a new House out of it?

ETA:

Tohran said:

Idea for those who may lose their house. Use it in your RP, as a spite towards certain gods because they stole your house from you, destroying the history you held so dear. Tohran hates Lupus, even though he is traditionally considered a Nature god because he's lazy. You can hate gods that aren't directly opposed to you, and it can make for some very interesting interactions.

This is kind of the problem with the whole thing. There's no one god taking the House away, it's just an OOC decision being made by the game developers at the moment. There's nobody for your character to sensibly blame.

Iocun

Yeah. Even if it was just city patrons proclaiming a forced Renaissance, that would be a big help. I'd then have the choice between RPing resentment against that god, joining another city/trying to get the patron overthrown, or have my character come to the realisation that it was for the best after all and stay.

Such a thing would take almost no admin time, but make a real difference in how easy it is do deal with the change IC.

As it is, the whole issue is being handled OOC,while constantly creeping into IC situations in a rather uncomfortable way that leaves me with a feeling of helplessness of how to react.

Silas

I'd personally be against it being heaped on the Patrons, because cities should be working with rather than against their Patrons, and we don't want volunteers burning out because they're eternally fighting against the same dumb crap that saw Shallam sank.

Anonymous big bads like Bal'met and Slith are great tools for this precisely because it's so low risk.

Mishgul

blame me i like attention

Iocun

> @Silas said:
> I'd personally be against it being heaped on the Patrons, because cities should be working with rather than against their Patrons, and we don't want volunteers burning out because they're eternally fighting against the same dumb crap that saw Shallam sank.
>
>
> Anonymous big bads like Bal'met and Slith are great tools for this precisely because it's so low risk.

I agree with that. I merely mentioned rhe patron option because it's the easiest, but something external would certainly be preferrable.

Daklore

Mishgul said:

blame me i like attention

Preparing to blame @Mishgul. Loading blame sub-routine. 20%. 30%. 50%. 65%. 61%. Error. Unable to blame Mishgul. Exception handle: Gojirra.

Achimrst

Tohran said:

Achimrst said:

Tohran said:

I had an idea for a darkness based class that utilized scythes. I remember sending it to Snareman a long time ago. I never kept a copy for myself, or if I did it's been deleted as of a long time ago. I gave it over before I deployed in 2010.

ooo, a darkness class with scythes sounds neat. Too bad the admins are against new classes right now, I'm excited to see what is going to happen even if some people think it's going to be weird.

I don't have much to do today at work, I'll bring my notebook and start jotting down ideas again. While the admins aren't accepting new class ideas right now, it will take a lot of time for me to figure out all three class skills (no trade skill of course, with the changes to that coming) and each ability in the skills. I always welcome ideas, so just message me if you have ideas.

Idea for those who may lose their house. Use it in your RP, as a spite towards certain gods because they stole your house from you, destroying the history you held so dear. Tohran hates Lupus, even though he is traditionally considered a Nature god because he's lazy. You can hate gods that aren't directly opposed to you, and it can make for some very interesting interactions.

Fun, you will probably be better off jotting down idea replacements for Shaman runelore. Giving the city that class and taking it away from the people who actually like playing it is the option I see that would bring Darkness a factional class to support it. They will probably make it OP for a while so combat OP whores will run to it and develop it and than bring that city some members. :P

Arador

Well Mhaldor also plans to use Houses differently than they currently are. Fewer Houses make sense when you see the entire proposal, so while I understand the confusion and trepidations, it forms part of a larger idea which is actually incredibly elegant and suited to Mhaldor. It focuses on sharing resources, cutting away redundancy and does still allow for all the various play styles. As for details, those should be discussed more with the rest of the city, but that will still happen in time, this is just the starting phase of the planning. So while I understand the points and observations raised here, Mhaldor's application of Houses will be vastly different from the other cities. Stay tuned.

Jacen

Cannot agree with Silas enough. Admin stated that one purpose of this was to tie Houses closer to their city, not create more intracity conflict.

Gawi

So Merchants will remain mostly as-is, but in reference to the city novicehood program, how will that affect city-less houses? How will we get our new members?

Asmodron

> @Jarrod said:
>
> Asmodron said:
>
>
> The 'profession' and study of the occult was always spread out to wherever it could If there was no prejudice against them.
>
>
>
> This specifically is wrong. It was always kept within the Guild/House wherever possible, it was others who 'stole' the secrets and took them to other cities. There's a reason that an outcast Occultist exists who breaks your ties to the Occultists, and it's not because they want to spread around wherever they can.

_________

Incorrect.

You're speaking from the player controlled perspective and completely ignoring the lore and role-playing (common in Achaea I'm sad to say).

As I said in my post, historically, the study into the occult was a practice seen everywhere spread over the land in small 'cabals'. Upon the predejuice of the church and the light, in an attempt to bolster themselves, many of the cabals joined together into one force known as the occultist guild we still see today. (this is canon, for those confused and assuming players did all this).

The concept of 'stole our skills' is a completely player manufacturered one bolstered by a certain rather toxic player mindset that I'm glad has been expunged from the game.

Lore-wise, there is absolutely nothing wrong with Occultists in Hashan or anywhere else frankly that accepts them.

Gawi

Ainia said:

Gawi said:

So Merchants will remain mostly as-is, but in reference to the city novicehood program, how will that affect city-less houses? How will we get our new members?

Certimene will still be available for class changes, and for inducting to the cityless houses, if I recall correctly.

Yes but will it mean many less youngins? So say I were to create a new character, and choose a city, go through the program, get to the point of choosing a house, will I get to choose any house or just the houses in the city I am in?

Jarrod

Asmodron said:

> @Jarrod said:
>
> Asmodron said:
>
>
> The 'profession' and study of the occult was always spread out to wherever it could If there was no prejudice against them.
>
>
>
> This specifically is wrong. It was always kept within the Guild/House wherever possible, it was others who 'stole' the secrets and took them to other cities. There's a reason that an outcast Occultist exists who breaks your ties to the Occultists, and it's not because they want to spread around wherever they can.

_________

Incorrect.

You're speaking from the player controlled perspective and completely ignoring the lore and role-playing (common in Achaea I'm sad to say).

As I said in my post, historically, the study into the occult was a practice seen everywhere spread over the land in small 'cabals'. Upon the predejuice of the church and the light, in an attempt to bolster themselves, many of the cabals joined together into one force known as the occultist guild we still see today. (this is canon, for those confused and assuming players did all this).

The concept of 'stole our skills' is a completely player manufacturered one bolstered by a certain rather toxic player mindset that I'm glad has been expunged from the game.

Lore-wise, there is absolutely nothing wrong with Occultists in Hashan or anywhere else frankly that accepts them.

Yes, which led to the Burning Times which led to what it became, the Occultist Guild. Spreading it to Hashan is -not- in keeping with the contiguous RP of the class. Things changed.

Tecton

Gawi said:

Ainia said:

Gawi said:

So Merchants will remain mostly as-is, but in reference to the city novicehood program, how will that affect city-less houses? How will we get our new members?

Certimene will still be available for class changes, and for inducting to the cityless houses, if I recall correctly.

Yes but will it mean many less youngins? So say I were to create a new character, and choose a city, go through the program, get to the point of choosing a house, will I get to choose any house or just the houses in the city I am in?

Those that don't pick a city will get the informed of the independent houses as options

Kresslack

Silas said:

If you want to keep it serpent only, a high clan might make sense, but if you're going to have an org anyway why not just make a new House out of it?

ETA:

Tohran said:

Idea for those who may lose their house. Use it in your RP, as a spite towards certain gods because they stole your house from you, destroying the history you held so dear. Tohran hates Lupus, even though he is traditionally considered a Nature god because he's lazy. You can hate gods that aren't directly opposed to you, and it can make for some very interesting interactions.

This is kind of the problem with the whole thing. There's no one god taking the House away, it's just an OOC decision being made by the game developers at the moment. There's nobody for your character to sensibly blame.

Do what I do. Blame @Hasar. In fact, go send Hasar all of your hatemail right now. Flood him with letters seething and overflowing with rage and anger and threats on his unattended animals.