Combat Logs

Makarios

@Antonius:
I would not be against tying something like that to mastery. Feel free to classlead something along those lines.

Mizik

Wow @Antonius. If you don't classlead that I will.

Dunn

That blew my fucking mind. Mastery causing impale to do torso damage. Damn. 

Anedhel

Not gonna lie, Antonius is kinda my hero :O

Aerek

Having also suggested the Impale-dealing-torso damage bit in the past, I'd support it, but...

How would one survive the DWC Infernal Vivi/DSB fork? Restoring  to stop Vivisect prevents tumble, so if the Impale gives torso damage, you're kinda guaranteed death either way.

Anedhel

Infernal strength is lower than the other Knights', isn't it? Without the +2 from inspiration or the Runeblade boost, I really doubt most of 'em can one-shot you (15 base + 1 trait + 3 gauntlets + 2 fury = 21, still not a one-shot, though it's close); unless they pre-damage you a fair bit, if they try to get fancy and hit another limb in there, it gives you time to sip up and be full for the DSB (which is what I've seen happen to me from most Infernals I recall fighting), they'll probably not get you.

ETA: Unless I'm misremembering and there's another strength boost in there!

Dunn

Aerek said:

Having also suggested the Impale-dealing-torso damage bit in the past, I'd support it, but...

How would one survive the DWC Infernal Vivi/DSB fork? Restoring  to stop Vivisect prevents tumble, so if the Impale gives torso damage, you're kinda guaranteed death either way.

If they prepped your torso and DSL broke it before impale after restore, what's the difference? It's just saving them a balance that I'm sure is still occurring while target is off Eq from restore, which makes it largely inconsequential. 

Break break restore DSL impale

vs

break break restore impale 

the impale is occurring while they're off EQ either way. I think you'd eat a DSB regardless. 

TBH with how easy it is to avoid Vivi, I don't think it matters at all. 

Aerek

In a leg, leg, (Restore), Impale, you still have to Impale before the first leg fixes to secure the DSB or they'll writhe off; you can't break torso, then Impale. Currently, to land a killing DSB post-Restore, they have to break torso before the legs, which gives you the opportunity to apply to it first, prolonging your prone time but avoiding both the Vivsect and the DSB. It's a tough situation and the Infernal can abuse it, but the Impale actually breaking the torso removes the defense against it and makes one or the other guaranteed.

DSB doesn't have to be a true "one shot" to kill, because you're never at full health when it lands. Even 17 STR is enough for lethal disembowels given pre-damage, damage from the leg breaks and Impale themselves, and Deathaura/falcon passive damage. I've been DSB'ing folks to death with 18 STR for years, even before the 10% Lagua buff, so any Infernal with any level of STR artefacts would be extremely, unavoidably lethal if they were good at all. (Even if you manage to survive it, you'll still be off-EQ and prone long enough for the inevitable Taint/Arc.)

Dunn

I still don't find it problematic given the state of infernal, but my mind would change if Vivi were made more difficult to avoid. I see what you're saying in that you are essentially forced to just eat it in that scenario, though. 

Torso arm leg restore impale DSB tho. We're neglecting that it's hidden. You say that you could apply to torso before the limb breaks, but that likely is a bad idea in the sense that it'll help you dodge a torso DSB, but you're still letting two limbs be level 2 for ~3s vs infernal and you're stuck. I would rather puff out my chest and hope to face tank the DSB than chance a Vivi. 

Thats a problem for future Makarios. 

Armali

Echoing what Aerek said.

I'm not even sure preapply would work -- with torso impale damage, I can't think of a general way in which a class can ensure a pre-apply lands between impale and DSB without opening yourself up to a vivisect.

They could also finish you off with a taint/untargeted arc.

Keorin

Antonius said:
Could also give it to two-handed, I suppose, and that alleviates all of the concerns I mentioned above.

I'd be a bit concerned about giving it to 2h given the power of their momentum already. Currently, if you can keep your health high enough somehow, or otherwise respond after the dsb well enough, then you have some chance of surviving 2h's basic setup. If the impale breaks, then 4 leg fracs is basically a hugely difficult to prevent death, given how much damage the spec already deals and their access to brain if you apply to torso on the break or try to respond in a fashion similar to that. 

With the speed of their prep, 2h also has pretty strong abilities to punish a torso apply in the room (leg break, upset, brain/overhand), and parry isn't even an issue if they need to prep the torso again, unlike dwc. Seems like it would be overkill to me, at least.

Mizik

Hm.

How are you preventing the DSB otherwise?

Dunn

If you tie the torso damage to mastery then that won't be an issue. DWC only. 

Mizik

I mean just pretend it's a Paladin or Runewarden. You restore off the Vivisect and you're just fighting Knight skills. 

I don't see any difference. 

Cooper

You can't break leg/break leg/break torso/impale/dsb. They'll writhe off (side note you can writhe while off eq in case anyone forgot).

So if it's break leg/break leg(restore)/impale(torso damage now)/dsb they get a 100% guaranteed torso dsb because you can't tumble against an Infernal.

I'm completely fine with that, though, because if you prep 3 limbs before the other person kills you, you deserve the win. If you know you're prepped and haven't killed them, you can always leave like you have to do vs. a Jester/Shaman with fashions, Occultist, Serpent, etc. Vivisect is a non-issue at top tier, it just serves as a 'you can't tumble against me' for Infernals to kill those people. Low and mid tier aren't going to have the code in their system to avoid vivisect, or know how to manual it if they are a code scrub like me.

Armali

Three limbs isn't an extraordinary amount to prep, and slow prep makes obtaining any such prep a fairly trivial proposition. I don't think giving Infernal a nearly 100% guaranteed finisher setup is a good idea that doesn't rely on any sort of timing attack. Most of the setup avoidance strats like tumble and pre-apply fail against Infernal, and will still work on the other classes that can prep, so you have an unbeatable advantage in that there's no way to avoid your setups, but you can almost always get out of someone else's.

For example, a two leg torso SnB setup can still be survived with tricky fake applies and good limb counting to preapply. You might eat two dry dsbs, but you're not going to eat a torso dsb. A one limb torso SnB set up can be beaten/survived with pre-apply, turtling on a non-leg break, or just immediately tumbling (this assumes no break timing to attack).

A comparison to pure momentum classes is disingenuous -- the time you need to flee to reset limbs is far more than the time you need to flee to reset momentum classes (minute tops for, say, 2h health damage momentum as opposed to 3 mins for limb reset). Vodun strats can also be mitigated by diligent diagnose/room prepped tumble/looping salves in case of command - I've seen Atalkez survive Amranu's setups over and over.

Cooper

3 limbs is 38.5 seconds with level 3 arties/43.5 without, ignoring any hinder, rebounding, shield, or parry that you have to deal with. In reality it's 4 limbs because pretty much everyone will restore out of the two limb vivisect. So you're looking more at 58 seconds unartied (numbers assumed 14 hits/7 dsls per limb).

Pretty much every other class in the game will get multiple kill attempts off on you during that time.

The kill is only guaranteed if the impale change goes through, you don't kill the Infernal in a minute, you don't reset your own prepped limbs via hitting rebounding, you don't shield/rebounding/leave the room/hinder them/tank their attempt to pre-damage you so their less than average strength dsb will kill you.

If that change happens, you'll have to put Infernal on a timer just like you do other classes.

Mizik

Let's roll with it and adjust as we encounter it.

No need to keep all in Suffering because Exxia might be difficult to defend against for 1-2 characters who theorize about DSB defense.

Kiet

Prep time is not a good balancing factor when you can just hit one limb, run away, and repeat forever.

Kenway

All that adding impale damage to torso would do to 2h is make torso dsbs possible against people who pay attention to torso (armalis the only person ive fought who applies torso) give 2h impale torso damage and swap head and torso passive effects seems like itd even out pretty well to me. 

Kenway

Kenway said:

All that adding impale damage to torso would do to 2h is make torso dsbs possible against people who pay attention to torso (armalis the only person ive fought who applies torso) give 2h impale torso damage and swap head and torso passive effects seems like itd even out pretty well to me. 

Would also encourage limb prep which to me seems to be a largely untouched portion of 2h. Which you cant really blame cause of the kinda insane scaling artie weapons give you. But i think the added feeling of finesse would be good for the spec and bring the skill ceiling on 2h a bit higher so that maybe artie scaling could get looked at a bit. But of course thats all just my opinion

Finkle

Kenway said:

All that adding impale damage to torso would do to 2h is make torso dsbs possible against people who pay attention to torso (armalis the only person ive fought who applies torso) give 2h impale torso damage and swap head and torso passive effects seems like itd even out pretty well to me. 

I applied on torso too =(

I just left room when I did it

Kenway

Finkle said:

Kenway said:

All that adding impale damage to torso would do to 2h is make torso dsbs possible against people who pay attention to torso (armalis the only person ive fought who applies torso) give 2h impale torso damage and swap head and torso passive effects seems like itd even out pretty well to me. 

I applied on torso too =(

I just left room when I did it

I don't think I've fought you as 2h?

Keorin

Cooper said:

3 limbs is 38.5 seconds with level 3 arties/43.5 without, ignoring any hinder, rebounding, shield, or parry that you have to deal with. In reality it's 4 limbs because pretty much everyone will restore out of the two limb vivisect. So you're looking more at 58 seconds unartied (numbers assumed 14 hits/7 dsls per limb).

I feel like it should be noted that SnB has similar lengths of prep for its two limb setup, and certainly doesn't get a mechanically almost guaranteed kill at the end.

Cooper

Keorin said:

Cooper said:

3 limbs is 38.5 seconds with level 3 arties/43.5 without, ignoring any hinder, rebounding, shield, or parry that you have to deal with. In reality it's 4 limbs because pretty much everyone will restore out of the two limb vivisect. So you're looking more at 58 seconds unartied (numbers assumed 14 hits/7 dsls per limb).

I feel like it should be noted that SnB has similar lengths of prep for its two limb setup, and certainly doesn't get a mechanically almost guaranteed kill at the end.

S&B (ignoring tumble, cause fuck tumble) actually does! With proper ferocity usage, you can break leg/trip, break torso, shield stun/impale, disembowel.

Keorin

Right, but smart use of fake applying, skipping the legs and applying to the torso, or against many people, probably just applying to the torso on the leg break, are all things that open up defensive options. Vivisect punishes that sort of defensive tactic hard, without even any additional prep work

Aerek

S&B's flexibility due to only needing 1 leg to DSB opens up a variety of ways to approach and guarantee torso damage. Even tumble can be countered by a proper S&B setup unless you have Piety/GH to hold them. Applying to torso on leg break is highly abusable, will only work once agaisnt a good one. Vivisect has always had absurbly good synergy with DSL, that much is true, but S&B's a bad analogy because it can be almost as guaranteed.

Keorin

Well yeah, just straight up applying to torso on the leg break isn't a great idea, that's why I gave it a caveat. I'll concede that I'm likely incorrect based on other people being far more familiar with the class then I am, but I'm not sure how, when using a two-limb setup, a SnB knight could guarantee torso damage against someone who fake applies on the leg break. I'm sure after that's done once, there's plenty that can be done to prepare for that, but pretending for a moment that I'm not horribly missing something, it still seems like that would put the person trying to defend in a much better position then against a DWC infernal where a torso apply means death.

Atalkez

Couple of fights with Jhui, always solid

https://ada-young.appspot.com/pastebin/6be5abf9

https://ada-young.appspot.com/pastebin/4af4bd39

https://ada-young.appspot.com/pastebin/caeb8963

Mizik

My favorite part is where that BBT does 6 million damage.