Combat Logs

Armali

In a group, maybe. 1v1 it's like a 3-4s casting cost and affords you a lot of time to escape. Though, to be fair I don't know a good escape method for Paladin besides flying, and woe to you if you're stuck indoors.

Keep in mind in that fight you took three truenames back to back without even attempting to get away or otherwise delaying it. Hands is a good tool, but it's not going to make you (and should not) invincible.

Calira

The enervate/tname route might not be perfect, but making the damage reducible is definitely not the way to address it. Currently it takes 2 or 3 truenames to kill, with 3 being the max possible amount. Lowering the damage by 24% for a mini-skill plus whatever else for other resist options would simply make the route non-functional, especially sans collar.

Edit: Bolster is cheating

Anedhel

There's no reason someone should be able to do 180% of someone's health in 9-12 seconds that you can't stop in any way, shape, or form, bar running (which as already discussed is not a good option against Occultist).

Cynlael

Shielding works.

eta: Not fighting Occultists who rely entirely on truename to get (or come close to getting) kills 1v1, is also a valid option. Not hard to live against, but it's extremely boring to fight against.

Anedhel

Armali said:

In a group, maybe. 1v1 it's like a 3-4s casting cost and affords you a lot of time to escape. Though, to be fair I don't know a good escape method for Paladin besides flying, and woe to you if you're stuck indoors.

Keep in mind in that fight you took three truenames back to back without even attempting to get away or otherwise delaying it. Hands is a good tool, but it's not going to make you (and should not) invincible.

Not really talking about the fight as a whole. I'm just a little nonplussed at the figure- 60% seems super, super high. I guess it's a difference of opinion; I don't think anything unblockable that isn't a finisher that has conditions (bite, DSB, etc. etc.) should ever do that much damage.

Some people don't/won't agree, obviously, but this is seems exactly in line with abilities that were given diminishing returns in the first place, from artefacts, no? Kai choke, hugalaz on battleaxes, and so on.

Calira

Anedhel said:

There's no reason someone should be able to do 180% of someone's health in 9-12 seconds that you can't stop in any way, shape, or form, bar running (which as already discussed is not a good option against Occultist).

Why not? That seems akin to saying that there's no reason Knights should be able to do 100% of my health in a single DSB because there's no way to survive that. The entire point of kill routes is that they kill you. If there is a problem with the 1v1 truename route it certainly does not lie in the fact that it does lethal damage; rather, it might lie in the fact that aquiring truenames is too fast to mount a proper offence against, or that the tools needed to survive are all artifacts (RoF), class-specific (Bolster/Transmute/Numbness) or on a huge cooldown (Crystal tat). Those are all more constructive places to look for a solution.

Alrena

People were in an uproar when Sylvan could do massive damage, but apparently it's okay if an occultist can do it and slap on aeon along with it? And the former's damage is affected by resistances/miniskills. 3-4s isn't terribly long when you're already spending 1 of those on smoking the aeon away. Then hope tentacle rng is in your favour or you have a way of flying? 

Anedhel

I'm cool with Enervate getting nerfed so you can't just spam it and get the Truenames, for the record!

There -are- ways to survive DSB, and the window for DSB is much, much narrower than just flinging meteors and spamming Truename, and securing a DSB takes a lot longer'n securing three truenames, for the record.

But, like I said, it's a difference of opinion. You think it's fine, and I don't, and I don't think either of us is going to move on this, eh?

Armali

Calira (and I, sort of) agree with you that there might be an issue if the only viable survival methods to naked truename chain are gated behind class skills or artifacts.

I also personally did not get up into an uproar when Sylvan could do (and still can do, let's be real, that classlead didn't really nerf it at all) massive damage, because survival against it is basically the same as truename chains -- it doesn't body you instantly, so you run.

Truename damage is base around 48% (always), and modified only by collar, if I recall correctly.

Armali

Anedhel said:

There -are- ways to survive DSB, and the window for DSB is much, much narrower than just flinging meteors and spamming Truename, and securing a DSB takes a lot longer'n securing three truenames, for the record.

For the record, a DWC DSB has a far, far narrower window of escape than a truename chain, can be slow prepped to delay truename acquisition indefinitely, and once prepped, can be executed with more reliability far faster -- a naked truename chain is pretty much useless against anyone with the proper tools to escape, so you need to do stuff like throw stars, put down predamage, or stick sensi. Also, Hierophant and attend. A DWC knight just needs to wait four seconds so you're not preapplying or pretumbling and wait for you to be off balance for .5s to guarantee a DSB.

Alrena

Armali said:

Calira (and I, sort of) agree with you that there might be an issue if the only viable survival methods to naked truename chain are gated behind class skills or artifacts.

I also personally did not get up into an uproar when Sylvan could do (and still can do, let's be real, that classlead didn't really nerf it at all) massive damage, because survival against it is basically the same as truename chains -- it doesn't body you instantly, so you run.

Truename damage is base around 48% (always), and modified only by collar, if I recall correctly.

If something is too easy to acquire, such as Truename, then it shouldn't do that much damage, or it should be harder to use, or simply limited to one or two truenames at most. @Anedhel only suggested the first option, but that doesn't mean it's the only viable one. In the end, Truename is a bit silly right now, and I can only sometimes survive them with demon apathy and vigour, and the arties I have. 

I did bring Sylvan up, but without turning this too off-topic, Sylvan's finishers all have big warnings (electrify's first hit) or require more preparation (sticking several afflictions and full AP for shockwave, and then it's impossible to chain it).  I don't find that comparable to Truename, where at most you know the occie has them, leaving you the choice to try and tank them, get lucky to escape (or have a RoF, but who knows when that gets nerfed) or just bail right then and stop fighting. 

edit: there's no point to compare class vs class, but even I know DWC needs some momentum to effectively prep. Without sticking nausea or paralysis, they're not getting past your parry and they need both of your legs broken to effectively DSB.

Anedhel

I'm not going to really get into the DSB debate again, but you do need 22str to straight up kill someone, and more if they're a runie, so sitting on your hands waiting for them to hit you (assuming your enemy's careful) will probably result in you not having enough pre-damage to kill 'em unless you're super artied up!

Putting down runes/shooting meteors/etc. etc. is as big a warning flag as you get from Occultists starting their chain.

Like I said, I suppose it's an agree-to-disagree thing. You think it's fine, and I think it's silly!

Armali

Truename is absolutely not too easy to acquire -- maybe in groups, but in 1v1, you prio mana, you slow prep. If you're a momentum class, you kill them before they get the truenames (and I have absolutely done that as an alchemist). I find your statement of, 'I only sometimes survive them with demon apaty and vigour' ridiculous. You have to use your class skills to counter their class skills -- what's wrong with that (beyond the fact that some classes may actually have no built in plausible survival mechanism, wherein I agree that might be a problem).

How is Sylvan not comparable at all? I get smacked with electrify (and probably sensi). I now have to chance wildgrowth RNG or hope I have an escape method ready because if not I'm going to get stormhammered in the next two or three seconds and then electrify will hit again. How is that ANY DIFFERENT from getting truenamed, then truenamed again, then truenamed one more time (or hit by a star tarot).

Anedhel

Cuz an occie can move and hit you with the Truename again, and a sylvan has to make sure you're in the same room they prepped? And doesn't the sylvan stuff fade after a while? Occies just sit on TNs for longer'n it takes for a duel to resolve, don't they?

You can just leave the room and wait for the clouds to disperse or w/e and then come back (unless I'm crazy mistaken).

Alrena

Armali said:

Truename is absolutely not too easy to acquire -- maybe in groups, but in 1v1, you prio mana, you slow prep. If you're a momentum class, you kill them before they get the truenames (and I have absolutely done that as an alchemist). I find your statement of, 'I only sometimes survive them with demon apaty and vigour' ridiculous. You have to use your class skills to counter their class skills -- what's wrong with that (beyond the fact that some classes may actually have no built in plausible survival mechanism, wherein I agree that might be a problem).

How is Sylvan not comparable at all? I get smacked with electrify (and probably sensi). I now have to chance wildgrowth RNG or hope I have an escape method ready because if not I'm going to get stormhammered in the next two or three seconds and then electrify will hit again. How is that ANY DIFFERENT from getting truenamed, then truenamed again, then truenamed one more time (or hit by a star tarot).

Touch shield. There's no aeon to stop you from doing that, and it stops the stormhammer guaranteed. If the sylvan is slow, you don't get hit by the second electrify hit either. Then there's never enough AP for a second electrify, so you get the chance to heal up. That's not even taking into account class specific counters, such as flying, hermit, hangedman,... because shield is something everyone has.

I find it more ridiculous to claim an ability is okay because a class with class skills who can reduce the damage and have active healing can survive it, but other classes who don't have this are screwed, but maybe that's the problem? Idk, I'm with @Anedhel here and gonna agree to disagree at this point, no point arguing further.

Armali

No one's disagreeing with you that if there exists no class-independent way of surviving the truename sequence, that it might be worth looking into, @Alrena, and I've pointed that out twice already. As is, there /are/ artifacts that can be used to survive it (lyre, rof).

Speaking of which, shield absolutely does not stop the stormhammer guaranteed. Diadem qw hammer is 1.8ish, which means unless the target literally shields on electrify (which, come on, what are the chances), they'll eat a stormhammer. You're also forgetting that, on average, it will take an Occultist longer on average to just drain mana for cleanse aura (5, at 3s each, 15s), than it does for a sylvan to gather the AP for an electrify bomb (6 combos at about 2.2ish, 13s).

Saira

Whew. I really don't feel like an utter failure anymore after dying (I've never died that fast to damage) to Archaon earlier today. I'm glad to see that two good combatants are complaining about that damage, too. It took two truenames to kill me, and this was me spamming FLY but Aeon fucked me over so hard, so I couldn't get away in time. And that mana stealing ability an Occie has took ~1000 of my mana (max 3818), why can't my leech/sap do that much for Caths

Farrah

Anedhel said:

Armali said:

In a group, maybe. 1v1 it's like a 3-4s casting cost and affords you a lot of time to escape. Though, to be fair I don't know a good escape method for Paladin besides flying, and woe to you if you're stuck indoors.

Keep in mind in that fight you took three truenames back to back without even attempting to get away or otherwise delaying it. Hands is a good tool, but it's not going to make you (and should not) invincible.

Not really talking about the fight as a whole. I'm just a little nonplussed at the figure- 60% seems super, super high. I guess it's a difference of opinion; I don't think anything unblockable that isn't a finisher that has conditions (bite, DSB, etc. etc.) should ever do that much damage.

Some people don't/won't agree, obviously, but this is seems exactly in line with abilities that were given diminishing returns in the first place, from artefacts, no? Kai choke, hugalaz on battleaxes, and so on.

Truename -is- a finisher. Though, I think they last like an hour once collected? Maybe it should be more like 3-5 minutes like most prep thing.

Corpse collected no-prep Truename are silly because they break group combat.

Anedhel

Farrah said:

Anedhel said:

Armali said:

In a group, maybe. 1v1 it's like a 3-4s casting cost and affords you a lot of time to escape. Though, to be fair I don't know a good escape method for Paladin besides flying, and woe to you if you're stuck indoors.

Keep in mind in that fight you took three truenames back to back without even attempting to get away or otherwise delaying it. Hands is a good tool, but it's not going to make you (and should not) invincible.

Not really talking about the fight as a whole. I'm just a little nonplussed at the figure- 60% seems super, super high. I guess it's a difference of opinion; I don't think anything unblockable that isn't a finisher that has conditions (bite, DSB, etc. etc.) should ever do that much damage.

Some people don't/won't agree, obviously, but this is seems exactly in line with abilities that were given diminishing returns in the first place, from artefacts, no? Kai choke, hugalaz on battleaxes, and so on.

Truename -is- a finisher. Though, I think they last like an hour once collected? Maybe it should be more like 3-5 minutes like most prep thing.

Corpse collected no-prep Truename are silly because they break group combat.

If it took three to five minutes to get them, I wouldn't mind! Just feels a little odd the way it works, atm.

Truename right now just feels a lot like a few of the things people used to be crabby about, like lethal ink axekicks or hugalaz bursts. You -can- avoid them, and it's mostly your fault for dying to it, true, but the amount of damage it does proportional to the effort feels a little on the whacky side. (Don't read too much into it! Yes, touch web/axk is much easier than enervating to get the Truename, but that statement's not meant to be an entirely accurate comparison, merely a way of conveying a point of view on the matter)

Jovolo

3 to 5 minutes to get them? Most prep classes now prep in like 30 to 60 seconds max.

Exelethril

Jovolo said:

3 to 5 minutes to get them? Most prep classes now prep in like 30 to 60 seconds max.

Not really against clever people and those dirty min/maxers of health pools. If you're a monk with half a brain, yes.

Kasa

I see your solution to Sylvan is 'touch shield.' interesting fact, this is my solution to tname. Shield first and then smoke away aeon.

Kasa

Jovolo said:

3 to 5 minutes to get them? Most prep classes now prep in like 30 to 60 seconds max.

Farrah said keep for 3 to 5 not get

Borran

Kasa said:

I see your solution to Sylvan is 'touch shield.' interesting fact, this is my solution to tname. Shield first and then smoke away aeon.

A lot easier to touch shield worth v no afflictions than it is with aeon.

Cooper

Jovolo said:

3 to 5 minutes to get them? Most prep classes now prep in like 30 to 60 seconds max.

They take about 20 seconds to get on me in dragonform with mana sip priority with level 2 sash and level 3 bracelet. Knight classes will prep while artied under perfect circumstance and no fighting back in 60 seconds, assuming no rebounding and shielding for knights, level 3 weapons, and an opponent at unartefacted but high level.

Where are you getting your numbers from?

Farrah

I mean, enervate/Glaaki is in some sense similar to cath/absolve. The mana drain is faster, but in the end you collect TNs rather than an insta. It's a unique style, which is kinda cool, but in considering the balance you have to consider that it has both a momentum aspect and a finisher aspect. You can try to slow the collection of Truename whether by running when mana is low, using mana healing actives if you have them, etc.

You can also wait for the finish attempt once you -know- they have Truename and dodge that kill, similar to how you would a prep setup.

To me, the TN chain seems survivable as every class. Most if not all classes have their own abilities that help (hands, priestess, ri'shen, vigour, numb, Kai heal/transmute, bolster, evade, etc.). If there's a class that has nothing, they can use crystal tattoo.

If your concern is Stars and then TNs, that's more comparable to the thurisaz death stack and the counter to that always seems to be running. RoF makes that easy since Stars always means outdoors, but in terms of a no-artie escape, maybe occie mobile tents does make that too difficult.

I seem to remember @Makarios making it so you can't engage after thurisaz sketch, so anytime the runie starts the death stack you can run, free of isaz/engage hinder. Maybe a Star landing in the room should disintegrate the occie's tentacles, requiring resummon, or temporarily numb them allowing 100% leaving for a few seconds. That'd solve the star, star, star, TN, TN, TN with no escape problem

Exelethril

I just find it weird that there aren't any mechanics in place that would let someone stop Enervate momentum when every other momentum class have mechanics in place that let you.. you know, counter their momentum.

Atalkez

I tried to get it hinderable (Para etc). Just got prone removed instead >.>

Farrah

Most momentum classes can hinder back though. Enervate doesn't hinder you, so if it's too hinderable, the occie will just get halted. And it's not pure momentum since it doesn't end in a guaranteed kill if unhindered. It just leads to TN collection.

It's never really been an issue for me unless I mess up (accidentally spamming in aeon and delaying smoke too much). It'd actually be really nice if you could set serverside curing to not override your commands in aeon (wait for them to finish then resume curing).

Cooper

I much prefer the Occultist goes the true name route. It is survivable without running unless the Occie is artied. I still don't like it though but it's not as big of a deal as people make it.