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Comments
And no, he wanted logs he could learn from. Your log shows literally nothing except that you could kill someone that might as well be dc'd. Ergo, Ernam-style log. If you saw the logs he showed 'demonstrating' Godzilla, you'd get the reference.
I personally hard swap to kelp and go fishing for asthma on hellsight/asthma.
ETA: Throwing in a break you can shield right after (head, one arm) in there before your finishers is kinda useless, since, y'know. They can just shield. Or fly.
ETA2: Re: Hellsight + arc- it's strong, no lying there. Paladin should have you behind on herb affs anyways, by the time you get hellsighted (since they should be giving you two affs on the break, preferably one paralysis), so if you're caught prone and haven't already started tumbling, you're pretty much dead, which is fine imo. And SnB's even worse, if they momentum strike you to give sensi on the break for an oh-so-sexy three herb affs in one hit attack on a head break (SnB so strong
It's not hard to tumble on a single leg break though, targeted arc is slow enough that you should get away before they have balance back (~1.7-2.2s depending on sword levels plus 2.4-2.6 from what I've seen, assuming everything goes super smoothly), by which time you can already stand and run like a girl, and most Paladins are too lazy for more than a one-leg setup.
If they go for a two-leg setup, you might still get away, depending on how good your defensive abilities is (I have no idea how a Runewarden ever gets damned, tumbling into wunjo/nairat for instance)!
I don't have a problem with Damnation being strong with good weapons, though, it's easy enough to see coming and it requires a huge investment to get to the point where it's solidly reliable (1600cr in DWC, level 2's, or 800cr for a level 2 longsword, which isn't insignificant). If you've noticed a Paladin has 3 kelp affs on you already and is hitting you in the head, you should probably be running away.
you really just need a kelp count on your prompt and turtle like crazy or run when you need to.
ill take DWC runy mana locking over kelp RNG any day tho. So fun.
You have to remember that Hellsight is a smoke aff, and if you're shielding/rebounding every fourth hit with tri-kelp, it's going to be rare for you to go into Hellsight path with more than two, three max. Damnation is strong, but it's not exactly anywhere near guaranteed and almost requires a softlock to pull off consistently.
Also in regards to cripple: broken arm might stop it but that doesn't address whether or not the class needs the ability to use a 3s hinder on demand, loopable while prone/Para etc.
Monk isn't worse off prone than most classes with fitness/Kai heal to justify it imo. Tumble like nearly every other person has to. Not sure why monk gets this special treatment, more than happy to hear thoughts on that.
Penwize has cowardly forfeited the challenge to mortal combat issued by Atalkez.
Targetted arc is ~2.8
I exaggerated the difference :P
Like I said, plenty of times you can Damn faster without even using Arc, just a matter of them having the right afflictions that you can make the decision to not use curare/vernalius/monkshood with it.
Penwize has cowardly forfeited the challenge to mortal combat issued by Atalkez.
I think it being usable prone is more questionable, but in the scheme of things I think there are plenty of classes with strong abilities in that regard. Tumbling off of piety/gravehands/peels/rubble and the like and passive curing are both fairly prevalent capabilities that monks lack, and while fitness is good, it's not as strong as other active cures that can often be used prone, I feel, and other fitness using classes usually get some form of passive curing in addition. Cripple also can be turned off without too much difficulty, whereas most of those other things are harder to address during a finisher.
Sentinels and druids technically have two actives.
Blademasters get three, though one is gated behind shin.
@Keorin is technically incorrect, but she's not wrong in that all the other fitness classes (which she is explicitly referring to only) have some kind of alternative defensive arrangements.
She made no remark on other classes 'usually' getting passive + active.
Kai is never an issue for monk. You gain kai from the opponent fighting you, so even when you're getting your ass kicked, you're steadily gaining kai anyway. Kai pool is not a limiting factor on it. Kai is about as much of an issue as shin is for BM. Really easy to get and keep.
There's no class that has a 3 second hinder usable through paralysis and while prone. Knights have battlecry, which requires undeaf, but does half the effect if you're prone when you use it. Bard can sing for paralysis, but that's about it. Monk can cripple, batter, blackout into cripple to force diagnose, mind throw -- all while prone/paralysed/locked sans aconite etc. No other class even comes close to that level of on demand hinder while prone.
Now, I don't disagree with the thought process of Monk having little other recourse since they have no passive curing. I've an idea for Fitness to make it somewhat more usable, but that's not going to change the inherent problems of Monk curing. Rebounding/Shield looping is very strong versus affliction classes, and assuming the monk isn't prone you also have on-demant disrupt with a mind lock. Another 2-3s of hinder on demand (mind lock isn't hard to get, obv).
I think having some prone defense on a class that has no passive curing is a good thing. However, having it be loopable with no other pre-requirement except 'they had to hit you enough' is kind of silly.
Edit: Also, for the majority of classes, cripple is not easy to stop in the middle of their kill chain. It's manageable with a lot of work, but not something I would say is 'easy'. You also have to take into account how potent monk offense is currently, especially after the non-torso bbt change, in that Monk is going to get a solid 3-7 setups executed on you before you even get one (depending on class, of course) - and not one strat that monk uses is impotent. It's got a lot of ways to kill, on top of having defense that trumps pretty much any kill finisher. If I stop cripple, I just get mind thrown. If I stick aconite, I just get crippled, etc etc.
Penwize has cowardly forfeited the challenge to mortal combat issued by Atalkez.
Actually, do more classes have active+passive than don't?
Also, @Armali, druids have panacea as well, so 3/6 of other fitness classes have a passive+active. So yeah, not quite right that they usually do, but it's pretty common!
Edit: forgot infernal, whoops!
Passive, no active: 3
Both: 6
Penwize has cowardly forfeited the challenge to mortal combat issued by Atalkez.
If we're talking about its use while standing, I'm not sure what makes it better then looping flight, which has a similar, slightly shorter balance, forces your opponent to waste time responding once they have balance, and doesn't expend resources. And as you say, there's just the standard shield/rebounding, too, so I'm not sure how much of a marginal increase of capability cripple really is.
Monk definitely has better hinder prone then other classes, but it also lacks defensive options while prone that many other classes have, not just in terms of curing, so it's not as if it's as simple as them getting lots of free goodies. This doesn't mean that it couldn't use some dialing down, and mind throw definitely needs to go, I think, but I don't think it's quite as black and white as you're presenting it as.
Most classes can't even hinder enough to get 1 herb balances, let alone 2, with very minimal cost.
Not to mention, if you're standing then you can just shield after using it for another form of hinder, plus rebounding timing if you're aware of it. A smart cripple timed with shield/rebounding can open you up for a solid 4 afflictions cured with 0 afflictions gained.
I'm not saying Monk doesn't need it. I'm saying that Monk doesn't need it to be as good while prone, if able to use it at all.
Penwize has cowardly forfeited the challenge to mortal combat issued by Atalkez.
Cripple/throw aren't RNG, which makes them 100% better IMO for 1v1 survival.
Some classes don't have any prone defense at all. Monk already has heal, fitness, batter, without considering cripple/throw.
Regarding fly, the most obvious difference is that fly can't be used indoors. That's pretty huge since as a momentum class like priest moving indoors is sometimes what the fight comes down to. No simple counter like that to cripple.
Shielding is good but usually only stops half the attack due to shield break + attack combos. Cripple stops you from doing anything at all.
Figured I should say this before I catch a lot of flakk: Still no idea how to beat an optimised monk.
Really it sounds like overall we pretty much agree. I don't think that tuning it down while prone would be uncalled for or anything. Though I still think that it shouldn't be that hard for plenty of the classes that need the monk prone to slip an epteth into the break chain.
Penwize has cowardly forfeited the challenge to mortal combat issued by Atalkez.