Quick Questions

Zahan

If anyone can present evidence why me seeing (or me having the option of seeing) my rapier jab do "600" instead of "6%" somehow affects how you play them game, please do so.  I'd love to see the other side of the coin.  

Currently I'm just baffled by this argument that how I look at achaea affects other people in such a way that it's seen fit to remove options many of us have been enjoying for the better part of 2 decades.

Viho

www.aetolia.com

/s

Vessil

Is there any RNG to the bal times on various things(Jab in particular(it doesn't even have an AB for me to verify the base bal on))? Even with ping times to Achaea being consistently 40-60ms, I'm seeing bal times ranging from like, 1.5 to 2s.

Armali

There's some variance in balance calculations. For example, for alchemists, the way temper balance aligns with single-aff wrack (they both are roughly the same speed) means that on occasion, you'll regain temper balance AFTER you regain normal balance, while the majority of the time you'll regain temper balance BEFORE you regain normal balance.

Atalkez

Hiding facets of information creates ambiguity for a lot of things.

Hunting does not need to boil down to X class offers 2.5% more DPS while offering a 10% increase in defense over class Y.

If you can't understand why that is the case, not really sure anyone will be able to make it more understandable for you.

Zahan

Atalkez said:

Hiding facets of information creates ambiguity for a lot of things.

Hunting does not need to boil down to X class offers 2.5% more DPS while offering a 10% increase in defense over class Y.

If you can't understand why that is the case, not really sure anyone will be able to make it more understandable for you.

This argument seems incredibly invalid to me.  Sena can just as easily go attack the same orc and get the percentage instead of the number, and crunch out dps-meters for everyone.  It'll just be based on the percent relative to other classes, instead of based on numbers of hp from the mob, but just as accurate.

edit:typo

Vessil

Armali said:

There's some variance in balance calculations. For example, for alchemists, the way temper balance aligns with single-aff wrack (they both are roughly the same speed) means that on occasion, you'll regain temper balance AFTER you regain normal balance, while the majority of the time you'll regain temper balance BEFORE you regain normal balance.

Eww.

Makarios

There's not variation in balance or equilibrium - temper is just on a different system so sometimes gets out of synch.

Armali

Well you should fix it because it gets really annoying (pretty please with a cherry on top)

Sena

Vessil said:

Is there any RNG to the bal times on various things(Jab in particular(it doesn't even have an AB for me to verify the base bal on))? Even with ping times to Achaea being consistently 40-60ms, I'm seeing bal times ranging from like, 1.5 to 2s.

There does seem to be some randomness in certain cases, but only a difference of 0.1s. For example, the raw balance times used by the game (not what you see on your end) might, without any variables/circumstances changing, be randomly either 1.6s or 1.7s. I'd guess that happens in cases where the balance is between tenths of a second, like 1.65s being randomly either 1.6 or 1.7, but that's just a guess and I don't have any way of confirming it.

Usually, any variation you see is because of lag (possibly on the game's end, but primarily from your connection to the game) and the fact that balance recovery happens on a periodic tick so your recovery can be delayed by up to however long the tick is (seems to be 0.1s).

It is possible that certain abilities are explicitly set to have random balance times, but I can't think of any. And there have been bugs that changed balance recovery unpredictably too.

Trey

@Zahan



EDIT: Oh god I linked this before I remembered her last name is Salt.

Atalkez

Highly doubt it would be accurate across all classes doing it that way.

We were getting super accurate DPS numbers using a method that is no longer available. If it was still as simple to get it, we would see more discussion about them after tweaks that have happened, but we haven't.

Makarios

Armali said:

Well you should fix it because it gets really annoying (pretty please with a cherry on top)

I thought we did already! Will have to take another look.

Zahan

@trey Hahaha!  Nice!  (rip Gene)

Honestly though, I don't crunch up numbers quite like Sena.  In fact, just recently, I turned my health from a number into a percentage because I have so damn much and I thought it'd be fun to have a different view of it for a while.  

I probably did jump up a little fast, for something that I do like but don't always use, but my bullshit meter was going through the roof.  It still doesn't make sense - to take away something people have grown accustomed to for many years (which is unlike the golden egg you referenced) - and linking that video sure didn't do anything to help.  For some people, crunching numbers is the driving reason they play this game and contribute to it.

Sena

Atalkez said:

Highly doubt it would be accurate across all classes doing it that way.

We were getting super accurate DPS numbers using a method that is no longer available. If it was still as simple to get it, we would see more discussion about them after tweaks that have happened, but we haven't.

It's not impossible to get near-perfect damage comparisons now, it just takes more than ten times the effort, and it was already quite a bit of work even with falcons. On the other hand, lucrescent nuts mean you don't have to track down 3 or 4 people of each class with the right stats, so that helps a lot to counteract the increased difficulty from the falcon change. On the other other hand, there have been pretty frequent bashing changes over the last couple years, so numbers get outdated much more quickly than they used to.

If I had the time (I've been working 7 days a week lately, idling for an hour to spin the wheel is almost all I can manage most days), I would probably have updated DPS stats by now.

Vessil

@Makarios said:

There's not variation in balance or equilibrium - temper is just on a different system so sometimes gets out of synch.

Using custom prompt with server time enabled...

Lightning-quick, you jab Vender with a blackened rapier.

The songblessing upon the rapier sings out with a piercing high note.

02:18:13.20 <4732H100 () 3916M91 () <ckdb e V - O> 0r [vender]()-(-11) 87 (74%) [DF]

You have recovered balance on all limbs. Bal: 1.89

02:18:15.08 <4732H100 () 3891M91 () <ckdb ex V - O> 0r [vender]()-87 (74%) [DF]jab vender

You viciously jab a blackened rapier into Vender.

The songblessing upon the rapier sings out with a piercing high note.

02:18:16.19 <4732H100 () 3891M91 () <ckdb e V - O> 0r [vender]()-(-11) 87 (74%) [DF]

You have recovered balance on all limbs. Bal: 2.05

02:18:18.25 <4732H100 () 3876M91 (-15m) <ckdb ex V - O> 0r [vender]()-(+11) 87 (74%) [DF]

Lightning-quick, you jab Vender with a blackened rapier.

The songblessing upon the rapier sings out with a piercing high note.

02:18:20.16 <4732H100 () 3876M91 () <ckdb e V - O> 0r [vender]()-(-11) 87 (74%) [DF]

You have recovered balance on all limbs. Bal: 2.01

02:18:22.19 <4732H100 () 3861M90 (-15m) <ckdb ex V - O> 0r [vender]()-(+11) 87 (74%) [DF]

15.08-13.20 = 1.88s
18.25-16.19 = 2.06s
22.19-20.16 = 2.03s

Is there variation, is server time tag in prompt wildly inaccurate, or is there some third possibility I'm unaware of?

Makarios

Hmm. That is strange, might be an issue with the server timestamp. Will do some digging.

Jonathin

If money is not an issue, buying them of of other players is definitely the easiest

Adeleine

Atalkez said:

Hiding facets of information creates ambiguity for a lot of things.

Hunting does not need to boil down to X class offers 2.5% more DPS while offering a 10% increase in defense over class Y.

If you can't understand why that is the case, not really sure anyone will be able to make it more understandable for you.

I don't see why everyone should be punished because some people are idiots. Let the dudes who think that a 2.5% DPS increase necessitates changing class do so, and let the intelligent folk have fun being allowed to know things about the class they enjoy playing.

Anedhel

I feel like a lot of the recent transplants from other games are really pushing to make Achaea work like whatever game they come from (which they're totally entitled to), and I don't really like it. 

I've always liked the 'feel' approach to combat in Achaea. Do I need to know that hellsight with a diadem is 2.435s versus 2.8500 without? No, probably not. What I need to know is that with a diadem, I can get away with cheesing someone with damnation, and without it, I can't. Similarly, I don't really need to know the percentage of damage my hews in 2h do, I just need to know that it's worth picking up an artefact to really kick butt against an annoying class. 

I get the drive to have numbers that are super, super specific, I really do. However, one of the things that's always been really great about this game is that you don't have to memorise a bunch of numbers and code accordingly to min-max the snot out of your character's reactions/efficiency; being able to compete just by feeling and reacting based on experience is what sets Achaea apart from basically any other MUD I've played, and I'd hate it if they changed that.

Adeleine

There are a lot of things we don't need or have to do, but we like them and we want them. If the game only let you do things you need to do, then it would be a very boring game indeed.

Anyway, you can opt out of seeing specific numbers, even in Achaea (try out CONFIG PROMPT TEXT,) so if you don't want to see them, you don't have to.

Viho

Anedhel said:

I feel like a lot of the recent transplants from other games are really pushing to make Achaea work like whatever game they come from (which they're totally entitled to), and I don't really like it. 

I've always liked the 'feel' approach to combat in Achaea. Do I need to know that hellsight with a diadem is 2.435s versus 2.8500 without? No, probably not. What I need to know is that with a diadem, I can get away with cheesing someone with damnation, and without it, I can't. Similarly, I don't really need to know the percentage of damage my hews in 2h do, I just need to know that it's worth picking up an artefact to really kick butt against an annoying class. 

I get the drive to have numbers that are super, super specific, I really do. However, one of the things that's always been really great about this game is that you don't have to memorise a bunch of numbers and code accordingly to min-max the snot out of your character's reactions/efficiency; being able to compete just by feeling and reacting based on experience is what sets Achaea apart from basically any other MUD I've played, and I'd hate it if they changed that.

I totally agree and understand the first part. Someone wanted to remove things in Aetolia once because Lusternia and Imperian had done it and I lost my shit. Achaea is its own game and I, personally, like the differences.

But because I love a good argument/debate (and sometimes participating in them), I just have to chime in and say that this reasoning, which is the same reasoning a lot of native Achaeans use, just doesn't hold a lot of weight. If it's an opt in type deal, then you can totally just never turn the numbers on and it's the same as it always was for people. The information people are wanting isn't impossible to obtain, it's just obscure and requires a lot of effort. They're simply asking for it to be easier to get.

For the record, I personally don't care if Makarios has a change of heart and makes the information easier to get, or if he keeps things the way they are. I'm just genuinely curious to if there's a 'better', or different, reason the native players don't want this information more accessible.

Cynlael

Viho said:
The information people are wanting isn't impossible to obtain, it's just obscure and requires a lot of effort. 

Shy of being a coder for the game, there's no real way to get it anymore since they removed the only way there was to get it (that being hitting falcons / baalzadeens). Just like all those others games, your attacks do different damage to players than they do to mobs (and even to different mobs, sometimes).

Like he said though, you're entitled to have your opinion. If he found your argument compelling (which he obviously doesn't) then he might have a change of heart. If your reasoning for playing a game like this, is "Because I like crunching numbers," or anything similar to that, you really need to re-evaluate why you're playing it in the first place.

If you play it to bash, and want the best possible bashing class, you can already test that with the information that's available to you. You don't need any more than that.

Adeleine

Cynlael said:

If you play it to bash, and want the best possible bashing class, you can already test that with the information that's available to you. You don't need any more than that.

Like I just said a couple posts ago, there are a lot of things we don't need or have to do, but we like them and we want them. If the game only let you do things you need to do, then it would be a very boring game indeed.

Cynlael

And it's been made clear, numerous times in the past, that you're not getting them. Deal with it already. Or go back to whatever game you came from, that had it. Pretty simple.

Adeleine

Don't be a jerk.

Puxi

Cynlael said:

And it's been made clear, numerous times in the past, that you're not getting them. Deal with it already. Or go back to whatever game you came from, that had it. Pretty simple.

Adeleine

This isn't 1985 anymore where "Thou hast yon great strength" is how you measure your stats. The modern-day metagame is all about comparing numbers. I can guarantee you that literally nobody except prissy grognards who failed math class are going to care if the server tells you exact damage numbers and balance times.

Everyone has fun in different ways. Some people have fun playing the numbers game. Some people have fun gagging every numeric value on their screen and replacing it with "yea verily, thy loins froth with most excellent vitality." Let people do whichever one they want and stop trying to dictate how people should enjoy the game they pay to play.

Tahquil

@Adeleine:

I saw her today at the reception
A glass of wine in her hand
I knew she would meet her connection
At her feet was her footloose man

No, you can't always get what you want
You can't always get what you want
You can't always get what you want
But if you try sometime you find
You get what you need

We went down to the demonstration 
To get your fair share of abuse 
Singing, "We're gonna vent our frustration 
If we don't we're gonna blow a fifty-amp fuse" 

You can't always get what you want 
You can't always get what you want 
You can't always get what you want 
But if you try sometimes well you just might find 
You get what you need 

I went down to the Chelsea drugstore 
To get your prescription filled 
I was standing in line with Mr. Jimmy 
And man, did he look pretty ill 
We decided that we would have a soda 
My favorite flavor, cherry red 
I sung my song to Mr. Jimmy 
Yeah, and he said one word to me, and that was "dead" 
I said to him 

You can't always get what you want 
You can't always get what you want 
You can't always get what you want 
But if you try sometimes you just might find 
You get what you need 

You get what you need--yeah, oh baby 

I saw her today at the reception 
In her glass was a bleeding man 
She was practiced at the art of deception 
Well I could tell by her blood-stained hands 

You can't always get what you want 
You can't always get what you want 
You can't always get what you want 
But if you try sometimes you just might find 
You just might find 
You get what you need 

Tahquil

Adeleine said:

I can guarantee you that literally nobody except prissy grognards who failed math class are going to care if the server tells you exact damage numbers and balance times.

@Makarios cares. Are you going to take that abuse Big Daddy Mak or are you to busy trying to count on your fingers and toes the current playerbase numbers?

Edit: You know what would be cool. During this event a thing that makes everyone's base stats fluctuate randomly, just to mess with the metagamers.