Combat Logs

Rangor

Not sure if para/clumsy/confusion has any realistic effect on priest either. Don't think smite can miss, and the affs are on class balances?

Cynlael

Disrupt uses class (healing) balance, but smite/chasten/etc are still affected by lethargy/confusion. Para too obviously, unsure of clumsiness affects smite. I wanna say 'no' - weariness will lessen the damage, though, at least.

Dochitha

Cynlael said:

Disrupt uses class (healing) balance, but smite/chasten/etc are still affected by lethargy/confusion. Para too obviously, unsure of clumsiness affects smite. I wanna say 'no' - weariness will lessen the damage, though, at least.

Got it! Guess to play against them is going to the extreme of defense as in slow prep shield spam, or offense, as in hindering them... Lethargy, confusion, clumsiness, that makes sense. Confusion is prolly better cos Chasten is on EQ? And disrupt requires both EQ and Bal to use?

Mizik

And then there's Bedevil. Which is still somehow a thing following these classleads.

Ace in the deck to just say 'fuck it' to the rest of the class' design. Or any others'.

And this:

Farrah utters a prayer and smites you with an elegant silver mace.
Farrah strikes you with a dark bolt of energy directed through her mace.
A prickly stinging overcomes your body, fading away into numbness.

Never noticed this before.

Cynlael

No disrupt require class balance. Which stops them healing affs, too. 

Depends, really. Lethargy affects both balance and equilibrium, so it also slows the smite down. Whereas confusion will just slow the chasten down.

Exelethril

Having fought pre-nerf autopostate and priest, I would still say priest is scarier because at least apostates are a bit predictable. Like, if you saw stain(rip) stuck, you can curseward(or fitness) to break some of their momentum and they didn't reflect afflictions / clumsy affected their momentum / hellsight being viable with a 2 kelp stack + earth disrupt.

Being perma-clumsy as a knight or having to shut down an entire aff path(focuslocking) because of earth disrupt looping/passive reflect and resorting to damage + stupidity path instead is quite limiting. Then again, Farrah is really good so it's like comparing top x of a class with top x of something else.

Antonius

Passive Bedevil is an awful and unnecessary mechanic. Props to Makarios for trying new things, but seems like we should have just accepted it as a failed experiment and done away with it ages ago. Priest doesn't seem totally incapable of killing classes that don't use afflictions, which suggests its offense is potent enough without it, so I don't really see why they need even more help against affliction classes. And if they do have issues against classes that don't use afflictions then passive Bedevil just holds them back from getting changes they need to make up that gap.

You could try fighting Priest as SnB Runewarden without using venoms or shield strikes that give afflictions (so basically just smash and trip). Slow prep torso through parry using shieldstrike low + combination.

Exelethril

Guardbreak is good for that.

Mizik

Antonius said:

Passive Bedevil is an awful and unnecessary mechanic. Props to Makarios for trying new things, but seems like we should have just accepted it as a failed experiment and done away with it ages ago. Priest doesn't seem totally incapable of killing classes that don't use afflictions, which suggests its offense is potent enough without it, so I don't really see why they need even more help against affliction classes. And if they do have issues against classes that don't use afflictions then passive Bedevil just holds them back from getting changes they need to make up that gap.

You could try fighting Priest as SnB Runewarden without using venoms or shield strikes that give afflictions (so basically just smash and trip). Slow prep torso through parry using shieldstrike low + combination.

QFT, my dude.

Borran

I see Troven killing people all the time with damage.  Can someone post some upper tier Sylvan combat? 

I know some combinations that do massive damage,  but they're easily countered.  I'd like to see how these sylvans are dealing with it. 

Xinna

There's a pretty pervasive attitude problem with respect to priest that taints everyone's perspective. I never had any trouble killing them. The resources are there.

Those logs don't even look particularly bad to me. Compare to a good Occultist or Alchemist or Serpent or Bard. If you look at it objectively, I don't think it really goes down any faster vs priest.

"Don't bother. Priest is unbeatable." is the worst attitude to have, especially since the opposite has been proven by people who actually treat it like any class and give it a try. It's also very difficult to balance things when people have that attitude because things aren't balanced around playing poorly due to lack of experience vs the class. 

Borran

Xinna said:

There's a pretty pervasive attitude problem with respect to priest that taints everyone's perspective. I never had any trouble killing them. The resources are there.

Those logs don't even look particularly bad to me. Compare to a good Occultist or Alchemist or Serpent or Bard. If you look at it objectively, I don't think it really goes down any faster vs priest.

"Don't bother. Priest is unbeatable." is the worst attitude to have, especially since the opposite has been proven by people who actually treat it like any class and give it a try. It's also very difficult to balance things when people have that attitude because things aren't balanced around playing poorly due to lack of experience vs the class. 

Logs of you killing priests would be better. ^_^

Xinna

@Borran

Unfortunately, I'm retired! Look at the posts in the priests thread where they all whined after passive Bedevil was implemented as proof! (Though you probably don't actually want to read that crap). It's really just like fighting Occultist or Apostate in most respects. If you're Alchemist or Apostate, you have to go for your health/mana based kills instead of afflictions.

Any other affliction class, you force BEDEVIL to disable healing then fight normally. You'll need to lock quickly if you're fighting a really good priest, just like if you're fighting a good Occultist, but it's doable.

Prep classes do pretty ordinary prep setups. Have to do basically the same to survive while prepping as you would vs alchie or Apostate or Occultist.

Makarios

I'm not going to open discourse here as in my experience there is no touchier subject than priest when it comes to class balance, but I will say I cannot think of a single class without recourse against priest. The only possible edge case is unartefacted serpent.

That said if you want to chat about specific issues and have logs to back up your points of concern where you cure optimally/react appropriately and such, feel free to drop me a message. I'd definitely be interested after the latest bunch of classleads.

Borran

To be clear, I am not jumping on the Priests OP bandwagon. I just really wanna see combat logs.

Kenway

The only thing I dislike about priest is they can kill me while impaled. Ultimate buzzkill. Finish prep, survive, break, impale, disemb-- dead. Many salty tears.

Xinna

Not anymore! Absolve doesn't work prone.

Mizik

@Xinna @Makarios

I can understand Xinna defending her class. Even the overpowered incurable offense I can accept. Aspects of their offense - the ability to bury paralysis on an extended herb balance affliction that MUST be prioritized and can be stacked, coupled with the inability to turtle against it or run from it (earth is spammable off bal/eq) - are flatly broken.

It's the unnecessary defensive special treatment that makes it all pointless. We design offense for all these classes, then Priest is exempt from all out efforts. The existence of targeted aff Healing on its own balance, coupled with passive cure, coupled with either function of Bedevil that has no justification for existing, coupled with intense punishment based offense pressure, all wrapped neatly under a cheesy ass kill, the dated and overpowered Absolve are what really outshines the incurable.

I wouldn't mind the fact that I can't fight back if my abilities - as all the classes that I have played at the top tier level - could kill the class. 

Two flawed perspectives against the rest of the game do not a balanced class make.

Borran

Kenway said:

The only thing I dislike about priest is they can kill me while impaled. Ultimate buzzkill. Finish prep, survive, break, impale, disemb-- dead. Many salty tears.

If I remember correctly, they can't anymore. They can no longer absolve while prone. 

Kafziel

I think the part that makes me hate fighting priest and occultist is that you get punished for curing. That is dissatisfying to me

Exelethril

Hmm, I think Dochitha's prios were wrong. Should be para > asthma > clumsy(depending on your risk tolerance/class) > earth disrupt > everything else

Also, didn't read his log properly but didn't seem like he smoked for hellsight without asthma stuck. Not sure what to do if mental affs(especially stupidity) are stacked with earth disrupt + spirit disrupt though, kinda hard to do most things with stupidity.

Are priest affs via chasten completely random or does it follow a sequence of affs?

Edit : Idk  @Jhui vs @Farrah would be a good measure for OPness

Xinna

@Mizik I was apo/alchie/bard, not priest! I've never defended anything I thought was OP because I played the class.

You do have to use the counters that were added, though. Bedevil, targeted heal.... Stopped by one, simple force. You literally cannot complain about healing as any class with force. It's just so easy to stop. And yet you do.

You also complain about paralysis while posting a log of you sitting there not eating magnesium. Yes, you have to cure paralysis if you don't want to be paralysed. Yes, this allows other afflictions to be stuck at times, like most classes. Priest doesn't even have it on demand.

Mizik

Para > asthma > clumsy > Earth? 

Doesn't that just mean all the disrupts + spirit wrack affs - feasible focus?

But I guess it beats perma para or perma hellsight.

Gross.

Finkle

Exelethril said:

Also, didn't read his log properly but didn't seem like he smoked for hellsight without asthma stuck. Not sure what to do if mental affs(especially stupidity) are stacked with earth disrupt + spirit disrupt though, kinda hard to do most things with stupidity.

 Condemn on the hellsight.

He can't smoke it away until it is gone.

Part of the problem is a lot of people aren't even aware of a lot of the mechanics.  The other day I heard someone say focusing on spiritdisrupt gave physicals, it doesnt.

It's a rough class to fight but I enjoy fighting farrah.  Even if she would probably rather me burn in a fire so she can hunt annwyn

Farrah

Finkle said:

Exelethril said:

Also, didn't read his log properly but didn't seem like he smoked for hellsight without asthma stuck. Not sure what to do if mental affs(especially stupidity) are stacked with earth disrupt + spirit disrupt though, kinda hard to do most things with stupidity.

 Condemn on the hellsight.

He can't smoke it away until it is gone.

Part of the problem is a lot of people aren't even aware of a lot of the mechanics.  The other day I heard someone say focusing on spiritdisrupt gave physicals, it doesnt.

It's a rough class to fight but I enjoy fighting farrah.  Even if she would probably rather me burn in a fire so she can hunt annwyn

You kidding? That's -why- I hunt Annwyn!

Atalkez

Mizik said:

(earth is spammable off bal/eq) 

Pretty sure this is not true. They can combo it with smite, nothing else, but can't use it off EQ - afaik. I could be mistaken

Anyway, the best curing prios is para/asthma > earthdisrupt > everything else. Don't focus while spiritdisrupted, unless you're just focus stacked and have to. Managing your mana vs health sips is imperative, and shielding stalls them a lot harder than it stalls alchie. Angel strip uses EQ, which means they can't use other things, which leaves you only maybe taking a spiritwrack in that time. It's not pretty, but it's do-able (assuming you haven't got confusion).

I don't think the class is as broken anymore, but it still can use some slight tweaks. Passive bedevil I'm not a fan of, but then again we have monks guard/pnb and Bard Heartsfury, which punishes attacking, so it's not the only ability in the game that works like this.

Is Earth disrupt itself being affected by the malus on the herb balance? If so, I think that needs to get fixed to emulate addiction in not working on the targetted cure itself, but the other cures.

I do think that Healing being balanced around force abilities, when not all classes have access to them, seems odd - but then again, plenty of classes are equipped to handle Priest on a base level - scaling with str/arties could be an issue, but that's not an issue that only Priest has, either.

Edit: RE: curing priorities. They're going to need to change, and change a lot vs Priest. You're not going to just set a static prio and be okay. You have to play it like you do serpent or apo, with some small prio swaps here and there at the sacrifice of your own offense. They can't bury Paralysis until you just refuse to cure it, since they don't get it on demand. It's pure RNG when it's given, so managing prios properly is just as important as anything else.

Farrah

Disrupt is usable off eq/bal. Not sure how that makes it more spammable than anything else, since it's on its own balance. It's comparable to Occultist entity or Bard voice. Earth disrupt cure isn't lengthened.

Definitely agree those without force are potentially in the worst spot. The idea is supposed to be that they have other kill methods with damage and mana kills. But if some class has nothing, I'm sure that's where changes would be made.

Makarios

Mizik said:

@Xinna @Makarios

I can understand Xinna defending her class. Even the overpowered incurable offense I can accept. Aspects of their offense - the ability to bury paralysis on an extended herb balance affliction that MUST be prioritized and can be stacked, coupled with the inability to turtle against it or run from it (earth is spammable off bal/eq) - are flatly broken.

It's the unnecessary defensive special treatment that makes it all pointless. We design offense for all these classes, then Priest is exempt from all out efforts. The existence of targeted aff Healing on its own balance, coupled with passive cure, coupled with either function of Bedevil that has no justification for existing, coupled with intense punishment based offense pressure, all wrapped neatly under a cheesy ass kill, the dated and overpowered Absolve are what really outshines the incurable.

I wouldn't mind the fact that I can't fight back if my abilities - as all the classes that I have played at the top tier level - could kill the class. 

Two flawed perspectives against the rest of the game do not a balanced class make.

I'll refrain from commenting on the entire game generalisation. You probably know what I'd say already.

If your issue is with priest defence, I think we can safely agree on that subject. Healing is definitely a very dated skill, and it'd be great to have time to revamp it one day. Its basically a bunch of bandaides on top of pre automated curing mechanics. Just not at the top of the combat project changes list currently.

I maintain that priest offense should be manageable though, or at least as manageable as any other high end momentum class when handled properly. Like I said though, I'd be happy to be proved wrong, it does happen on occasion (and I have little doubt at all that it needs some tweaks, like most classes tend to).

Atalkez

@Dochitha

Alright, so I read through your log. Several things I noticed:

1: You don't seem to be picking up all the spiritwrack afflictions. I'm not sure if that is because there isn't an accompanying message from the game yet, or if SVO just isn't recognizing them. This hurt you pretty bad.

2: You're running, but you're not running. Evading once is good to get out of Piety, but there's no need to continue looping it unless they drop Piety when they walk in, just run. If they do this, then they are losing momentum, because Piety is a long EQ balance. Usually enough time to get an eat, maybe two, in before they get EQ back. This is when you Evade again. Also, you can't forget that right now RoF > Piety. Evade isn't always the best option.

3: You're not getting any momentum or stacking anything. You're faster than her, but you played like she was just all over you from the jump. She wasn't. You burned her tree, dstabbed once more than you started Evading. You weren't in danger that fast, but you seem to be scared because of the ideology of Priest being so fast. Priest from 0 afflictions is going to take 30-40 seconds to kill. Serpent, once hypno'd, can do it in half that time. You were fighting a momentum class, as a momentum class, but you never actually utilized your speed advantage.

4: You never once shielded. Priest can strip shield/disrupt, but they can't continue to stack. Use shield to buy yourself an extra non-disrupt eat, then prio your disrupts after that. Especially if you have asthma.

5: Sometimes, you have to focus with spiritdisrupt. Turning off focus completely helps in the early stages to conserve mana and to not give them free disrupts. Once you're behind, though, you need to work on the afflictions that are really hurting you (kalmia, hellsight, hallucinations, dizziness) that actually cause you to die. The disrupts alone aren't going to be enough, focusing with all four will give you impatience, but without slickness/asthma they can't really capitalize on that. It's when you don't focus for long periods of time, letting yourself get stacked with several focus afflictions, and kalmia, that hellsight just ruins you. Need to manage this better.

Those are just what I noticed. Priest isn't easy to fight, not debating that at all. I believe it is a class that punishes poor choices probably more than any other class, and so inaccurate moves just lead to you being clobbered.

Exelethril

Hmm, how does one survive against tumble cancels with axekicks? - https://ada-young.appspot.com/pastebin/7c1dc844c

Also, force apply restoration torso on double leg break beyond looping mending on salve balance.