Quick Questions

Jules

Is that the admin answer (I'm guessing it is, because you're likely one of those who would be privy to such things)?  I understand the sentiment, but I doubt we're capable of not ruining it.  It's just the nature of the beast, here.  If I'm a financially well-off player with an eye to make friends, and move up in my orgs, and there are no serious downsides to providing my trade skill free to others, it's a no-brainer.  Doing *just* that isn't going to mean advancement, but it makes absolute sense as part of an overall approach, and that is always going to be harmful to the actual market (because in Achaea enough of us are artificially "rich" to matter).  

Jules

I'm not trying to run Achaea as some sort of charity, but Achaea does have sort of a unique game economy, and having more people who are trying (and succeeding) at making some actual gold tend to make for better and more consistent service availability than my fellow credit whore who is doing it "to be nice".  

Shirszae

@Jules I don't really think anything can be done to prevent it, alas. Even if something was introduced, people will eventually crash it to the floor anyway, like they did with mineral prices from transmutation.

Mazoth

Not been around very long, so I'm not quite understanding the issue (read comprehension, not disagreement).  Is pricing for trade skill services too low?

Cooper

By a lot. There is always that person who is willing to sell something cheaper or do it for free.

Blujixapug

Jules said:

So, when they release trade skills, is there anything in place to help make sure they are protected as actual, viable *trade* skills for the portion of the player base that needs to get an actual return from such skills?  This is not me, and it's very likely that I will happily learn none of them, but people like me are the problem, when it comes to this.  Instead of trading for gold or credits, otherwise well-off players tend to trade their skills for good will, or to outright curry favour.  To be fair, these "favours" tend to become taken for granted/expected of all who are capable of performing them in any case.  Is there going to be something in place (perhaps inherent to performing the skill) to discourage players from learning these skills and then providing services for free/at minimum charge?  Of course I still want to see forgers making shortswords for newbies, etc... but everyone else should be paying up, and the right in-game social dynamic needs to be fostered to nip "freebies" in the bud.  

This is not a quick question. It invites discussion about complex issues like the game's economy, and what drives player behaviour. I suggest you create a new thread to discuss it.

Jules

You're right.  I asked it here because I figured someone dialed in would know the short answer (which seems to be a pretty firm no, unfortunately).  If you or anyone else agree that this is something that needs to be dealt with and think you can gain traction with the right people, by all means, start a discussion.  Some of you are in a far better position to do so than I am.  

Trevize

Jules said:

Is that the admin answer (I'm guessing it is, because you're likely one of those who would be privy to such things)?

No, just my personal opinion. Not sure why you'd think I would know something like that?

edit: Don't let my post stop you from discussing it! You stated an opinion, I stated one, a few others did... if you feel strongly (and others do) it might turn into an interesting discussion!

Shirszae

Trevize said:

Jules said:

Is that the admin answer (I'm guessing it is, because you're likely one of those who would be privy to such things)?

No, just my personal opinion. Not sure why you'd think I would know something like that?

Probably thought you had read it in a thread or something here in the forums. Anyway, I do think it would be an interesting subject to discuss, so someone start a thread already!

Caladbolg

What are good stats for a ringmail? And what would the top stat for ringmail be.

Currently im using a 35/44

Trevize

Caladbolg said:

What are good stats for a ringmail? And what would the top stat for ringmail be.

Currently im using a 35/44

I had someone forge an ungodly number and came out with a 45/44. Was amazing for bashing.

Jules

Trevize said:

Jules said:

Is that the admin answer (I'm guessing it is, because you're likely one of those who would be privy to such things)?

No, just my personal opinion. Not sure why you'd think I would know something like that?

edit: Don't let my post stop you from discussing it! You stated an opinion, I stated one, a few others did... if you feel strongly (and others do) it might turn into an interesting discussion!

Hmm, I totally misremembered what you wrote, even though it was obviously still there at the top... and I thought you'd have inside knowledge because you're Trevize :P  I'll start a thread if someone hasn't got to it already.  

Trevize

Jules said:

Trevize said:

Jules said:

Is that the admin answer (I'm guessing it is, because you're likely one of those who would be privy to such things)?

No, just my personal opinion. Not sure why you'd think I would know something like that?

edit: Don't let my post stop you from discussing it! You stated an opinion, I stated one, a few others did... if you feel strongly (and others do) it might turn into an interesting discussion!

Hmm, I totally misremembered what you wrote, even though it was obviously still there at the top... and I thought you'd have inside knowledge because you're Trevize :P  I'll start a thread if someone hasn't got to it already.  

:-/ Is there something someone is not telling me?

Jules

You're not part of ACC, Leaders, and such?

Trevize

Jules said:

You're not part of ACC, Leaders, and such?

Nothing anywhere remotely similar.

I am one of Sarapis' alts, but that doesn't tell you much, since that includes everyone in Achaea but you,

Blujixapug

Jules said:

You're right.  I asked it here because I figured someone dialed in would know the short answer (which seems to be a pretty firm no, unfortunately).  If you or anyone else agree that this is something that needs to be dealt with and think you can gain traction with the right people, by all means, start a discussion.  Some of you are in a far better position to do so than I am.  

Just make a thread, it's easy.

YOU ALREADY DID, EGG ON MY FACE

Xith

"If you're good at something, never do it for free."

-- The Joker

For instance, if you are one of few people who can make bombs or forge or do refills or enchantments, or pretty much anything that the person asking you can't do... you should charge something.

A lot of people do tattoos for newbies for "inks, please". i.e. just the cost of the goods required to render the service. I ask for inks plus 100 gold. Not a huge fee but it's something. Same with runes, I pay my runist 50 gold for the basic runes and 100 per gebu/laguz/etc. in addition to the inks.

Kyrra

@Jules, I do pretty much everything for free except forging because I don't forge for anyone for anything. The majority of my CFs have been for totem work and being willing to provide runes for free (and I rune anyone that stands still long enough), and plenty of people are appreciative that they suggest CFs to say thank you. That's Ashtan though and it's pretty pointless for Cyrene. You can bust your ass for that city and you won't go anywhere unless you're a favourite with the Senate.

Honestly I don't think trade skills matter that much. If you put in the work consistently and people are happy with the services that you provide, it should be enough. With the 650 games coming up, it's a really good opportunity for those with trade skills to offer a lot to their supports to contribute and be supportive. And even forging has a purpose with providing tanks to the army. Or the army of other cities. Just don't treat things as a chore or act like it's putting you out, have a positive attitude and you'll get far in pretty much any organisation. People that show initiative and do the work go far.

Jules

Kyrra, cute as you are, you're sort of illustrating my point, in that there is *absolutely* an exchange of sorts going on in the instances you and I are speaking of (or at least the hope of such an exchange), but it's not a monetary one.  In the cases where people actively seek to provide free services, they are in almost all cases trying to create good will towards themselves, and perhaps yes, receive formal favors.  I'm not all that fond of this sort of "economy of goodwill" for services (and some products) that you'd like to be readily available just about anytime you might log in.  If people know they can make reliable profits from selling their skills, a larger pool of players is going to be much, much more willing to offer them up regularly.  The "economy of goodwill" has a chilling effect on that.

Jules

p.s. I doubt runes would ever be affected by any changes to favor paid services, even if by some miracle changes do happen someday.  

Jules

p.s.p.s. By all accounts you're right about Cyrene's intractable political issues. I remember a wonderful real life couple who found it maddening. The wife did eventually become imperiate though. I've never heard anything good and being a citizen has suited my needs best in any case. I did get a bit concerned about a year ago when some higher ranking people were sort of throwing their weight around Mhaldor style, but that seems to have softened. The live and let live attitude in Cyrene is what makes being low ranked a pretty fine life (and a great positive of the city). Advancement is an understandable and valid goal though, and one Cyrene apparently sucks at being reasonable about.

Shirszae

Jules said:

 Cyrene sucks at being reasonable. Full stop.

fixed

Kyrra

I choose not to be paid. Doesn't stop people giving me inks on occasion and throwing gold at me.

If I was a magi or alchemist though, I'd consider the time spent on gathering materials to be valuable and would want compensation for that.

I'm just not fussed about making money so I guess it doesn't bother me that much. I don't actively seek to undercut the market in any form, and it's not like I hold a monopoly on a few abilities just because I don't charge. There's plenty of folk around still making gold off the exact same things that I offer to do for free. People are still able to make that choice who they want services off.

And for what it's worth, ask @Vayne how often I pay 100k for refills. 

Vayne

Kyrra said:

I choose not to be paid. Doesn't stop people giving me inks on occasion and throwing gold at me.

If I was a magi or alchemist though, I'd consider the time spent on gathering materials to be valuable and would want compensation for that.

I'm just not fussed about making money so I guess it doesn't bother me that much. I don't actively seek to undercut the market in any form, and it's not like I hold a monopoly on a few abilities just because I don't charge. There's plenty of folk around still making gold off the exact same things that I offer to do for free. People are still able to make that choice who they want services off.

And for what it's worth, ask @Vayne how often I pay 100k for refills. 

Not often enough!

Kyrra

Jules said:

p.s.p.s. By all accounts you're right about Cyrene's intractable political issues. I remember a wonderful real life couple who found it maddening. The wife did eventually become imperiate though. I've never heard anything good and being a citizen has suited my needs best in any case. I did get a bit concerned about a year ago when some higher ranking people were sort of throwing their weight around Mhaldor style, but that seems to have softened. The live and let live attitude in Cyrene is what makes being low ranked a pretty fine life (and a great positive of the city). Advancement is an understandable and valid goal though, and one Cyrene apparently sucks at being reasonable about.

That's what eventually led to my leaving. I need to have goals to work toward and have those goals actually be attainable within a reasonable amount of time. Advancement is progress to me and I found the don't bother attitude of the city at the time to be really depressing. I'd probably have gone back to dormancy for another 5 years if I had stayed. I've no qualms about the city itself, it's lovely. I just don't agree with holding people back from naturally progressing because of elitism which I think is part of the problem there.

Penwize

Kyrra said:

That's what eventually led to my leaving. I need to have goals to work toward and have those goals actually be attainable within a reasonable amount of time. Advancement is progress to me and I found the don't bother attitude of the city at the time to be really depressing. I'd probably have gone back to dormancy for another 5 years if I had stayed. I've no qualms about the city itself, it's lovely. I just don't agree with holding people back from naturally progressing because of elitism which I think is part of the problem there.

You should try bashing.  There's always a goal that's actually attainable in a reasonable amount of time!

...for um, varying interpretations of the word "reasonable."

Kyrra

You know when I hunt @Penwize, I always check if you're awake and then I ramble at you until something shiny distracts me. Sadly it's one of those things I need to be in the mood for.

Xith

I'm never in the mood for hunting.

I tell it I have a headache and then roll over and turn off the lamp.

Nim

Kyrra said:

You know when I hunt @Penwize

I wish I could hunt @Penwize.

Penwize

Nim said:

Kyrra said:

You know when I hunt @Penwize

I wish I could hunt @Penwize.

You'd have to ask my wife but I'm sure we could arrange something....