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Miscellaneous Maths/Testing II

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  • SuladanSuladan Member Posts: 193 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Sena said:
    While we have Anarchaea with free trans skills, is there anything that needs to be tested?
    Cap on garrote speed if there is one.
    The Truths hurt. Always.
  • SenaSena Member Posts: 3,957 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I'll need lots of credits for that. To buy dex boots and a lash.
  • SuladanSuladan Member Posts: 193 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Sena said:
    I'll need lots of credits for that. To buy dex boots and a lash.
    Have L3 lash, traded in stuff for boots at each level. Sent you logs with balance times (and network latency shown as well)

    The Truths hurt. Always.
  • SenaSena Member Posts: 3,957 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited October 2014
    So if there's a cap, it's at least 19, and there are apparently no diminishing returns. That means garrote can get down to 1.3 seconds (with 19 dex and a L3 lash), and probably down to 0.9 seconds with truefavour, +dex icon, and +dex elixir.

    If it can go down to 0.9, then a serpent with 22 dex and a L3 lash has about the same DPS as a 23 str bard/knight with a 122 damage 259 speed rapier.
  • ErnamErnam Member Posts: 2,416 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    edited October 2014
    Testing garrote now

    I'm averaging about 1.37 seconds at 20 Dex with level 3 lash (and, obviously, Nimble).
  • SenaSena Member Posts: 3,957 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Anyone with a falcon want to help me test dagger and halberd damage?
  • VaehlVaehl Member Posts: 962 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    What about people with Baalazdeens ;(
  • SenaSena Member Posts: 3,957 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    A baalzadeen would work, but Sena is an enemy of Mhaldor. Shouldn't be a problem if we're just doing some quick testing like this, though.
  • SenaSena Member Posts: 3,957 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Obviously, there's a whole lot of stuff that needs testing now. There's no shortage of knights playing around with weapon things already, and I can't test that stuff on my own anyways, so for now I'll start with formulation (specifically the ones that don't require someone else to help).

    Some basic information for those who don't have the skill to play with.
    [spoiler]
    To prepare a compound, you need a glass phial (sold in denizens shops for 50 gold each, single use) and a few minerals.
    After making a compound, you enhance different aspects of it (potency generally makes the effect stronger, volatility generally makes it faster, stability sometimes does stuff), and then you either throw it or imbibe it.
    Making and enhancing don't cost balance, so you can usually just carry around empty phials and have an alias to prepare, enhance, and use it at the same time.
    It doesn't seem to be documented anywhere, but PHIALLIST will give you a list of all the phials you're carrying, showing the decay time and enhancements.
    Does the mask actually do anything? I haven't found any effect from having it secured.
    Throwing any compound takes 2.5s balance, and they can all either be thrown at the ground or into an adjacent room.
    Imbibing doesn't take any balance.
    [/spoiler]

    More on enhancing.
    [spoiler]
    You enhance each individual phial after making it.
    Each phial can have a maximum of 5 enhancements. Each stat (potency, volatility, stability) starts at 1 and has a max of 5. That means you can max one stat and add 1 to another, or spread the enhancements however you want.
    Not all enhancements apply to every compound. Most of them get no benefit from enhanced stability, for example.
    Sometimes full enhancement (5) is required for any benefit, while 2-4 are the same as 1.
    [/spoiler]

    And the details of each compound.
    [spoiler]
    Endorphin
    Applies: Room effect in target room (thrown)
    Function: Heals 9% of max health per tick, plus an additional (Potency)% of max health if potency is above 1
    Tick Speed: 40/Volatility seconds
    Duration: 14 ticks, no effect from stability
    Repeated: Refresh

    Nutritional
    Applies: self (imbibed)
    Function: I assume it simply satisfies your hunger, same as eating food. I haven't been hungry in years, so I'm not sure of the details.

    Incendiary
    Applies: Affliction to all in the target room (thrown)
    Function: (MaxHealth+100)/12 fire damage per tick, increased by (Potency*12.5)% if potency is above 1
    Tick Speed: 40/Volatility seconds
    Duration: 14 ticks, no effect from stability
    Repeated: No effect
    Cure: Scrub in water, no balance cost, may require multiple scrubs

    Petrifying
    Applies: Self (imbibed)
    Function: 10% physical resistance, 4% or 5% electric weakness, -1 move per second, no effect from potency
    Duration: Doesn't wear off, can be stripped, no effect from volatility or stability

    Insufflate
    Applies: Self (thrown)
    Function: Allows breathing underwater much like pear or calcite, except that it isn't lost when you leave the water
    Duration: Doesn't wear off, can be stripped, no effect from volatility or stability

    Devitalisation
    Applies: Room effect in target room (thrown)
    Function: Reduces max health by 5% of its normal value each tick, to a minimum of 50%, full potency doubles the effect, partial potency enhancements give no benefit
    Tick Speed: 40/Volatility seconds
    Duration: 14 ticks, no effect from stability
    Repeated: Refresh
    Cure: You regain 5% every 60 seconds if you're away from the gas (timer starts the last time you were hit by it). If you leave, start to recover, then go back into the gas and the next gas tick fires at the same time as the next recovery tick, both will fire.

    Intoxicant
    Applies: Room effect in the target room (thrown)
    Function: Approximately 10.65% (an estimation, not sure of exact details) of max health in asphyxiation damage per tick, increased by (Potency*10)% if potency is above 1
    Tick Speed: 40/Volatility seconds
    Duration: 14 ticks, no effect from stability
    Repeated: Refresh

    Vaporisation
    Applies: ??? (thrown)
    Function: ??? (doesn't remove water from natural water rooms, possible clears frozen ground, icewalls, flooded rooms?)

    Phosphorous
    Applies: Affliction to all but self in target room? (thrown)
    Function: ??? (incurable trueblind, presumably)
    Duration: ???

    Monoxide
    Applies: ??? Prones self instantly when thrown on ground (thrown)
    Function: ???
    Duration: ???

    Concussive
    Applies: Instantly to all in target room (thrown)
    Function: Throws everyone in a random direction, prevented by obstructions or mass. If thrown at ground, has an unknown chance to bypass mass. Effects of enhancements are unknown.

    Enhancement and destructive are a secret. Also I may not have actually tested them yet.
    [/spoiler]

    Vaporisation, phosphorous, and monoxide will need to be tested on someone else, which is why I have very little information for now. And testing concussive is going to take a lot of gold; I already ran myself out of magnesium, so I'll have to buy hundreds more of that, and hundreds of phials at 50 gold each. Alchemist is probably one of the most expensive classes to fight as now, maybe the most expensive now that knights don't need 100k gold weapons.
    AdetRom
  • KenwayKenway San FranciscoMember Posts: 1,130 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Said this in another thread but will repeat here:
    Knight Two-hander skull fracture increased sip balance effect increases by 1s per fracture, capping at 11s.

    0 | 5s
    1 | 6s
    2 | 7s
    3 | 8s
    4 | 9s
    5 | 10s
    6 | 11s
    7 | 11s

    - Limb Counter - Fracture Relapsing -
    "Honestly, I just love that it counts limbs." - Mizik Corten
    SenaValaria
  • SenaSena Member Posts: 3,957 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited January 2015
    Also worth noting that the reduced movement from petrifying breaks autowalking and shipreturn and other things (at least without any other movement bonuses). And it can't be turned off without logging out and back in (Edit: Makarios just pointed out that imbibing enhancement will remove petrifying).
  • SenaSena Member Posts: 3,957 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited January 2015
    Can any knights with 12 strength and trans skills give me your bashing damage (against a falcon) and balance times? Preferably with non-artefact weapons, but artefact weapons will work too.

    Edit: Seems I overlooked Suladan's post in another thread where he already did this.
  • LeviticusLeviticus Member Posts: 339 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Payne said:
    got the new Tekura Limb damage numbers?
    So I am trying to test this out and I admit I am terrible at math and figuring out problems.

    I have level 3 knuckles. In SCS kick is more. DRS Punch is more. Don't know how much cuz I suck at math. (is over of = percent over 100) 1.66 = kick, 1 = punch??
    Target has 5012 Health

    SCS                                                                                                            
    6 kicks = Break 
    9 punches = break

    Combos:
    3 Kicks, 5 punches = break   (Two Full combos, 1 kick, 1 punch)

    DRS
    Kick= 7 break
    Punch = 7 break

    So Punch = 1, Kick = 1
  • SenaSena Member Posts: 3,957 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Not enough information for me to be sure of anything, really.
  • LeviticusLeviticus Member Posts: 339 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    what information do you need?
  • AmranuAmranu Member Posts: 725 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    More than one target, for one. Damage without knuckles as well.
    SenaAddama
  • AddamaAddama Member Posts: 947 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    I wouldn't go so far as to assume that kicks = punches in DRS based off the feedback from a single target.  Also the limb formula involves a fixed amount plus a scaling amount based on max HP, so you're not going to see a 2:1 difference between 8k health and 4k health.

    Test with as many people as possible and record the results to a spreadsheet.  
    ~Kresslack's obsession~
  • LeviticusLeviticus Member Posts: 339 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    doing so now.
  • SenaSena Member Posts: 3,957 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited January 2015
    Does anyone have a list of what the armour stats were when you could still see the unreduced values (like fullplate was 90/90 instead of 51/51, for example)?
  • LeviticusLeviticus Member Posts: 339 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Attached are my numbers for limb damage. With/Without means with level 3 knuckles, without level 3 knuckles. Still trying to find someone with around 4500 health so I can see the breakpoint in health ranges. Now just to figure out how much to set kick and how much to set punch for svo limbcounter. Any help would be awesome
  • SenaSena Member Posts: 3,957 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I'm still not sure. Someone who knows more about limb damage would be more helpful.


    In other news, testing the effects of armour on denizen damage isn't as simple as I expected. I figured that if a denizen dealt X damage, armour would reduce the damage by Y% of X, with Y being equal to some percentage of the armour stat. Instead, it seems more likely that the denizen deals X±Y, and armour only reduces X, except that doesn't quite fit perfectly.

    For example, I've been testing with the King Stag. Damage ranges from 459 to 741 (600±23.5% fits perfectly, but that could be a coincidence) with no armour/resistance. With roughly 21% armour (it's not possible to see actual stats any more, as far as I know, so 21% isn't exact), damage ranges from 394 to 670. It's possible that those aren't the actual limits (and I'll continue testing to be sure), but the sample sizes are high enough that it's unlikely.

    If it was reducing the total damage, then I'm not sure how to account for the lower end being reduced by so much more than the higher end. On the other hand, if it is something like 600±23.5% or 459+(0 to 282) with armour only applying to the base (the 600 or 459), the higher end is being reduced slightly more than the lower end.

    It could be explained by the damage being 459+(0 to 282) with armour applying to both the base and random portions at different rates (~14% reduction to the base and ~2% reduction to the random portion). But that seems unlikely.
  • ErnamErnam Member Posts: 2,416 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    edited January 2015

    I'm extremely knowledgeable regarding limb damage, its equations, and solving for them.

    If you want to team up and solve for some of the equations, PM me or msg me in game.  If you bring the data, I'll bring the maff skills, and we can get this done without me paying 900cr to class hop twice.


    One thing I would like to FIRMLY dispel is the concept of "break points" (aka: magic numbers).  There are no fixed "break points", until you plug in all applicable variables (meaning that the "break points" are different for every person, vs every person, per weapon, per attack type).  Some systems (like SVO) use "breakpoints", or in some cases, linear (incorrect) equations that solve for break points based on max health.  These are thumb-rules that do end up being accurate within a certain range (usually centered around 4000-5000 health) but can and often do result in being "one hit off", which is exactly one too many in either direction IMO.

    For BMs, you can use Manda (which is 100% accurate).  I'm planning on doing monk (next time I have a trans Tekura character) and am currently in the process of doing the new knight equations.


  • AustereAustere TennesseeMember Posts: 2,346 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Sena said:
    Does anyone have a list of what the armour stats were when you could still see the unreduced values (like fullplate was 90/90 instead of 51/51, for example)?
    @Sena:
    I thought I had scale too, but it looks like I missed it, sorry:

    a suit of polished field plate armour  Cutting%   43;  Blunt%   46
    a suit of steel chain mail                    Cutting%   60;  Blunt%   50
    a suit of ring mail                               Cutting%   43;  Blunt%   30
    Sena
  • TaelTael Member Posts: 1,197 @ - Epic Achaean
    edited January 2015
    Ernam said:
    There are no fixed "break points"
    It's been a while since I was magi, but don't magi use fixed break points for staffstrike (one might even say, magical fixed break points)? I remember it as always being 4 hits, for every person I fought, though I might be misremembering.
  • JosoulJosoul Member Posts: 131 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Austere said:
    Sena said:
    Does anyone have a list of what the armour stats were when you could still see the unreduced values (like fullplate was 90/90 instead of 51/51, for example)?
    @Sena:
    I thought I had scale too, but it looks like I missed it, sorry:

    a suit of polished field plate armour  Cutting%   43;  Blunt%   46
    a suit of steel chain mail                    Cutting%   60;  Blunt%   50
    a suit of ring mail                               Cutting%   43;  Blunt%   30
    Adding the rest: (cutting/blunt %)
    leather: 25/20
    splint: 56/33
    scale: 50/45

    and shields just because:
    buckler: 5/5
    banded: 15/15
    kite: 13/24
    cavalry: 8/8
    tower: 20/34
    SenaAustere
  • ErnamErnam Member Posts: 2,416 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Tael said:
    Ernam said:
    There are no fixed "break points"
    It's been a while since I was magi, but don't magi use fixed break points for staffstrike (one might even say, magical fixed break points)? I remember it as always being 4 hits, for every person I fought, though I might be misremembering.

    I'm fairly certain that that is not true, however I was specifically referring to Tekura in that post.

    Tael
  • NimNim Member Posts: 2,015 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I believe what @Ernam means is that the concept of X HP requiring Y hits is a result of some more complicated formula, rather than how the game mechanic itself works.

    Magi staffstrikes probably just do heavily proportionate damage, possibly even outright doing 25% damage or something like that (probably a bit more, since Achaea seems to have issues with rounding things). I think I remember rumors that seemingly simple limb breaks that usually require four attacks sometimes required a fifth for outliers, as well.

    From what little I know of limb damage, it definitely looked like it worked similar to ordinary damage, with attacks having a proportionate and a fixed damage value. That, or limb HP was calculated in some way based off of actual HP (or perhaps just level and constitution).

    Unfortunately, I never gathered nearly enough data to get close to figuring out the exact values. Even with limb probing, there's not a lot of granularity to figure things out without just testing nearly every HP value you can.
  • TharvisTharvis The Land of Beer and Chocolate!Member Posts: 3,107 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    staffstrike earth/fire/water seems to do 22.25% limb damage with staffstrike air doing 11.125% limb damage (I could be a little bit off here, don't shoot me)
    Aurora says, "Tharvis, why are you always breaking things?!"
    Artemis says, "You are so high maintenance, Tharvis, gosh."
    Tecton says, "It's still your fault, Tharvis."

  • ErnamErnam Member Posts: 2,416 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean

    @Nim it's a bit more complex than that (limb damage equations are rarely linear) - but yes that's the basic idea.  My equations do not focus on number of hits (although that's easy to derive), they track the actual amount of limb damage (in hitpoints) each limb has taken.  There are more applications for this than simply dividing that out for number of hits required to break - and for blademasters and monks specifically, it allows you to reliably switch between different attack types and stances without messing up a sloppy "hit count", without losing a single bit of accuracy.

    Nim
  • EldEld Member Posts: 3,946 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Sena said:
    I'm still not sure. Someone who knows more about limb damage would be more helpful.


    In other news, testing the effects of armour on denizen damage isn't as simple as I expected. I figured that if a denizen dealt X damage, armour would reduce the damage by Y% of X, with Y being equal to some percentage of the armour stat. Instead, it seems more likely that the denizen deals X±Y, and armour only reduces X, except that doesn't quite fit perfectly.

    For example, I've been testing with the King Stag. Damage ranges from 459 to 741 (600±23.5% fits perfectly, but that could be a coincidence) with no armour/resistance. With roughly 21% armour (it's not possible to see actual stats any more, as far as I know, so 21% isn't exact), damage ranges from 394 to 670. It's possible that those aren't the actual limits (and I'll continue testing to be sure), but the sample sizes are high enough that it's unlikely.

    If it was reducing the total damage, then I'm not sure how to account for the lower end being reduced by so much more than the higher end. On the other hand, if it is something like 600±23.5% or 459+(0 to 282) with armour only applying to the base (the 600 or 459), the higher end is being reduced slightly more than the lower end.

    It could be explained by the damage being 459+(0 to 282) with armour applying to both the base and random portions at different rates (~14% reduction to the base and ~2% reduction to the random portion). But that seems unlikely.
    Well, if those are the true limits, then there has to be some scaling to the variable portion, since the ranges with and without armour are different (282 without and 275 with). The only way I see to get the armour only applying to the base, with the variable portion unaffected, would be if the true range of damage values with armour were 6 points larger, and you were missing a few outliers. If, for example, the damage without armour ranges from 459 to 741, and with armour ranges from 391 to 673 (so 3 points extra on either end of the armoured range), you could have 600*(1-.11333) +/- 141, but a reduction of 11.3333% bears no particular relation to the nominal 21%.

    If you have all of the individual damage values stored (rather than just the max and min), it might be interesting to histogram them and see if the distribution looks pretty uniform or peaked around some central value, and maybe try fitting them with a simple Gaussian. Or even just skip the histograms and compare the first few moments of the distributions (mean, variance, skewness) with and without armour.
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