Combat Logs

Athorem

I really need to get involved in combat

Antidas

for the record, @Tesha @Lyr it wouldn't have mattered if you had speed up. Truename strips speed and gives aeon no matter what.

Mizik

Monk vs Occie guide:

The first thing to remember as a monk is you're one of the king bashers. Bashing attack is quick and damaging. Order of importance for ents to kill. Most Occies tend to feel a natural panic when they see you bash an ent, and will just go for the Hang to slow you down - which is a waste. No matter what class, I usually take my time to kill the following:

To stay alive: 

1) The humbug has to die. It's a 2 combo kill. Highlight it latching on and make a huge alert to let you know if it's ever alive. It shouldn't be.

2) Hound. You need your mana, and losing bloodleech acts as a double gremlin when you want to clot. It's 3 combos, just take it out.

3) Sycophant. 3-4 combos. Mana and willpower are key. No mana, no Kai Trance/Transmute. This little guy actually makes a huge difference.

4) Soulmaster. If the Occie is rubbing Death or dusting for Aeon and commanding you around, just take the time to take it out. 3-4 combos will make the fight much more predictable for you.

Before you go for kill:

1) Orb. 2 combos. This one's not a big deal, unless the Occie is smart and flexible moving it from leg to head. Kill, prep. Kill, prep. 

2) Gremlin. 3-4 combos. Obvious reasons.

3) Soulmaster. Hello, again. Anyone who has ever fought an Occie who abuses Worm Seek/Satiation while off balance bugs knows what this is for. We haven't caught them all. Ever been forced to touch map after a take down? Soulmaster is their ultimate trump card. Just take it out.

Defenses:

1) Dodging: dodge meteors. Obvious keep up.

2) Nothing. Turn off everything else. Don't block, don't regenerate. Keep your mana for transmute and trance.

Survival:

If the Occie begins the fight by throwing up Stars, you have 7 seconds before the first one lands. Kill the humbug, then let shield catch every single star. Every time stars go up, do be stupid and let them hit you, your blunt on armour is likely less than 20%. You have Dragon stance, touch shield and wait for the waves to end. If you dodge, your shield won't go down. Just be patient. Meteors are slow and predictable. Last one hits, start the prep. 

If they parry/orb legs, kill the orb and combo leg. Ideally, use curare handaxes to get by parry. If they're mounted, kill it. Plain and simple - they have tentacles and orb, you have to kill the mount. It is impractical to break unparried arms to get past parry, since they're still fully dodging. If you're fighting a Tarot spamming Occie, you'll have Kai for Cripple to get past the pet mount. They'll need 4 working limbs to vault a steed. If they don't shield, just SWK and punches to set off breaks. A smarter opponent will shield, but a smarter monk has Diadem and DRS to hammer and SWK before their opponent regains EQ to revault.

Aside from that, any kill shot that works on any other class will be critical hit super effective on Occultists. They have super poor damage resist. You just have to be patient and eliminate all the things that prevent you from A) surviving, killing. Without the key Domination entities, Occultist becomes very straightforward after take down.

Jacen

Athorem said:

I really need to get involved in combat

It looks so simple and fun here, then when I do it I'm like

WTF

Athorem

That's probably what I'll be saying when I get around to combat

Daslin

@Jacen you aren't the only one. My entire logical brain shuts down, I stop thinking of what will work and I just LOLMASHBUTTONS!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm slowly, VERY slowly learning. I like the curve that monk has to learning it. I just miss my Paladin lolmashdsl.

Nellaundra

Really, @Daslin?  Monk was easy mode to me.  Paladin, on the other hand, is being an absolute bastard.

Daslin

@Nellaundra drop rites, set up venom aliases/macros. Lean on dsl. (Yes, not that easy 1v1... I'm talking raid.)

Also, monk is confusing for me because I completely forget about telepathy/kaido until I'm properly locked, beaten, chained, and whipped.

Hayte

I suck at monk so I have no clue how right Mizik is but he gets a like for laying it out so even a combatard like me can understand

Namino

Monk is only simple if you let it be simple. I'm guilty of this from time to time.

As far as Mizik's explanation, all of that really hinges on the occultist never summoning back their ents. If you kill ent #1, by the time you kill ent #2, ent #1 is back and ruining your plan again.

So it's kill orb, begin kill combo and hope gremlin doesn't ruin everything ever.

Athorem

More tips on monking out for me please

Silas

To be fair, by step 3 you'd be on a totem in Ashtan's defendable so it's all moot.

Sohl

@Namino

Monk is a prep class. Occultist is a momentum class. Everytime an occie has to summon an ent is a +1 for you. 

Mizik

Namino said:

Monk is only simple if you let it be simple. I'm guilty of this from time to time.

As far as Mizik's explanation, all of that really hinges on the occultist never summoning back their ents. If you kill ent #1, by the time you kill ent #2, ent #1 is back and ruining your plan again.

So it's kill orb, begin kill combo and hope gremlin doesn't ruin everything ever.

Yeah, I'm really good at re-killing. Every Occie I've fought ran out of pacts before I ran out of endurance. But, really, they usually just stop summoning if I keep two shotting their ents. I would, too.

But I don't care. I get one combo before they get EQ to reposition their orb, then I two shot it again and repeat. Balance is like 2.4, sometimes I'd just smash out ents for fun.

Mizik

Daslin said:

@Jacen you aren't the only one. My entire logical brain shuts down, I stop thinking of what will work and I just LOLMASHBUTTONS!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm slowly, VERY slowly learning. I like the curve that monk has to learning it. I just miss my Paladin lolmashdsl.

I remember this. What got me out of it is getting used to counting. One limb at a time. If I kept a count in my head it made it very easy to stay focused. A counter really, really helps so that you can pay attention to defense, as well.

Namino

@Sohl

All the prepping in the world is useless when you can't ever get a kill combo because they remount on their chimera, always have two thirds of their orb/sycophant/gremlin active, or so forth, so forth.

The longer the fight goes on, the more things lay in the favor of the occie. Eventually they'll get Aeon in at an inopportune time for you, or at the very least, they'll out mana/willpower you. All the occultist has to do is repeatedly deny you kill combos and make you reprep them off the failure, something that is laughably easy for that class to do.

Daslin

Mizik said:

Daslin said:

@Jacen you aren't the only one. My entire logical brain shuts down, I stop thinking of what will work and I just LOLMASHBUTTONS!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm slowly, VERY slowly learning. I like the curve that monk has to learning it. I just miss my Paladin lolmashdsl.

I remember this. What got me out of it is getting used to counting. One limb at a time. If I kept a count in my head it made it very easy to stay focused. A counter really, really helps so that you can pay attention to defense, as well.

I've got the multiperson vadi limbcounter. I just have to count to break first, and set it. Oooor guess off of health, and I'm -fairly- close on it. Like the last nasty bit of a log of me vs Tvistor, I guessed at 19, and he broke at 18. It's just... hard at times for me to count in my head with it, esp with misses/parries.

Zeon

Write an assess script.

Mizik

@Daslin Oh. If in doubt just fire hits at someone until a limb breaks. If no misses, that's 2 combos you need to pay attention for, just let the counter count :P 

@Namino I know I'm on a whole different level than you, but I always won any ent killing/resummon game. I still do it now as Blademaster!

"The longer the fight goes on, the more things lay in the favor of the occie."

This isn't logical. You should only need one kill combo. Occultist is a trick class - either the tricks work or they don't. Any limb damage wins any time the fight is 'reset'.

Daslin

@Mizik thing is, that counter is set on like, 0 or something. I need to re-read the docs for it. Friggin' thing tells me they broke on each hit. Makes me lol. Won't lie.

@Zeon I would if I was any damn good at coding. Heh.

Namino

Switch back to monk, Mizik, and we'll talk.

Tesha

Please do not change class until I finally beat you as a Blademaster @Mizik it is one of my goals.

Zeon

@daslin test on lots of different people with different levels of health then it's just a matter of creating a chart for it.

ex:

4281 = 15 points

4401 = 15 points

4589 = 15 points

1606 = 16 points, etc, etc

every time you add a new piece of data, check to see if you have anything squished between two other things (4401 in this example) and you can get rid of it, since 4281 <= x <= 4589 encompasses that.

Namino

If you want the actual code for health determined break limits it's sort of ridiculous.

...Like, it has a log function in it.

Much better just to figure out where the brackets between health tiers are per Zeon's suggestion. Of course, depending on your knuckles (if you have knuckles), those have effect on the aforemention logarithmic function.

Terra

Grandue said:

Terra said:

Grandue said:

stuff

That's your idea of bad? Man, I really need to log more often.

No, that wasn't bad at all, I was just pointing out that the 3v1 ganks go both ways.

Goggo said:

Uhm, so you expect to appear in the Isle and shoot meteors while we do nothing? lol and then you are surprised that we jump you..

Hehe +1 to the part of you taking Kard and me at the same time

I was only there for Terra and she knew that. About 90% of the time you guys are too boring to move outside your safe room, so yeah, most of the time I go there knowing it is a possibility to be ganked but 9 times out of 10 I'm only going to be able to stir one of you off your butts to come play.  I'm not complaining and I don't mind when it does happen, I'm just making note that the 3v1s happen both ways.

As a side note, I'm pretty sure the Admins purposely put the safe room at the farthest possibly location in the world from the nearest cloud exit. My god that makes skirmishing with the refugees a bloody chore, every time I hit clouds I've got to make the decision whether or not it is worth continuing the fight and walking the 100 miles back to the island or if I would just rather go NW and afk while I play something else. Seriously, can we PLEASE get a temporary cloud exit closer to the island? /rant

I think there's a distinction between 3v1s in enemy territory and 3v1s in neutral territory, but I'm not going to get too far into that argument.

Though, I also don't disagree with the general comment that both sides gank. Ganking is most certainly not tied to any particular faction. Some individuals are more likely to do it than others, but I wouldn't say one faction or the other does it way more.

That's even more reason to avoid comments like "I don't want to hear any refugee complaining about (blah)" too, though. Keep your criticisms to the people they pertain to, and the situations they pertain to.

Mizik

Man, I've been so good about class changes. Blademaster so fun, though.

Daslin

All this maths.... Brain slowly melting...

I'll look into figuring it out later.

Jules

@Mizik That was a really interesting/helpful post.  Is there a practical difference between orbing ents and killing them?  Also, should knights be trying to kill them like you suggest for monks, or orb them as Tesha did?  Orbing them seemed to work very, very well but certainly provoked a lot of back and forth discussion.  Even reading the back and forth, I'm not qualified to make a judgment on which side was "right" on that account, and I only bring it up to clarify that I'm curious to know which tactic would be more *practical* (not necessarily more sportsmanlike) for a knight and why?

EDIT:  I make a (possibly wrong) assumption that all knights would approach this in the same way, and maybe they do... but maybe there is a real difference in how a Paladin, an Infernal and a Runie should handle it.

Vaehl

I find continuous orbing (with banishment) almost on the level of commanding a serpent to snap you mid fight. (I mean at least a generous amount of orbing with banishment, btw).

Jules

That actually brings up another question.  If you had to make a list of things that are simply "out of bounds" tactics  (sure, they *work*, but shame on you for using them...), what would be on that list?  I'm *sure* there is going to be some dischord on that, so it's probably not worth arguing over, but I'm curious to see what ends up on different people's lists over and over, and especially what ends up on the lists of people who are both really competent/knowledgeable and are known for having a sense of restraint, but who also have the wherewithal not to dismiss a tactic as "lame" out of hand just because it seems like some others are doing so (I'm not completely sure who all of those people are, but I know at least some names I'd be looking for).