Combat Logs

Kiet

Siren is the best int race for a reason!

Anedhel

The boobs, amirite?

Kalithea

Anedhel said:

The boobs, amirite?

EYES ARE UP HERE

Borran

Borran said:

A little Sylvan vs. Sentinel action. Couldn't post the whole fight but Tereil almost dismembered me once (lucky paralysis hit), and then almost petrified me once (lucky panacea tick), but I got him!

https://ada-young.appspot.com/pastebin/b440672b

Didn't even notice he hit rebounding until now.  And some of my jutsu echoes aren't working!

Hosko

Kenway said:

Nevermind, found it!

SnB Focus lock. RNGesus loves me.
https://ada-young.appspot.com/pastebin/6673fa16

That was ridiculous @Kenway
I never even had a chance.

Kasa

https://ada-young.appspot.com/pastebin/ceecfdea
Retaliationstrike needs nerfs

Tzond

I'd like to make a humble request for some bard logs if anyone has some to share, so that I can 'git gud'. Also if you want to give a brief run-down of what it is you're doing that'd be nice, too, but mostly just icing on the cake.

@Dochitha @notRyzethanymore @anyandallbards

Ahmet

Tzond said:

I'd like to make a humble request for some bard logs if anyone has some to share, so that I can 'git gud'. Also if you want to give a brief run-down of what it is you're doing that'd be nice, too, but mostly just icing on the cake.

@Dochitha @notRyzethanymore @anyandallbards

If you -really- want a bard log, I suppose I could oblige.

http://pastebin.com/dCHJFGys

At least, that's what it feels like any time I attempt to kill someone.

Atalkez

https://ada-young.appspot.com/pastebin/2a037f4f

Fighting an optimized monk really feels like there's no point in even trying.

Jhui

Atalkez said:

https://ada-young.appspot.com/pastebin/2a037f4f

Fighting an optimized monk really feels like there's no point in even trying.

poor monks aren't hindering your attacks and have no passive/active healing once you've vernalius'd.  They also hinder themselves a bit if they rebound and you hit your own limbs.

I'd rather tumble out of piety right there or into runes or over a trap or have active healing/passive healing/hinder to stop the affliction momentum, but us monks will take what we can use on our route to slow prep.

Also, nothing optimized there.  I just crippled and crippled again 5 seconds later and again 5 seconds later.

Atalkez

Jhui said:

Atalkez said:

https://ada-young.appspot.com/pastebin/2a037f4f

Fighting an optimized monk really feels like there's no point in even trying.

poor monks aren't hindering your attacks and have no passive/active healing once you've vernalius'd.  They also hinder themselves a bit if they rebound and you hit your own limbs.

I'd rather tumble out of piety right there or into runes or over a trap or have active healing/passive healing/hinder to stop the affliction momentum, but us monks will take what we can use on our route to slow prep.

Also, nothing optimized there.  I just crippled and crippled again 5 seconds later and again 5 seconds later.

Everything else is optimized, was my point. It's one thing to have to defend against the on-point offense, it's another thing entirely to have to deal with ridiculous defense on top of everything else.

Tumbling doesn't give you a full 3 seconds of me not hitting you for curing. I'm still wailing on you the entire time. Wunjo/Nairait, sure, but that's not the same level of hinder as 2 cripples. Passive healing I can stop with voyria, not really an issue there either. 

Anedhel

Kai cripple, mind throw while prone, and mind batter/disrupt while prone are all super super dumb, too  

Atalkez

Can't disrupt while prone, iirc.

Keorin

Mind throw while impale doesn't really have a reason to exist, I feel like. There are already ways to defend against DSB setups, and monk has tools to make them even stronger. A get out of jail free card with pretty much no counter play available (working a head break into knight finishers tends not to be viable at all) just doesn't need to exist.

Jovolo

Depends what Knight class you are. I'd say it's viable to work in a head break in your finisher if you're SnB or DWC, it's probably pretty easy as DWB considering Pulp is based around broken+mangledhead... So that leaves 2h? 

Armali

I heard that one mending break to an arm will stop Kaido. Is that true?

Keorin

Jovolo said:

Depends what Knight class you are. I'd say it's viable to work in a head break in your finisher if you're SnB or DWC, it's probably pretty easy as DWB considering Pulp is based around broken+mangledhead... So that leaves 2h? 

DWB doesn't really care either, since they don't have to impale. Snb could do it if you slipped the torso break in ahead of time, or if you broke a second leg, both of which require substantially more prep on a class with generally slow prep times. DWC seems like it would have a hard time, if I understand their dsb executions correctly. So yeah, potentially viable, I suppose. I should have put it differently then I did.

Either way, it's putting a pretty substantial burden on the knight while the throw itself doesn't require anything particularly complex. I don't know, I just don't think that monk needs something like three ways to interrupt the disembowel from prone. At least batter requires some timing.

And yeah, @Armali, that should be correct, at least for heal/cripple.

Armali

If that's the case, then it looks like Atalkez had an opportunity when he did curare drive to do epteth / w/e and seal off the focus lock.

Antonius

As dual cutting, you'd have to do arm, leg, leg, head in order to have a head break and both legs still damaged at the point of impale, and I'm not sure that's even feasible to do with forged scimitars. That gives them a crazy amount of time to prepare to tumble and apply restoration to torso (disembowel without torso damage isn't exactly scary unless you're fighting two-handed where you're going to be low on health already) since you'd have to do that before the rest of the breaks.

Sword and shield could work a head break in, but they'd have to do torso first as well and would still be susceptible to prone kai cripple ruining the timing. They could potentially do an arm first to prevent cripple, but then you're needing to prep four bodyparts which takes absolutely ages. The Monk would probably get about ten chances to kill you off of double breaks before you were ready to try for a disembowel once.

Dual blunt has a pretty easy time handling both Kaido and Telepathy due to the way Pulp setups work and the ability to damage two bodyparts simultaneously, but a very well timed disrupt or batter might cause problems with the timing.

I think two handed can, in theory, devastate with 6+ torntendons, break head, then impale. They'd essentially be sacrificing their ability to get more than one disembowel to prevent mind throw, so they'd really need to make the one they do get count, which also means breaking torso first.

Keorin

The rule of thumb as I've always heard it is that any class should be able to have absolute defense if played properly, though. In general, every kill has ways to get around it, and defense wins out over offense.

In theory, monk's abilities give it active bursts of hinder and defense as a tradeoff for their complete lack of built in hinder and defense. If they were put on a timer, then the class would have to be balanced around -not- having them, with them acting as fundamentally unnecessary options.

Jovolo

We need to be careful about maintaining the former side in the dichotomy of Achaean combat balance between 100% perfectly executed defence being able to prevent all kills (an emphasis on capitalising on mistakes in curing) vs 100% perfectly executed offence being able to bypass all defence (emphasis on momentum and who can pull off their strategy the quickest). The former has pretty much always been the staple to strive for in the 10 years I've played but with Alchemist and Occultist (and I don't know what other classes as I've only been active again for a week) we are slipping towards the latter. Scary.

Jhui

Can't numb while prone anymore

ninja where did makarios post go

Dunn

What's optimized about Jhui putting his cheeto dust and saliva soaked fingers on his cripple macro? 

For real, man. Make the dog lick them clean or something. 

Also, Jhui ~= a regular monk. Think Bruce Lee vs a local ten year old blue belt. 

Makarios

hmm, don't really need arm leg leg head for dual cutting I'd say. Arm leg (delph/delph) leg(epteth/epteth) should be enough, since you can't cripple while impaled anymore. I haven't checked the numbers to verify, but I am pretty confident that should do the trick off the top of my head. You could probably get away with just leg leg if you have a fast enough dsl (sub 2s). Of course, doing just leg leg leaves them around a 2 second window to cripple in, so that'd probably come down to how on the ball you think the person you're fighting is. But I think this one comes down to batter: I personally don't think its worth breaking head just to stop batter, but a big part of that is because timing the stun can be fairly tricky, so you have a very good chance of it not affecting you (particularly if you've also broke the arm first, giving you a lot of leeway).

Of course, monk is probably the class best placed to tank disembowel due to numb, but that's another beast entirely. You can also just shield in the case when you could numb, which is probably just as optimal at the end of the day (if less rage inducing, and tears must be factored, naturally).

Like Armali mentioned, you could have just epteth'd in your log and basically sealed the fight, @Atalkez. I'd say snb is probably one of the best placed to ruin monks day, due to the ability to lock down both kaido and telepathy hinders as part of your kill sequence. You'll get that fiend next time!

@Jovolo: definitely agree. Its a very fine line these days because of the advance of automation, but the former case is definitely the goal.

@Jhui: can't edit on these forums, I just cheat delete/repost.

Antonius

Makarios said:

hmm, don't really need arm leg leg head for dual cutting I'd say. Arm leg (delph/delph) leg(epteth/epteth) should be enough, since you can't cripple while impaled anymore. I haven't checked the numbers to verify, but I am pretty confident that should do the trick off the top of my head. You could probably get away with just leg leg if you have a fast enough dsl (sub 2s). Of course, doing just leg leg leaves them around a 2 second window to cripple in, so that'd probably come down to how on the ball you think the person you're fighting is. But I think this one comes down to batter: I personally don't think its worth breaking head just to stop batter, but a big part of that is because timing the stun can be fairly tricky, so you have a very good chance of it not affecting you (particularly if you've also broke the arm first, giving you a lot of leeway).

The discussion was regarding using a head break to prevent them from mind throwing while impaled (which totally messes up the disembowel attempt), so breaking head does feel kind of necessary, and the only way you can order the breaks is arm leg leg head in that case. If you're happy to gamble on them not having a mind lock to throw or that they just don't do it, then sure, you can skip it entirely.

Exelethril

Tzond said:

I'd like to make a humble request for some bard logs if anyone has some to share, so that I can 'git gud'. Also if you want to give a brief run-down of what it is you're doing that'd be nice, too, but mostly just icing on the cake.

@Dochitha @notRyzethanymore @anyandallbards

• https://ada-young.appspot.com/pastebin/4c4a6010
• https://ada-young.appspot.com/pastebin/8138af22f

Also, random question - why are paladins allowed to hellsight/targeted arc after the vernalius change?

Dunn

You should see that shit vs priest/paladin. Kelp stack for days into hellsight. Grosssssss. Almost have to play Mage just to boil out of it. 

Cynlael

No fitness, no rebounding, no shielding, not even fighting back.

Not really the greatest demonstration of bard. Just saying, otherwise a 10/10 Ernam-style log.

Dunn

I tried unartied rapier bard and it felt okay in canticle. 
The aff rate is great, but there's definitely better choices. 

Thanks, ObaMakarios. 

Exelethril

I just don't see the balance when you're essentially adding a free kelp aff + hellsight when stacking kelp is trivial after the vernalius change.

Also, lol @ "Ernam-style" log. That guy wanted a basic idea of what bard combat is like, that's one.