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  • Aerek said:
    The hell? 2000 sips, 4.5 seconds per sip, that's 2.5 hours of non-stop hunting. I don't know how people stomach hunting for that long, let alone longer.
    That sounds like me. I don't know how many times I hunted out my health can completely surviving on potash. One thing I can't survive, Cain's choke, I didn't notice I run out of health whole fighting him. 

    Yesterday I ran through like 3-4k sips. Refilled my rift twice. Burned potash like mad too. 
  • I would go through 20 health vials and full rift of health before coming back to the mainland to rest when I was bashing to Dragon.

    Not only did I hate it, but now I can no longer listen to Dej Loaf, Buckethead or The Killers without remembering it and feeling my real life soul sapped of energy.
  • SzanthaxSzanthax San Diego
    Atalkez said:
    Being artied myself and watching Seragorn and Jhui hunt I've questioned if there is a cap at all.
    Lvl 3 critical, lucky sips, and level 103. Went crit crazy yesterday with @Halos



  • (serious) Two-part question of curiosity;
     a) Where the hell do you guys bash?
     b) What is your potash/health percentages set at?
    :|

    (when I can get them all, early in the morning)
    I clear Dun Fortress, Tir, Moghedu, Tsol'aa and Tenwat, and don't even burn through 600 health sips / 250 potash, and I don't even have arties. Takes maybe ~90min to get through that. I usually do all of that, play a game of LoL or something while my endurance regens, then start over.

  • Atalkez said:
    Being artied myself and watching Seragorn and Jhui hunt I've questioned if there is a cap at all.
    If there were no cap anyone level 125 or over (so at least Penwize) would have 100% crits without bonuses.
  • Ryzeth said:
    (serious) Two-part question of curiosity;
     a) Where the hell do you guys bash?
     b) What is your potash/health percentages set at?
    a) Lots of places, more or less non-stop. It would take a Great Hunt to run me out of endurance and willpower, so I can go for quite a while. The Fissure of Echoes is the big one, but I have to take turns in it with Penwize now that he's back.
    b) 80% health and 70% moss, from memory.

    And yeah, I plow through health like there's no tomorrow. Mending and caloric (Fissure) too, less so epidermal. I'm usually refilling my rift somewhere from daily to every couple of days. Poor Yae gets messages from me whenever I run her shop out of something.
    - (Eleusis): Ellodin says, "The Fissure of Echoes is Sarathai's happy place."
    - With sharp, crackling tones, Kyrra tells you, "The ladies must love you immensely."
    - (Eleusian Ranger Techs): Savira says, "Most of the hard stuff seem to have this built in code like: If adventurer_hitting_me = "Sarathai" then send("terminate and selfdestruct")."
    - Makarios says, "Serve well and perish."
    - Xaden says, "Xaden confirmed scrub 2017."



  • Ryzeth said:
    (serious) Two-part question of curiosity;
     a) Where the hell do you guys bash?
     b) What is your potash/health percentages set at?
    :|

    (when I can get them all, early in the morning)
    I clear Dun Fortress, Tir, Moghedu, Tsol'aa and Tenwat, and don't even burn through 600 health sips / 250 potash, and I don't even have arties. Takes maybe ~90min to get through that. I usually do all of that, play a game of LoL or something while my endurance regens, then start over.

    You pretty much named the places I stay away from. Mog and Dun are too crowded, Tir had its gold reward nerfed and has low talisman drops, Tsol'aa was for my 90's. 

    Gotta get creative with your areas. I love Hthrak and Istarion, the former due to amazing fast serpent bashing speed and the latter for talismans. For gold, I do UW or Annwyn, occassionally Azdun (crypt), Prin, Meropis, etc 
  • Dairon said:

    Gotta get creative with your areas.
    I only ever bash for gold, and those four places are perfect for it. As said, I very rarely bash in the afternoon, so I rarely ever have to compete for any of the areas I mentioned. Tsol'aa is still great gold, especially for how easy it is. Tir is still fine gold wise, only lose like 3 or 4k from not being able to turn in corpses. Only once in the past week when I've went to Dun has there been someone else there. Mog (when I go there) I always get at least ~80% of the area to myself.

    The comment was more about how people burn through so much, than a lack of areas for me. I'm saying I barely burn through any :P
  • Ryzeth said:
    Dairon said:

    Gotta get creative with your areas.
    I only ever bash for gold, and those four places are perfect for it. As said, I very rarely bash in the afternoon, so I rarely ever have to compete for any of the areas I mentioned. Tsol'aa is still great gold, especially for how easy it is. Tir is still fine gold wise, only lose like 3 or 4k from not being able to turn in corpses. Only once in the past week when I've went to Dun has there been someone else there. Mog (when I go there) I always get at least ~80% of the area to myself.

    The comment was more about how people burn through so much, than a lack of areas for me. I'm saying I barely burn through any :P
     :innocent: 
  • edited March 2016
    Eld said:
    Atalkez said:
    Being artied myself and watching Seragorn and Jhui hunt I've questioned if there is a cap at all.
    If there were no cap anyone level 125 or over (so at least Penwize) would have 100% crits without bonuses.
    Maybe it has diminishing returns or something, I don't know. My opinion is anecdotal, as it is.

    Seragorn and Jhui have what seems to be a much higher rate of critting than I see when bashing alone, from so many trips of hunting with them.




    Penwize has cowardly forfeited the challenge to mortal combat issued by Atalkez.
  • Atalkez said:
    Eld said:
    Atalkez said:
    Being artied myself and watching Seragorn and Jhui hunt I've questioned if there is a cap at all.
    If there were no cap anyone level 125 or over (so at least Penwize) would have 100% crits without bonuses.
    Maybe it has diminishing returns or something, I don't know. My opinion is anecdotal, as it is.

    Seragorn and Jhui have what seems to be a much higher rate of critting than I see when bashing alone, from so many trips of hunting with them.
    The returns diminish very sharply when you hit the cap!
  • Eld said:
    Atalkez said:
    Eld said:
    Atalkez said:
    Being artied myself and watching Seragorn and Jhui hunt I've questioned if there is a cap at all.
    If there were no cap anyone level 125 or over (so at least Penwize) would have 100% crits without bonuses.
    Maybe it has diminishing returns or something, I don't know. My opinion is anecdotal, as it is.

    Seragorn and Jhui have what seems to be a much higher rate of critting than I see when bashing alone, from so many trips of hunting with them.
    The returns diminish very sharply when you hit the cap!
    Supposed cap*




    Penwize has cowardly forfeited the challenge to mortal combat issued by Atalkez.
  • KayeilKayeil Washington State
    Seragorn told me there wasn't a cap, but when I've asked the admins they say there is one. I don't know what change Seragorn has noticed over the levels to give him the impression that the crits will keep increasing as one keeps on leveling. Maybe it's just that he's a beast, and that's all there is to it. He is pretty ridiculous to hunt with.
    What doesn't kill you gives you exp.

  • edited March 2016
    Sorry for the double post, but on a more serious note:

    I've been doing some trial testing in regards to hunting attacks. As a SnB spec Knight, my main hunting attack consists of two attacks being slice/shield. Outward appearances says that this is good, because you get an extra hit thereby giving extra critical hit chances.

    My issue arises in that, the criticals from the shield strike alone are really non-factors. So even if I have a seemingly increased crit "rate", the overall DPS of the crits seem to be less than they would be if I was using a consolidated attack (single attack).

    From what I've found when using jab target, whip of taming, level two dirk - it seems to be that crit consolidation is quite a bit better than sheer critical chances. That is to say, when I consolidate my attack into one, my criticals are more effective overall than when I use the double attack.

    Wondering if anyone has any numbers they could lend to the discussion?

    For evidence:

    Whip - https://ada-young.appspot.com/pastebin/823881bf
    Regular - https://ada-young.appspot.com/pastebin/08da8fd5




    Penwize has cowardly forfeited the challenge to mortal combat issued by Atalkez.
  • Switch to 2h and buy a level 2 bastard sword, it's so excellent at 100+ :D
  • I haven't noticed any change in my crits as I level past 100, and I have a crit tracker. It's been sitting at about the same after enough data is collected every time. If there's a change it's a minute one.

  • Valkyn said:
    I haven't noticed any change in my crits as I level past 100, and I have a crit tracker. It's been sitting at about the same after enough data is collected every time. If there's a change it's a minute one.
    Concur with this.
    - (Eleusis): Ellodin says, "The Fissure of Echoes is Sarathai's happy place."
    - With sharp, crackling tones, Kyrra tells you, "The ladies must love you immensely."
    - (Eleusian Ranger Techs): Savira says, "Most of the hard stuff seem to have this built in code like: If adventurer_hitting_me = "Sarathai" then send("terminate and selfdestruct")."
    - Makarios says, "Serve well and perish."
    - Xaden says, "Xaden confirmed scrub 2017."



  • It doesn't change, I think. Which is why I said 100+!
  • edited March 2016
    Atalkez said:
    Sorry for the double post, but on a more serious note:

    I've been doing some trial testing in regards to hunting attacks. As a SnB spec Knight, my main hunting attack consists of two attacks being slice/shield. Outward appearances says that this is good, because you get an extra hit thereby giving extra critical hit chances.

    My issue arises in that, the criticals from the shield strike alone are really non-factors. So even if I have a seemingly increased crit "rate", the overall DPS of the crits seem to be less than they would be if I was using a consolidated attack (single attack).

    From what I've found when using jab target, whip of taming, level two dirk - it seems to be that crit consolidation is quite a bit better than sheer critical chances. That is to say, when I consolidate my attack into one, my criticals are more effective overall than when I use the double attack.

    Wondering if anyone has any numbers they could lend to the discussion?

    For evidence:

    Whip - https://ada-young.appspot.com/pastebin/823881bf
    Regular - https://ada-young.appspot.com/pastebin/08da8fd5
    In theory, splitting the attack into two (or more, hi Monk!) parts shouldn't matter for DPS; all that matters is the total damage. Crits will account for the same percentage increase regardless, so getting more, weaker crits should average to being the same as getting fewer, stronger crits over time.

    In practice, denizens don't have millions of points of health and a lot of people don't hunt continuously for long periods of time. Getting a large crit on a single attack that deals more damage is more likely to kill the target, meaning less attacks overall for that kill, especially if it's one of your first attacks on that target.

    This is basically the opposite of the situation pre-Battlerage, where a large crit on even a weak attack was often sufficient to do a substantial percentage of the target's health, and more opportunities to crit (even if they did less damage individually) generally resulted in faster hunting.
  • edited March 2016
    Because this comes up so often and a lot of people have trouble with the intuition behind it, here are some numbers that might help:

    Imagine you have an attack that does 1000 damage with a 10% chance to crit for double damage.

    That means 90% of the time it does 1000 damage and 10% of the time it does 2000 damage.

    Which means the average damage is (.9*1000) + (.1*2000)

    Which comes out to 1100.

    Imagine instead you have two attacks that do 500 each with a 10% chance to crit for double damage.

    That means, for each attack, 90% of the time it does 500 damage and 10% of the time it does 1000 damage.

    Which means the average damage for each attack is (.9*500) + (.1*1000)

    Which comes out to 550.

    You have two attacks, so 550 * 2 = 1100.

    1100 = 1100

    @Antonius: That doesn't actually follow. You're right that smaller, faster attacks were clearly worth more before the changes (when pretty much any bashing attack could kill in one hit with a crit), but big attacks aren't necessarily better now. The question is still what percentage of mob health values will cause you to overshoot with the big attack and how much time will that cost you versus what percentage of mob health values will cause you to undershoot with the smaller attacks and how much time will it cost you to use the one additional attack it takes you. That's going to depend on the distribution of mob health values and on the particular damage and timings of the attacks in question. I would be pretty surprised if it's generally true that bigger attacks are better now.
  • Atalkez said:
    Eld said:
    Atalkez said:
    Eld said:
    Atalkez said:
    Being artied myself and watching Seragorn and Jhui hunt I've questioned if there is a cap at all.
    If there were no cap anyone level 125 or over (so at least Penwize) would have 100% crits without bonuses.
    Maybe it has diminishing returns or something, I don't know. My opinion is anecdotal, as it is.

    Seragorn and Jhui have what seems to be a much higher rate of critting than I see when bashing alone, from so many trips of hunting with them.
    The returns diminish very sharply when you hit the cap!
    Supposed cap*
    The ~80k hits worth of critical data I got from level 100+ players (mostly Penwize) a while back looked to be almost exactly what you'd expect a level 99 player to get (which is the reason for suspecting the cap might be 99 instead of 100).
  • Taeltwo said:
    @Antonius: That doesn't actually follow. You're right that smaller, faster attacks were clearly worth more before the changes (when pretty much any bashing attack could kill in one hit with a crit), but big attacks aren't necessarily better now. The question is still what percentage of mob health values will cause you to overshoot with the big attack and how much time will that cost you versus what percentage of mob health values will cause you to undershoot with the smaller attacks and how much time will it cost you to use the one additional attack it takes you. That's going to depend on the distribution of mob health values and on the particular damage and timings of the attacks in question. I would be pretty surprised if it's generally true that bigger attacks are better now.
    I don't know if it's generally true. I wouldn't be surprised if it was true against high level denizens (mainly Annwyn since I rarely hunt elsewhere) with a lot of health, though. In those cases the difference in number of additional hits required, after scoring a strong crit early in the fight, is going to be considerably higher than one.

    This can already be seen bashing as a Bard or Sword and Shield spec Knight, where your attack is split into two parts, but not evenly. There is a staggering difference between getting a WSC on the jab and getting a WSC on accentato as Bard. Over the long term it averages out, because that's how DPS works, but a lot of/most people don't bash continuously for extended periods of time.
  • It doesn't make a difference if you bash for long periods of time or not. If it averages out to be the same in the long term, then it's also the same on average in the short term. It can't be extremely beneficial in the short term but less so in the long term, because the long term is just a bunch of short terms.
  • AhmetAhmet Wherever I wanna be
    Taeltwo said:
    Because this comes up so often and a lot of people have trouble with the intuition behind it, here are some numbers that might help:

    Imagine you have an attack that does 1000 damage with a 10% chance to crit for double damage.

    That means 90% of the time it does 1000 damage and 10% of the time it does 2000 damage.

    Which means the average damage is (.9*1000) + (.1*2000)

    Which comes out to 1100.

    Imagine instead you have two attacks that do 500 each with a 10% chance to crit for double damage.

    That means, for each attack, 90% of the time it does 500 damage and 10% of the time it does 1000 damage.

    Which means the average damage for each attack is (.9*500) + (.1*1000)

    Which comes out to 550.

    You have two attacks, so 550 * 2 = 1100.

    1100 = 1100

    @Antonius: That doesn't actually follow. You're right that smaller, faster attacks were clearly worth more before the changes (when pretty much any bashing attack could kill in one hit with a crit), but big attacks aren't necessarily better now. The question is still what percentage of mob health values will cause you to overshoot with the big attack and how much time will that cost you versus what percentage of mob health values will cause you to undershoot with the smaller attacks and how much time will it cost you to use the one additional attack it takes you. That's going to depend on the distribution of mob health values and on the particular damage and timings of the attacks in question. I would be pretty surprised if it's generally true that bigger attacks are better now.
    Your dps values are off, by the by. Just sayin. Have to account for upper crits.
    Huh. Neat.
  • edited March 2016
    Antonius said:
    Taeltwo said:
    @Antonius: That doesn't actually follow. You're right that smaller, faster attacks were clearly worth more before the changes (when pretty much any bashing attack could kill in one hit with a crit), but big attacks aren't necessarily better now. The question is still what percentage of mob health values will cause you to overshoot with the big attack and how much time will that cost you versus what percentage of mob health values will cause you to undershoot with the smaller attacks and how much time will it cost you to use the one additional attack it takes you. That's going to depend on the distribution of mob health values and on the particular damage and timings of the attacks in question. I would be pretty surprised if it's generally true that bigger attacks are better now.
    I don't know if it's generally true. I wouldn't be surprised if it was true against high level denizens (mainly Annwyn since I rarely hunt elsewhere) with a lot of health, though. In those cases the difference in number of additional hits required, after scoring a strong crit early in the fight, is going to be considerably higher than one.

    This can already be seen bashing as a Bard or Sword and Shield spec Knight, where your attack is split into two parts, but not evenly. There is a staggering difference between getting a WSC on the jab and getting a WSC on accentato as Bard. Over the long term it averages out, because that's how DPS works, but a lot of/most people don't bash continuously for extended periods of time.
    If you compare two attacks that have the same DPS and different speed, and the speed of one isn't evenly divisible by the other (if it is, the faster one is universally superior), then there will be two situations you can run into.

    For a given max health, the last blows will fit one of these two possible patterns:

    1. The mob's remaining health means that both the faster attack and the slower attack will kill it in one blow. In this case, the faster attack is better by a margin of the difference between the speed of the faster and slower attack.

    2. The mob's remaining health means that the slower attack will kill it in one blow and the faster attack won't (i.e., it will take two fast attacks). In this case, the slower attack is better by a margin of the the difference between the slower attack and two of the faster attacks.

    Things are slightly more complicated if the faster attack is more than 50% faster than the slower attack, but basically the same logic holds.

    So the question is, which will be more frequent, #1 or #2?

    Which one will be better in the long run is going to depend on the distribution of mob health values (and on what the speeds of the two attacks actually are, relative to that distribution). Without thinking about it too deeply, and I could definitely be wrong, my intuition is that if mob health values are randomly distributed, I think that the two attacks will be equally efficient.

    Either way, the more pragmatic answer is that it's almost certainly not worth worrying about anymore. It only mattered before because you would so frequently wildly overshoot the max health of your targets. In most cases now you probably want to just do whatever attack gets you the highest DPS - wasted DPS is just not going to have anywhere near the same impact on efficiency as it used to.
  • edited March 2016
    Ahmet said:
    Taeltwo said:
    Because this comes up so often and a lot of people have trouble with the intuition behind it, here are some numbers that might help:

    Imagine you have an attack that does 1000 damage with a 10% chance to crit for double damage.

    That means 90% of the time it does 1000 damage and 10% of the time it does 2000 damage.

    Which means the average damage is (.9*1000) + (.1*2000)

    Which comes out to 1100.

    Imagine instead you have two attacks that do 500 each with a 10% chance to crit for double damage.

    That means, for each attack, 90% of the time it does 500 damage and 10% of the time it does 1000 damage.

    Which means the average damage for each attack is (.9*500) + (.1*1000)

    Which comes out to 550.

    You have two attacks, so 550 * 2 = 1100.

    1100 = 1100

    @Antonius: That doesn't actually follow. You're right that smaller, faster attacks were clearly worth more before the changes (when pretty much any bashing attack could kill in one hit with a crit), but big attacks aren't necessarily better now. The question is still what percentage of mob health values will cause you to overshoot with the big attack and how much time will that cost you versus what percentage of mob health values will cause you to undershoot with the smaller attacks and how much time will it cost you to use the one additional attack it takes you. That's going to depend on the distribution of mob health values and on the particular damage and timings of the attacks in question. I would be pretty surprised if it's generally true that bigger attacks are better now.
    Your dps values are off, by the by. Just sayin. Have to account for upper crits.
    I did that for the sake of simplicity. Upper crits don't change anything.

    Look at a 10% double and a 5% triple crit rate on a 1000 damage attack:

    That means the average damage is (.85*1000) + (.1*2000) + (.05*3000)

    Which comes out to 1200.

    Same crit scheme for 500 damage attack: (.85*500) + (.1*1000) + (.05*1500)

    That's 600.

    So two of those are 1200.

    1200=1200

    You can substitute in any crit percentages and any multipliers and add any number of other multipliers you want, you'll always find the same thing. If two attacks have the same DPS without crits, no structure of fixed-value crit chance and crit multipliers will get you attacks that have different DPS with crits.

    Which should be intuitive if you think about it. In the long run, crits are just multipliers. So basically all you're doing is applying the x2 before the crit multipliers in the case of the big, slow attack and after crits in the case of the small, faster attack. And multiplication is commutative.
  • You're values are based on the assumption that attack1 and attack2 do the same damage in a double attack pattern.

    From what I've seen the shield strike alone accounts for only 33% of the total damage of the attack, with the slice being 66% of the attack.

    Getting a critical on the 66% attack gives a higher return than getting a critical on the 33% attack, both of which have an equal chance of happening, which (seems to me) to reduce the effectiveness of the critical hits of both attacks.

    So far, I've preferred the consolidated attacks over the split attacks.




    Penwize has cowardly forfeited the challenge to mortal combat issued by Atalkez.
  • Sena already explained it makes no difference.
  • edited March 2016
    Kiet said:
    Sena already explained it makes no difference.
    Not quite. She explained how something can't be beneficial in short runs but only average in the long runs. 

    If we're operating under the assumption that bashing with a dual attack will do the same DPS for your class as bashing with a single attack (that isn't necessarily your primary attack) - then sure.

    I don't think that is the case, though. Purely from the the hunting that I do personally, since switching to the consolidated attack I clear areas faster than I was prior.




    Penwize has cowardly forfeited the challenge to mortal combat issued by Atalkez.
  • DPS isn't actually the metric that matters there, I'd argue kills per minute matters more.  For example, at roughly 3.5% chance for WSC crits, and a 3.5% chance for annihilating crits, a faster attack speed but (marginally) lower DPS can still produce a significant increase in kills per minute, because of how often those two crit types will hugely overkill.  This is especially true when coupled with smart use of battlerage abilities to draw things down to crit-kill range quickly.
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