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Comments
Results of disembowel testing | Knight limb counter | GMCP AB files
I defiled a few shrines basically for no reason, whatever had some corpses.
I was witnessed by one person.
A few moments later this person was getting close to me on the Isle, so I assumed naturally that they'd attack. I initiated an attack, and was told that attacking a witness isn't allowed. I apologized and said I'd unravel my puppet.
Not two minutes later, their IG husband attacks me at NoT.
This doesn't bother me, but something doesn't make sense.
If I defile and someone comes and intentionally witnesses, I NEED to stand by and wait to get attacked first? That sort of leaves me at a huge disadvantage, especially seeing as a witness INTENTIONALLY witnesses the shrine.
So TL;DR: Can I attack someone for witnessing me?
PS: No hate to either of the two involved with this, I'm glad it taught me a new rule
Admin stance is:
You can't attack the defender until they attack you. Witnessing is not an aggressive action.
The defender can attack the defiler without a writ (without witnessing). The defender opens themselves up to being hired on by the defiler if they do so, or up to losing an issue if they guess wrong and that person didn't actually defile.
I just can't understand why when someone who is clearly going to attack me is following me, I've got to wait for it to happen before I can react. Not a huge deal, once they attack me it won't be hard to get away and then just attack them soon after. Still a senseless rule.
But as you said Jacen, I guess it makes sense if someone wants to witness 10 defilers without being one-shotted.
i.e. Price groups of 5 monoliths this price, price single monoliths this price.
Anyone able to tell me how to do it properly? The way I normally do it has stopped working...
Which made no sense to me. After fiddling with about half a dozen different syntaxes, I managed to get it to work. IDEA'd that there should be a nice, easy way to price these sorts of things.
if someone witnesses you, you should be able to attack them back 100%. If they want to stay out of conflict, they do not have to go witness, nor do they have to keep that shrine up or even care that it's defiled. That's what your order combatants are for. The non-coms can go raise a new shrine if they want to participate without getting attacked.
No one wants to lose an issue over this in the future, so let's take care of this dumb ass perception now?
It's especially a problem that in the past, the admins made it very clear (in response to ISSUES, ISSUE ME, etc.) that witnessing was considered provocation and that you could retaliate for it. Witnessing also drops rebounding. So, people are used to attacking when they see it, and a lot of people don't browse the forums and see these random rule change posts. Then, they get screwed over for a silent rule change, when their conduct was considered perfectly in line with the rules previously.
But really, the whole concept of "Hah hah hah, I'm going to kill you later but you can't touch me" is just silly. It's beyond common sense to think that you should be able to just waltz into a room you know is full of your Order's enemies while they defile a shrine and expect them to just stare at you and not attack. Gather up your own group and attack with it! Or witness and flee on your own, if you wish. Witnessing, issuing those who attack, and then ganking them later when they're disfavored because you have a writ is just lame playing.
Defiling is a great conflict starter because the defilers are saying "Hey, want to fight? If so, come kill us!" but not forcing anyone to come and fight. You have the choice of letting the shrine fall. If you choose conflict, you should handle the consequences.
Drop them one at a time, then price all <singlesigil#> GOLD bin # and all the likewise single sigils of that type will go for sale.
If you have one down for security, (after you put the single sigils for sale) single out one sigil and price single <sigil> NOTFORSALE. Only one sigil will leave the for sale list in WARES. Its all about what order your drop and list for sale.
I never understood this attitude. You never have to erect shrines if you think they're annoying. To me, they're just a way for one group to say "Hey, I'm looking for a fight" to another group without randomly 5v1 ganking a Mark or some such instead (which is not very enjoyable for the one ganked). If you find them tiresome to maintain, you can just stop maintaining them - see: Babel's Order. It's player attitude that transforms something like that into something unfun (MUST. KEEP. MOST. SHRINES. UP. NO. MATTER. WHAT.).
Also having to basically sit around and do nothing because you lost all your willpower in 2 minutes gets a bit old. Sometimes you are the only order member around and corpses are about to decay.
If someone sits on the mountain and defiles with rats, that can be fun. A kinda "Can Timmy come out and play?" call and I have no issue whatsoever with that, but because shrine destruction is encouraged, the tactics usually employed are not that, it is "Let's start off plane or drop it and get the hell out of Dodge asap." Followed by "Yay, I dropped 4 shrines today" and the order members later logging in to go "Oh FFS!"
Penwize has cowardly forfeited the challenge to mortal combat issued by Atalkez.
Eh. That's not at all true. There are plenty of instances where Mhaldor doesn't defend shrines because it doesn't have enough people, and there is no penalty for it. And Mhaldor has also given up maintaining shrines at particular locations before when they were being frequently defiled and replaced. Any faction that feels it doesn't have the manpower to maintain a particular number of shrines has a perfectly legitimate RP reason not to maintain those shrines. The faction's time and effort may be better spent elsewhere, from an RP perspective.
There just happen to be plenty of us who are always aching for a fight, so it isn't a problem.
I personally would rather an Order automatically acquire a writ on each defiler when a shrine is destroyed, and drop the witnessing mechanic altogether, than the current system, which basically baits people to attack and then punishes them for it.
To me, it's not that defilers need a chance to stop people from hiring on them by killing the witnessers. It's just that the witnessers often witness and then a group earrings in and starts destroying you. They aren't "noncombatants" with no interest in fighting, and a defiler has no idea if they wish to fight or not. I would rather them just get the contracts without witnessing and only come if they want to fight than the bait and issue mechanic.
Another important thing to note is that the way the witness mechanic works in general doesn't at all work well with witnessing not granting pk cause. You can keep witnessing a defiler over and over again while they defile, so if they're not allowed to attack you, you might get a ridiculous number of contracts for the destruction of ONE shrine. This used to be balanced by the fact that you could only get as many writs as you could get while the defilers are trying to kill you, but if the defilers can't attack you, then the only way they can reduce the number of contracts gained to a reasonable number is by defiling shrines that are hard to get to, and that isn't the incentive we want. Usually, people try to defile shrines that are EASY to get to (on Mhaldor island, in eastern reaches, etc.) because they defile to provoke conflict and want the shrine to be easy to defend. But that makes them open to way more writ contracts than they should be if you just walk there and witness, witness, witness.
The above suggestion would at least fix this and remove the bad incentives.
And you won't understand the cause of your grief...
...But you'll always follow the voices beneath.
How does the system I described hurt Orders without combatants? They get free writs and can hire.
Everyone does not win with lolwitnessing as it is. It's a ridiculously stupid way to bait attacks and issue, and I'm sure you do not quite understand because you -are- in a noncom order. Combatant orders like to sometimes attack, sometimes not, sometimes setup offensive rites while witnessing and not enemy us and then claim "omg, didn't attack! I'm issuing!" It's just silly. You shouldn't be running to a shrine that is being defiled and performing offensive actions if you don't want to be attacked. Automatic acquisition of writs would allow noncom orders to keep their distance and hire marks.
If someone is defiling a non-com order then that person is probably a shitty person anyway. Not worth interacting with to even go up and witness.
Also ended up getting this message, is this normal?: