Quick Questions

Aesi

Antonius said:

Dragon bashing is garbage, "you'll be out DPSing dragons" isn't a solid endorsement of a class these days.

Honestly, if you're going to invest in a new class with a couple of level three artefacts to bash, I'd suggest Bard. Hits hard, hits fast, can tank, can use SoA, has dwinnu for those fucking Sidhe ladies.

I keep forgetting about guitar hero.

Kythra

Alchemist hunting legit makes me cry how slow it is. I get constantly or damaged due to taking 3+ hits after one Bashing attack. I want something that I can just go and loop places forever with a decent hunting balance.

Aesi

Kythra said:

Alchemist hunting legit makes me cry how slow it is. I get constantly or damaged due to taking 3+ hits after one Bashing attack. I want something that I can just go and loop places forever with a decent hunting balance.

bard or runie.

Sena

Serpent with L3 lash and 19 dex will give you among the highest DPS in the game (some knight specs will probably still be better, I don't have good numbers for current knight DPS). But you will need good defensive arties as well if you want the bashing to really be amazing. Edit: Yes, even with 15 dex and L2 lash, you'll probably be better than most classes.

If you're choosing a class purely for the hunting, I'd recommend runewarden, which has top-tier offence and defence (though as I said, I don't have good details on knight bashing, so I don't know which spec is best now). Knights don't particularly need any arties to be effective either (whereas unartied serpent is pretty average).

Last I checked (right after weapon stats were standardised), bard DPS wasn't especially high. Well above average (with canticle), just not amazing like knight/serpent.

Kythra

Which spec is best. Do I need to invest in Strength or can I dump everything into con? I have a pebble so is Runie the better option after all? I want to hunt on loops for long whiles.

Deladan

Runewarden with Endurance regen of some sort. Hunt forever. Pick Snb and you get to use soa... so there's that. 

Trevize

Deladan said:

Runewarden with Endurance regen of some sort. Hunt forever. Pick Snb and you get to use soa... so there's that. 

SnB runewarden with weathering, con, runes, runed fullplate - it's almost like hunting in dragon.

I never run out of endurance.

Sena

Kythra said:

Which spec is best. Do I need to invest in Strength or can I dump everything into con? I have a pebble so is Runie the better option after all? I want to hunt on loops for long whiles.

Early on (when the bashing was still being adjusted so it's likely to be different now), dual blunt had much better DPS than the other specs (the others weren't too far apart), and of course SnB is the best defensively since you can use shields. That's pretty much all I know at this point.

Choosing between con and your offensive stat is exactly the same as it is for every class (except serpent); it just depends on what balance of safety and speed you want. All classes aside from serpent get nearly the same benefit from str/int (whichever they use), so it's not significantly more important for one class than another. Con's importance does vary though, based on the class's other defences. With runewarden's +2 con, health regen, and heavy damage resistance, I don't think you'll really miss a few points of con if you want faster bashing.


As for whether getting arties for your current class as Kiet suggested would be better than a second class: Alchemist's long eq will probably make it feel slow, even if you had exceptional DPS, so if that's your main issue then another class is probably the best solution. And taking unartied runewarden will be a lot cheaper and more effective than getting alchemist arties.

For reference, your DPS as a 16 int (not sure what you actually have) alchemist without arties is probably around 205 (not counting the crit bonus from extispicy). Unartied dragon is ~262, artied dragon is ~311.

Cost to max out alchemist offence (19 int, L3 collar, diadem): 5300 credits. Expected DPS: ~325
Cost for more moderately artied alchemist (17 int, L1 collar, diadem): 2100 credits. Expected DPS: ~250

Cost to multiclass serpent with max offence (L3 lash, 19 dex, single-trans since subterfuge is all you need for hunting): 4517 credits. Expected DPS: ~445
Cost to multiclass serpent with more moderate arties (L2 lash, 16 dex): 1217 credits. Expected DPS: ~288

Cost to multiclass runewarden with max offence (L3 weapon(s), 19 str, tri-trans+weaponry, assuming you don't already have weaponry): 5640 credits for one weapon, 7240 credits for two. Expected DPS: ??? (I'd guess at least 350+, 400+ seems likely enough)
Cost to multiclass runewarden without arties (16 str, trans weaponmastery, runelore only to runicarmour, minimal chivalry): 780 credits. Expected DPS: ??? (I'd very roughly guess 230+, 250+ is a possibility)

Antonius

Figured I'd actually test this, and here are the results.

Sword and shield Paladin, 23 strength, level 2 longsword (I'm not committed enough to this testing to spend 800 credits, sorry) and SoA: 579 damage. Using Mudlet's timestamps, average balance recovery looks to be about 2.2 seconds.

Dual cutting Runewarden, 22 strength, level 3 scimitars: 568 damage. 1.8 seconds balance using timestamps.

Bard, 20 strength, level 3 rapier (also level 3 collar, didn't test if it affects accentato damage against denizens): 572 damage. 1.5 seconds (with Canticle) balance using timestamps.

Bard, 18 strength (i.e. con specced), all other factors the same: 546 damage.

Basically, even con specced Bard with level three artefacts beats out strength specced Knights using either dual cutting or sword and shield specialisations. Unlike sword and shield, you can use a SoA without sacrificing attack speed. If you regularly bash in places that web a lot (e.g. Sidhe) then dwinnu's effect on clear speed cannot be understated. Since it's not really reliant on strength or intelligence for PvP if you fight with the intention of locking, you can trait for more con or (as I have) the sip bonus without sacrificing in that area. Just hands down the superior option.

Dairon

Sena said:

Kythra said:

Which spec is best. Do I need to invest in Strength or can I dump everything into con? I have a pebble so is Runie the better option after all? I want to hunt on loops for long whiles.

Early on (when the bashing was still being adjusted so it's likely to be different now), dual blunt had much better DPS than the other specs (the others weren't too far apart), and of course SnB is the best defensively since you can use shields. That's pretty much all I know at this point.

Choosing between con and your offensive stat is exactly the same as it is for every class (except serpent); it just depends on what balance of safety and speed you want. All classes aside from serpent get nearly the same benefit from str/int (whichever they use), so it's not significantly more important for one class than another. Con's importance does vary though, based on the class's other defences. With runewarden's +2 con, health regen, and heavy damage resistance, I don't think you'll really miss a few points of con if you want faster bashing.


As for whether getting arties for your current class as Kiet suggested would be better than a second class: Alchemist's long eq will probably make it feel slow, even if you had exceptional DPS, so if that's your main issue then another class is probably the best solution. And taking unartied runewarden will be a lot cheaper and more effective than getting alchemist arties.

For reference, your DPS as a 16 int (not sure what you actually have) alchemist without arties is probably around 205 (not counting the crit bonus from extispicy). Unartied dragon is ~262, artied dragon is ~311.

Cost to max out alchemist offence (19 int, L3 collar, diadem): 5300 credits. Expected DPS: ~325
Cost for more moderately artied alchemist (17 int, L1 collar, diadem): 2100 credits. Expected DPS: ~250

Cost to multiclass serpent with max offence (L3 lash, 19 dex, single-trans since subterfuge is all you need for hunting): 4517 credits. Expected DPS: ~445
Cost to multiclass serpent with more moderate arties (L2 lash, 16 dex): 1217 credits. Expected DPS: ~288

Cost to multiclass runewarden with max offence (L3 weapon(s), 19 str, tri-trans+weaponry, assuming you don't already have weaponry): 5640 credits for one weapon, 7240 credits for two. Expected DPS: ??? (I'd guess at least 350+, 400+ seems likely enough)
Cost to multiclass runewarden without arties (16 str, trans weaponmastery, runelore only to runicarmour, minimal chivalry): 780 credits. Expected DPS: ??? (I'd very roughly guess 230+, 250+ is a possibility)

Cons to bashing as a serpent is the very very low health, as it was previously mentioned by so many people. 
Having a level 3 lash and 19 dex is great, but that puts you at 3000-4000 health in the 90's. I ended up focusing most of my credits on defensive artefacts (level 2 belt, bracelet, sip ring) and sacrificed a trait for robust (+1 con) to max at 5600 at level 98. My bashing speed was still fantastic, however. 

In summary, the credit cost for going serpent will need to calculate defensive artefacts because you won't be able to tank anything bigger than two orc soldiers without running. 

Sarathai

Antonius said:

Sword and shield Paladin, 23 strength, level 2 longsword (I'm not committed enough to this testing to spend 800 credits, sorry) and SoA: 579 damage. Using Mudlet's timestamps, average balance recovery looks to be about 2.2 seconds.

Dual cutting Runewarden, 22 strength, level 3 scimitars: 568 damage. 1.8 seconds balance using timestamps.

Bard, 20 strength, level 3 rapier (also level 3 collar, didn't test if it affects accentato damage against denizens): 572 damage. 1.5 seconds (with Canticle) balance using timestamps.

Bard, 18 strength (i.e. con specced), all other factors the same: 546 damage.

That's disgustingly high (and I thought Serpent was the highest DPS), especially with how tanky the knight classes can get. And probably needs either a nerf, or several other classes getting a buff.

Kiet

That's almost 3 times what regular classes do unartied And almost double what dragon does artied.

Antonius

Just to be clear: That's raw damage, not DPS. If you're comparing to Sena's numbers (which are DPS) then you'll need to calculate DPS (damage/balance) first.

Kiet

Oh, my bad, I misread.

Dochitha

Kythra said:

Alchemist hunting legit makes me cry how slow it is. I get constantly or damaged due to taking 3+ hits after one Bashing attack. I want something that I can just go and loop places forever with a decent hunting balance.

Alchemist isn't that bad. I think your issue is tanking the mobs before you can get balance back, which can be mitigated by:

• Go con spec. Makes you tank longer and harder, sips moss more too.
• Quick Witted. Get a Diadem too.
• Don't forget cutting and blunt Robes.
• Use Petrifying, endorphin.
• Magnesium battlerage kills -very- quickly esp when crit hits. 
• Extispicy is OP.
• Go human if you want crit bonus. Crit is the #1 factor that makes hunting quicker.

Going serp with quicker balance allows you to hit and run earlier, if that's what you like. I prefer standing and keep hitting, hence, con spec while letting magnesium and crits do the job.

And I am not sure how the numbers run, but comparing with Dragon, I can hunt an area out in 50% of the time I do in dragonform. I still hunt the same places I hunt in dragonform, not even degrading.

Dairon

Dochitha said:

Kythra said:

Alchemist hunting legit makes me cry how slow it is. I get constantly or damaged due to taking 3+ hits after one Bashing attack. I want something that I can just go and loop places forever with a decent hunting balance.

Alchemist isn't that bad. I think your issue is tanking the mobs before you can get balance back, which can be mitigated by:

• Go con spec. Makes you tank longer and harder, sips moss more too.
• Quick Witted. Get a Diadem too.
• Don't forget cutting and blunt Robes.
• Use Petrifying, endorphin.
• Magnesium battlerage kills -very- quickly esp when crit hits. 
• Extispicy is OP.
• Go human if you want crit bonus. Crit is the #1 factor that makes hunting quicker.

Going serp with quicker balance allows you to hit and run earlier, if that's what you like. I prefer standing and keep hitting, hence, con spec while letting magnesium and crits do the job.

And I am not sure how the numbers run, but comparing with Dragon, I can hunt an area out in 50% of the time I do in dragonform. I still hunt the same places I hunt in dragonform, not even degrading.

Are there any artefacts that affect Alchemist's offensive damage? (other than crit pendant, diadem). 

Cynlael

int/collar.

Valkyn

I have no idea how much damage I do against denizens, I assume it's less per hit than runie/bard, but my speed with 19 dex and L2 lash is 1.1s. I wish I had those boots all the time (normally 17 dex). Tempted to try to upgrade the lash and see how fast it is with that.

Morthif

Antonius said:

Figured I'd actually test this, and here are the results.

Sword and shield Paladin, 23 strength, level 2 longsword (I'm not committed enough to this testing to spend 800 credits, sorry) and SoA: 579 damage. Using Mudlet's timestamps, average balance recovery looks to be about 2.2 seconds.

Dual cutting Runewarden, 22 strength, level 3 scimitars: 568 damage. 1.8 seconds balance using timestamps.

Bard, 20 strength, level 3 rapier (also level 3 collar, didn't test if it affects accentato damage against denizens): 572 damage. 1.5 seconds (with Canticle) balance using timestamps.

Bard, 18 strength (i.e. con specced), all other factors the same: 546 damage.

Basically, even con specced Bard with level three artefacts beats out strength specced Knights using either dual cutting or sword and shield specialisations. Unlike sword and shield, you can use a SoA without sacrificing attack speed. If you regularly bash in places that web a lot (e.g. Sidhe) then dwinnu's effect on clear speed cannot be understated. Since it's not really reliant on strength or intelligence for PvP if you fight with the intention of locking, you can trait for more con or (as I have) the sip bonus without sacrificing in that area. Just hands down the superior option.

Lvl 3 longsword + SoA is sub 2 secs

Eld

@Sena, out of curiosity, are your DPS estimates there including battlerage, or not? I'm assuming battlerage DPS is pretty much equal across the board, so it doesn't really affect the comparisons between your numbers, but relevant for comparing to others'. 

Sena

Without battlerage. I think it is pretty much the same, as you said (except that dragon battlerage DPS is pretty different from non-dragons), but I don't actually have numbers for most classes.

Eld

Sena said:

Without battlerage. I think it is pretty much the same, as you said (except that dragon battlerage DPS is pretty different from non-dragons), but I don't actually have numbers for most classes.

That's what I figured. That actually makes blademaster seem less bad than I'd been thinking, if my estimates aren't too far off (~283 with L3 band and 15 str, ~337 with L3 band and 18 str, and ~71 from battlerage). Do you have a ballpark estimate of how different dragon battlerage dps is from what other classes you have numbers for?

Sena

Shaman battlerage DPS is ~70, red dragon battlerage DPS is ~93. That's battlerage damage alone, using the most efficient priority for damage abilities (haemorrhage before corruption, dragonblaze before overwhelm) without any afflictions.

Eld

Sena said:

Shaman battlerage DPS is ~70, red dragon battlerage DPS is ~93. That's battlerage damage alone, using the most efficient priority for damage abilities (haemorrhage before corruption, dragonblaze before overwhelm) without any afflictions.

Right, that's how I was calculating it for blademaster, as well.

Sarathai

Sena said:

Shaman battlerage DPS is ~70, red dragon battlerage DPS is ~93. That's battlerage damage alone, using the most efficient priority for damage abilities (haemorrhage before corruption, dragonblaze before overwhelm) without any afflictions.

Do you have any data on other dragon colours? I'd be willing to test for you if need be. Unless the other colours are
mostly the same (i.e. the "big hit" BR ability is the same across the board).

Sena

I only have red dragon. They all have either overwhelm or override (red/gold/silver have overwhelm, blue/black/green have override), but the rest is unique as far as I know.

Sarathai

Would a Black or Silver giving sensitivity rather than their Battlerage attack be better or worse for overall DPS, assuming Override/the-silver-one is in the same range as Dragonblaze?

Sena

It shouldn't be too hard to calculate, I'll check sometime tomorrow (don't have time to do it now).

Kiet

The problem with sensitivity for battlerage is it seems to not affect the battlerage attacks themselves. Unless your basic attack does pretty high dps compared to the battlerage abilities it doesn't seem worth it solo, though my math's been pretty simple and only applies to an unartied serpent, so take this with a grain of salt.

Atalkez

I personally only use the damage attacks and skip the afflictions altogether when I'm hunting alone or in a group. Don't really see the point of using that rage instead of saving it for my big damage battlerage attack when it is off cooldown.