Combat Logs

Mizik

Nellaundra said:

So...we're supposed to sit there and DSL minions while your other ents and yourself just prep the hell out of us?  Okay?

I recommend you DSL the Occie.

Don't ever switch class, you'll be in for a rude awakening. Also, what prep?

Lyr

Mizik said:

So...we're supposed to sit there and DSL minions while your other ents and yourself just prep the hell out of us?  Okay?

I recommend you DSL the Occie. Don't ever switch class, you'll be in for a rude awakening. Also, what prep?

Death tarot?

Mizik

Thank you.

Nellaundra

(I legitimately know nothing about how Occultists fight, but I figured that they have -some- prep of some kind)

Iocun

Shunsui said:

So, random thought, and I admit that I'm no genius with balancing things etc. But lets say we delete orb sigils and minion entities entirely. Change banishment so that it will only banish 1-2 specific entities (specified by the riter when they put it down). This would give devotionists an advantage without completely negating an entire skillset, but would force them to have to pick and choose which entities they don't want to deal with.

Just for shits and giggles, allow Golgotha as a possible banishment target to block pit (maybe not use up the pact if it's blocked since that's a lot of karma)

Faction Good shouldn't be the only one that can do anything against area-wide doppies though. Yeah, you can bash them to death, but that's much too slow if there's a quick assault from multiple occultists.

Mizik

Nellaundra said:

(I legitimately know nothing about how Occultists fight, but I figured that they have -some- prep of some kind)

I know.

Aktillum

Monkshood > Orb sigil

Kellonius

In my opinion, there is nothing wrong with the way banishment works in its current functionality. It does not kill entities with the minion present, it does not kill all of the entities immediately when the minion is killed, it also has an associated cost and is immobile. Really, in an Occultist Vs Devotionist fight, the determining factor is willingness to give up your advantage. Occultists can leave the room, and force the devotionist to follow, and I dont think the devotionist will lay down banishment over and over is the Occultist just keeps moving. If the devotionist does, then he or she will run out of devotion very quickly. The Occultist can always stay and fight, and continuously resummon the minion when its orbed/killed, and then determine if he or she wants to stick around once all of the pacts are depleted, but I dont think that will happen. Really, the Occultist has the advantage of choice in this situation.

To be fair though, I dont know why anyone would use banishment in a 1v1 fight anyway, as disloyalty is far more effective if you can keep it stuck. I would like to see banishment changed in some way to make it more viable for combat. Make banishment block the effects of a minion at random, per tick(I hope that made sense), or just increase the timer on it to make it a little less lethal, and hopefully Occultists will stick around more. What I prefer is for banishment to be removed completely and replaced with an offense rite along the same lines as infestation, but I dont think that will ever happen.

Goggo

Kellonius said:

I dont know why anyone would use banishment in a 1v1 fight anyway, as disloyalty is far more effective if you can keep it stuck

As a Paladin yep. As a Priest, orb all the way since Angel disloyalty is too random and too easy to cure.

Silas

Nice moustache, @Kellonius.

Kellonius

Goggo said:

Kellonius said:

I dont know why anyone would use banishment in a 1v1 fight anyway, as disloyalty is far more effective if you can keep it stuck

As a Paladin yep. As a Priest, orb all the way since Angel disloyalty is too random and too easy to cure.

Priest can be pretty effective using a weapon besides maces for afflicting purposes, and can be used alongside chasten, just FYI. Disloyalty becomes a little easier to stick then.

Kellonius

Silas said:

Nice moustache, @Kellonius.

 Best I could do: https://fbcdn-photos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/11464_176719797992_6707046_n.jpg

Mizik

Kellonius said:

it does not kill all of the entities immediately when the minion is killed, it also has an associated cost and is immobile. Really, in an Occultist Vs Devotionist fight, the determining factor is willingness to give up your advantage. Occultists can leave the room, and force the devotionist to follow, and I dont think the devotionist will lay down banishment over and over is the Occultist just keeps moving. If the devotionist does, then he or she will run out of devotion very quickly. The Occultist can always stay and fight, and continuously resummon the minion when its orbed/killed, and then determine if he or she wants to stick around once all of the pacts are depleted, but I dont think that will happen. Really, the Occultist has the advantage of choice in this situation.

I see you understand the problem. "If the Devotionist uses Banishment, then it's not worth fighting." is not an acceptable status. The paragraph above literally translates into "Occultists shouldn't fight in Banishment."

Out of curiosity, how quickly will a Devotionist run out of Devotion if he/she insists on having Banishment. How many rooms would the Occultist have to throw monolith/tumble out of Piety?

Either way, you should look up the word 'advantage' in the dictionary.

Namino

@Mizik

 

What I think is being said there is that you shouldn't complain about a mechanism that you willingly walk into and can (semi-easily) walk out of. It's not "an occultist can't fight in Banishment", it's "If you are an Occultist who cannot handle banishment, then throw monolith and tumble out".

If I was a monk that relied totally on JPKing, and my opponent was sitting on a water room, then I sure as heck wouldn't fight him there. My options would be learning how to kill without JPKing (IE, occultist learning to kill without constant reliable entity support), or never fighting someone who was flooding rooms or standing in a lake (IE, occultist disengaging on banishment).

But hey. I'm not an occultist, and as we all know, only occultists and their allies can give unbiased assessments of occultist abilities.

Kellonius

Mizik said:

Kellonius said:

it does not kill all of the entities immediately when the minion is killed, it also has an associated cost and is immobile. Really, in an Occultist Vs Devotionist fight, the determining factor is willingness to give up your advantage. Occultists can leave the room, and force the devotionist to follow, and I dont think the devotionist will lay down banishment over and over is the Occultist just keeps moving. If the devotionist does, then he or she will run out of devotion very quickly. The Occultist can always stay and fight, and continuously resummon the minion when its orbed/killed, and then determine if he or she wants to stick around once all of the pacts are depleted, but I dont think that will happen. Really, the Occultist has the advantage of choice in this situation.

I see you understand the problem. "If the Devotionist uses Banishment, then it's not worth fighting." is not an acceptable status. The paragraph above literally translates into "Occultists shouldn't fight in Banishment."

Out of curiosity, how quickly will a Devotionist run out of Devotion if he/she insists on having Banishment. How many rooms would the Occultist have to throw monolith/tumble out of Piety?

Either way, you should look up the word 'advantage' in the dictionary.

I dont understand your point at the end about the word "advantage." In the current scenario, one person will always have an advantage over the other, even its just by the simple choice of where to fight.

Banishment in itself is not very expensive. 450 devotion, out of 65000. The expensive part comes into play when the Occultist moves rooms and the devotionist has to replace all of his or her rites(I think Paladins can move a few with fervour? Not sure). Revit is 360, Piety is 600, Healing is 360, Cleansing is 300, Demons is 360, for a grand total(including banishment) of 2430. Now, that said, I'm not sure about Paladins and Fervour. I think that it moves rites at random for a devotion cost? I dont know for sure. That all being said, a devotionist is never at 100% devotion. Bliss is 1k per use, and we have to use it multiple times to get all of our defences. Inspiration is 1500 and that is something that will generally be put back up every time it goes down. This isn't even mentioning that devotionists use things like hell-sight, dazzle and inquisition often in PVP, and that drains devotion rather quickly too. So I think you can see how quickly all of this adds up, especially with no real way to regain devotion. Immolating corpses and the rite of prayer are jokes. How many rooms total? I suppose it depends on how far the devotionist is willing to go.

I think it would be agreeable to change banishment so that both parties gain something from this.

Sena

Mizik said:

Out of curiosity, how quickly will a Devotionist run out of Devotion if he/she insists on having Banishment. How many rooms would the Occultist have to throw monolith/tumble out of Piety?

This depends on how much they're using for other things, but banishment costs 450 out of a max of 65000, so about 0.7% devotion per room (assuming they don't put up other rites).

Nellaundra

If nothing else, a Devotionist is likely to at least put up Cleansing, Demons, and Banishment.

Also re: Fervour.  It's a method of re-applying one of three rites, but it costs as much as putting them down fresh.  It's just slightly faster.

Syntax:
   DSL/RSL/RAZE <target>
   PERFORM RITE OF <demons/healing/cleansing>

You have gained such control over your devotion that you are now able to perform certain rites
immediately after doubleslashing, razeslashing, or razing your opponent. A devotion ability
particular to the Paladin class.

Sohl

I don't have a problem with banishment. It's fine in its current incarnation, being mostly a strong counter to dopplegangers, which is how it should be. Orb sigils are the problem. 

Namino said:

 (IE, occultist learning to kill without constant reliable entity support)

Are you really suggesting occultists should just give up on being able to use an entire skill? And comparing it to not being able to JPK, a single ability out of an entire skill to support this? 

Tvistor

Occultists were 100% fine and needed buffing (because they were super underpowered) when they were on my team, but now that I'm against them it seems clear they should be nerfed into oblivion (pun intended).

Arador

That's because most of Mhaldor's "Look, I can be Occie now" crowd had no real idea how the class worked and though it was just 1. Sic ents on target 2. Fling Aeon 3. Win

I agree on orb however. While I see its place in Raids, in 1v1 it is just a pain for both parties.

I am sure most people would give up orb sigils for a slight rebalance of Domination. Orb entity is completely overpowered against limb breakers for example.

Jarrod

I think it's funny that people are justifying a purchasable item that's extraordinarily easy to obtain countering an entire skill set of a specific class.

What if cube sigil wasn't stopped by reverb/partita?

What if cube sigils destroyed rites in the room regularly?

What if orbs could send forest ents back to the forest?

In any of the above situations, people would complain heavily, and nobody would say something like 'You should just learn to fight without Crystalism/Harmonics/Devotion/Woodlore'. Stupid people making stupid arguments are hilarious, at least.

Akia

Arador said:

That's because most of Mhaldor's "Look, I can be Occie now" crowd had no real idea how the class worked and though it was just 1. Sic ents on target 2. Fling Aeon 3. Win I agree on orb however. While I see its place in Raids, in 1v1 it is just a pain for both parties. I am sure most people would give up orb sigils for a slight rebalance of Domination. Orb entity is completely overpowered against limb breakers for example.

Everyone seems to think they could be "THE BEST OCCIE EVER" if they just had the chance (because it's so easy), but I'd say 90% of occultists effectiveness actually comes from the ignorance and stupidity of your opponent, and not the actual skill of the occultist themselves.

Use occultist against someone who actually knows how they work and you'll be sorely disappointed.

Vadimuses

It's not only ignorance and stupidity, but some really good mechanics behind it as well. 

At any rate, the talk of Occultists today is no different from years ago when gremlins were superspeed, Pit was on viagra, AF (and bw) weren't actively strippable and etc. Nothing constructive is happening, so nothing to add to this discussion...

The justification for the lame gank is amusing though. Keep softfocus up next time! As long as you don't end up in a killroom...

Jarrod

If the success of occies isn't based off enemy ignorance and stupidity, why did you code in a system to block player commands in SVO?

Vadimuses

It's not only ignorance and stupidity

Does a bigger font help you understand better?

Iocun

Kellonius said:

Priest can be pretty effective using a weapon besides maces for afflicting purposes, and can be used alongside chasten, just FYI. Disloyalty becomes a little easier to stick then.

An occultist who hangedmans frequently (which is pretty much all of them) won't easily get stuck with disloyalty though.

Jarrod said:

I think it's funny that people are justifying a purchasable item that's extraordinarily easy to obtain countering an entire skill set of a specific class.

What if cube sigil wasn't stopped by reverb/partita?

What if cube sigils destroyed rites in the room regularly?

What if orbs could send forest ents back to the forest?

In any of the above situations, people would complain heavily, and nobody would say something like 'You should just learn to fight without Crystalism/Harmonics/Devotion/Woodlore'. Stupid people making stupid arguments are hilarious, at least.

Hey, sileris stops my entire venoms skill and bayberry my entire hypnosis skill!

As for occultist success depending entirely on opponent stupidity and ignorance... well, depends on where you set the border for what constitutes stupidity and ignorance. Sure, if you know all about combat and are able to put this knowledge into practice you won't die. You also won't die to many other classes though if your defensive knowledge is top-notch, but granted: occultist (at least unartied) tends more strongly in that direction than many other classes. Occultists can however kill you quite easily if you make a quick mistake at the wrong time or get a lag burst. Just like when defending against, say, vivisect, aeon curing doesn't leave terribly much room for errors or lag if the occultist has a fast weapon and the speed of death tarot makes it a very potent way of punishing certain mistakes. Vivisect may leave even less room for error, but it also takes a prep.

Jarrod

No, because saying 'mechanics' and not elaborating in the least means you just posted to say nothing.

Jarrod

Iocun said:

Kellonius said:

Priest can be pretty effective using a weapon besides maces for afflicting purposes, and can be used alongside chasten, just FYI. Disloyalty becomes a little easier to stick then.

An occultist who hangedmans frequently (which is pretty much all of them) won't easily get stuck with disloyalty though.

Jarrod said:

I think it's funny that people are justifying a purchasable item that's extraordinarily easy to obtain countering an entire skill set of a specific class.

What if cube sigil wasn't stopped by reverb/partita?

What if cube sigils destroyed rites in the room regularly?

What if orbs could send forest ents back to the forest?

In any of the above situations, people would complain heavily, and nobody would say something like 'You should just learn to fight without Crystalism/Harmonics/Devotion/Woodlore'. Stupid people making stupid arguments are hilarious, at least.

Hey, sileris stops my entire venoms skill and bayberry my entire hypnosis skill!

Agreed, remove sileris and blindness!

Nellaundra

Hell, let's remove classes!  Pick whichever three skillsets you want and go wild!

Tvistor

Arador's falcon stripped his own mindseye when we sparred and I wanted to cry bitter tears of serpentRage.