Quick Questions

Amranu

Armali said:

I hear even aliases count as automation these days.

Even typing in commands is automation really. You push a switch which sends an electric signal through a cable to a port on your computer, where it eventually ends up being automatically processed by your operating system as a specific character which is then displayed on the screen automatically where your cursor is.

That's way too op.

Adeleine

Amranu said:

Armali said:

I hear even aliases count as automation these days.

Even typing in commands is automation really. You push a switch which sends an electric signal through a cable to a port on your computer, where it eventually ends up being automatically processed by your operating system as a specific character which is then displayed on the screen automatically where your cursor is.

That's way too op.

You know, doing anything is automation, really. You're just a brain, you're sending commands to your muscles through your nerves which automatically do things for you. And don't even get me started on the autonomic nervous system.

Amranu

Adeleine said:

You know, doing anything is automation, really. You're just a brain, you're sending commands to your muscles through your nerves which automatically do things for you. And don't even get me started on the autonomic nervous system.

I mean that's only true if you assume materialism. Otherwise you gotta deal with the mind-body problem before you can get to that level of automation. And that requires some kind of automation to communicate between mind and brain. Automation all the way down.

Exelethril

ಠ_ಠ      

Bann

My body and mind are automated too. All those nerve signals doing their things. All those functions in the brain that happen without my input. My body also acts by itself sometimes because reflexes.

Armali

Would you say you have no free agency and are a slave to chemical processes started long before your birth, that everything you do is pre-ordained, whether by aforementioned chemical processes or some ephemeral higher power?

Sena

@Vessil Accentato against denizens was changed to scale with jab damage (a simple 25% of whatever damage the jab did) in the huge bashing overhaul in July 2014. It was explicitly announced as such, so there's no doubt that it was intended. There also haven't been any announced changes to accentato since then, so I'd expect it to still be 25% of jab damage (and the numbers you posted, with accentato adding 15% with and without +2 str, aren't necessarily inconsistent with a 25% damage boost).

Bann

Armali said:

Would you say you have no free agency and are a slave to chemical processes started long before your birth, that everything you do is pre-ordained, whether by aforementioned chemical processes or some ephemeral higher power?

My free will is a lie.

Adeleine

Armali said:

Would you say you have no free agency and are a slave to chemical processes started long before your birth, that everything you do is pre-ordained, whether by aforementioned chemical processes or some ephemeral higher power?

The universe is automated! Every effect is a direct result of a cause, going all the way back to the Big Bang. Nothing is random, even our conscious choices to 'do something random' are just a result of our brain's chemical and electrical processes that have been in motion since were were conceived. Everything is a pre-determined causality chain from the beginning of time until entropy reduces everything to a valueless nullity.

Makarios

I'll note that we did revamp weapon bashing damage since July 2014, as we felt some changes were necessary. That may have resulted in the accentato calculation being a bit strange; probably something that needs looking at. I'll add it to the list, though obviously it won't be straight away, as we're a bit occupied with event stuff currently.

That said, I don't see any compelling reason why collars shouldn't modify it.

Adeleine

Makarios said:

I'll note that we did revamp weapon bashing damage since July 2014, as we felt some changes were necessary. That may have resulted in the accentato calculation being a bit strange; probably something that needs looking at. I'll add it to the list, though obviously it won't be straight away, as we're a bit occupied with event stuff currently.

That said, I don't see any compelling reason why collars shouldn't modify it.

Can you also take a look at jera/fury strength bonuses seemingly not affecting DSL damage?

Bann

Jera only gives you +1 str, which may or may not be noticeable as we only get a percentage report on mob health, rather than a raw number. At least so far as I know.

Adeleine

Bann said:

Jera only gives you +1 str, which may or may not be noticeable as we only get a percentage report on mob health, rather than a raw number. At least so far as I know.

Well, like I said, I've tested it on mobs of various health, and with fury, which is an additional +2 strength.

Halstad

Does Achaea not do a HAPPYBIRTHDAY on your real life birth date? Lusternia and Imperian do for sure - I always assumed it originated with Achaea.

Vessil

@Makarios Awesome to hear that. While you're digging in there, there appears to be something funky with the damage calc on Jab anyway. I found a 1/1/1 rapier and my Jab is jumping from 3%(with smithed and L1) to 11% when I use it. Not really something you can abuse, since the jab speed drops from 1.8s-2s jab to 6s jab and the 1 to-hit makes it very hard to hit with. This could potentially be causing artefact rapiers NOT to do increased damage.

As a comparison, I hit a normal Rat with four rapiers, 1-dmg, 36-dmg, 51-dmg(standard), and 57-dmg(L1 rapier). The 51 and 57 dmg rapiers did 68% to the rat. The 36 dmg did 66% to the rat. And the 1 dmg was one-shotting it.

(See why I was asking about a CONFIG MOBDAMAGE ON option? You could even default it to OFF so the immersion-breaking numbers are opt-in. Just sayin  )

Szanthax

How are 1/1/1 rapiers a thing?

Sena

Vessil said:

(See why I was asking about a CONFIG MOBDAMAGE ON option? You could even default it to OFF so the immersion-breaking numbers are opt-in. Just sayin  )

We did have an opt-in way of seeing how much damage attacks did to denizens (knights could see exact numbers for falcon health, and apostates could see their baalzadeen's, so you could use them for testing your attacks), but it was recently removed because they didn't want players having access to such specific numbers.

Szanthax

Sena said:

Vessil said:

(See why I was asking about a CONFIG MOBDAMAGE ON option? You could even default it to OFF so the immersion-breaking numbers are opt-in. Just sayin  )

We did have an opt-in way of seeing how much damage attacks did to denizens (knights could see exact numbers for falcon health, and apostates could see their baalzadeen's, so you could use them for testing your attacks), but it was recently removed because they didn't want players having access to such specific numbers.

The only benefit I'd see in this type of thing is in weird stuff... Like what he was pointing out. Imagine a world of 1/1/1 bards...

Vessil

Szanthax said:

Sena said:

Vessil said:

stuff

stuff

The only benefit I'd see in this type of thing is in weird stuff... Like what he was pointing out. Imagine a world of 1/1/1 bards...

There's also the benefit of not being limited to extremely low precision information all the time? Sure, some people might like to take it on faith that their $100 new L1 rapier is actually helping them bash. For me, being able to verify "Yes, my L1 Rapier is increasing my bashing attack by a whole 5%!" rather than being stuck with "Even hitting the smallest mob I can hit without one-shotting(that rat I mentioned earlier), I can't see a difference in % damage done, so I can't even confirm that it IS increasing JAB damage against mobs..."

I mean, I get it. Most people don't care about numbers or quantifying stuff or comparing stuff in any real detail, and some people lose immersion when they're presented with numbers(although, you deal with specific numbers without complaint all the time(hp, mp, bleed, xp, lessons)). Those things have relevance to having opt-in access to numbers for people that actually really enjoy having those things exposed instead of being given vague information everywhere. Me being able to calculate how much my L1 rapier boosts my hunting DPS(I can already calculate this for PVP) will have 0 impact on your ability to enjoy the game.

Edit: Also, no clue why 1/1/1 rapier exists. I found it in Delos along with a very sub-par one so I could determine just how much of an impact the weapon's stats had on stuff.

Armali

I know in Aetolia, there's an inverse relationship between speed and damage, where as your speed reduces, assuming your damage stat stays constant, your actual damage will actually go UP, and vice versa. It's very odd, and I wonder if it's occurring here, or if there's just some random edge case.

Question of my own: how long does this clown buff last?

Nazihk

Vessil said:

I mean, I get it. Most people don't care about numbers or quantifying stuff or comparing stuff in any real detail, and some people lose immersion when they're presented with numbers(although, you deal with specific numbers without complaint all the time(hp, mp, bleed, xp, lessons)). Those things have relevance to having opt-in access to numbers for people that actually really enjoy having those things exposed instead of being given vague information everywhere. Me being able to calculate how much my L1 rapier boosts my hunting DPS(I can already calculate this for PVP) will have 0 impact on your ability to enjoy the game.

After seeing the effects of the exact numbers in Imperian and Aetolia, I kind of have to go with Achaea's approach here. I've seen lots of people in Imp get responses to "Who's the best bashing class?" like "Well, Bard does 46.4 dps and Runewarden does 44.8 dps and Monk does 43.9 dps" and then they feel compelled to go Bard because Bard is 'so much better at bashing' despite the fact that Bard's advantage is so small that they'd never actually feel it in the game.

Exact numbers change how people think about things in ways that aren't always good for the game. This is, imo, one of those times.

Aerek

Kinda like how Makarios let slip that there was an exponential effect on relinquishing multiple shards rather than cumulative, and instantly changed the course of the world event.

Nazihk

Aerek said:

Kinda like how Makarios let slip that there was an exponential effect on relinquishing multiple shards rather than cumulative, and instantly changed the course of the world event.

Yeah, exactly.

People went "Wait, the boring crappy unfun sucky way that nobody likes is optimal? WE HAVE TO DO IT!"

Deladan

so which of these orders is gonna take me bashing later?  

Nazihk

Babel's Order will be happy to bash you.

Ahmet

Anyone used their clown yet? Know how much the boost is?

Adeleine

Nazihk said:

After seeing the effects of the exact numbers in Imperian and Aetolia, I kind of have to go with Achaea's approach here. I've seen lots of people in Imp get responses to "Who's the best bashing class?" like "Well, Bard does 46.4 dps and Runewarden does 44.8 dps and Monk does 43.9 dps" and then they feel compelled to go Bard because Bard is 'so much better at bashing' despite the fact that Bard's advantage is so small that they'd never actually feel it in the game.

Exact numbers change how people think about things in ways that aren't always good for the game. This is, imo, one of those times.

Some of us (who aren't idiots that absolutely have to choose what is "the best") like the numbers game. I personally choose what I want to play based on what I think best fits my character, but at the same time I love having as much access to numerical and behind-the-scenes information as possible. (Like GMCP. I'm married to GMCP.) I don't think it breaks my immersion at all!

Anedhel

Some people might prefer it, but Achaea's admins have always been pretty clear about the fact that they have no intention of disseminating every formula, standardising every aspect of combat, or, in general, turning Achaea into a math equation (which I personally really, really like). 

Vender

i'm not a numbers type of person myself but i do think when it comes to spending money (which can be significant investments) on artefacts, being able to evaluate the benefit you will receive is important.

the solution i think for this is to send an email to artefacts @ achaea and say you're interested in purchasing so and so artefact but would like to know a little bit more information on it before you make your final decision.

then the sales representative can handle each prospective customer and sale on a case by case basis and in the end, the customer can be happy, the producers can be happy and the rest of the playerbase can be keep being happy not having to worry about numbers if they don't want to.

Anedhel

They do let you test artefacts out before you buy them, afaik, for the record!