Cyrene

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  • Velyse said:
    @Nellaundra I just edited my post real quick to add some additional information :) Looks like you got a post in pretty quick! I remember people calling you out when you said that the leadership of Cyrene was just as bad/corrupt as Mhaldor over CT, and that wasn't all that long ago. Maybe within the past month or two? Definitely not beyond the past 15 IG years -- I haven't even been playing that long. I also remember you not actually stating why you thought that, just that you did, so the topic got dropped because it would have just devolved into pointless bickering over baseless claims.
    I legitimately don't even remember that, but generally Nell's rarely said much about the leadership.  She might have said something like Mhaldor's one of the least corrupt (from her point of view, which is fairly regular) but that's about it.  Logs?  Cause, that would actually be something I'd be glad to be called out on.
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  • Velyse said:
    @Nellaundra I just edited my post real quick to add some additional information :) Looks like you got a post in pretty quick! I remember people calling you out when you said that the leadership of Cyrene was just as bad/corrupt as Mhaldor over CT, and that wasn't all that long ago. Maybe within the past month or two? Definitely not beyond the past 15 IG years -- I haven't even been playing that long. I also remember you not actually stating why you thought that, just that you did, so the topic got dropped because it would have just devolved into pointless bickering over baseless claims.
    I legitimately don't even remember that, but generally Nell's rarely said much about the leadership.  She might have said something like Mhaldor's one of the least corrupt (from her point of view, which is fairly regular) but that's about it.  Logs?  Cause, that would actually be something I'd be glad to be called out on.
    My laptop died recently so I don't have logs of anything beyond a few weeks ago, unfortunately :( I wish I did, because it was really random. It stood out to me because I've never seen Nella say anything like that before. I think people were talking about how bad and/or corrupt Mhaldorian leadership is (bad in terms of evil), and Nella said that Cyrenian leadership is no better. I don't even think it was on the basis of them being less corrupt, I think it was just a dig at Verrucht.

    Either way, that's the only time I can think of where Nella said something specifically outrageous, and it was dropped because it was so outrageous that, combined with her lack of a reason why, I just figured it was a personal grudge or a bad day or something. Can you give an example of some of the things Nella has gotten away with saying?
  • edited December 2012

    Velyse said:
    Velyse said:
    @Nellaundra I just edited my post real quick to add some additional information :) Looks like you got a post in pretty quick! I remember people calling you out when you said that the leadership of Cyrene was just as bad/corrupt as Mhaldor over CT, and that wasn't all that long ago. Maybe within the past month or two? Definitely not beyond the past 15 IG years -- I haven't even been playing that long. I also remember you not actually stating why you thought that, just that you did, so the topic got dropped because it would have just devolved into pointless bickering over baseless claims.
    I legitimately don't even remember that, but generally Nell's rarely said much about the leadership.  She might have said something like Mhaldor's one of the least corrupt (from her point of view, which is fairly regular) but that's about it.  Logs?  Cause, that would actually be something I'd be glad to be called out on.
    My laptop died recently so I don't have logs of anything beyond a few weeks ago, unfortunately :( I wish I did, because it was really random. It stood out to me because I've never seen Nella say anything like that before. I think people were talking about how bad and/or corrupt Mhaldorian leadership is (bad in terms of evil), and Nella said that Cyrenian leadership is no better. I don't even think it was on the basis of them being less corrupt, I think it was just a dig at Verrucht.

    Either way, that's the only time I can think of where Nella said something specifically outrageous, and it was dropped because it was so outrageous that, combined with her lack of a reason why, I just figured it was a personal grudge or a bad day or something. Can you give an example of some of the things Nella has gotten away with saying?
    Plenty of death threats, general ridiculousness on the level of Syth, jokes at others expense, quite a few things honestly.  As shown in the quote I used to have, she got away with threatening Phaestus with a fat lip since that's how she greeted Verrucht earlier and He joked about Verrucht getting more attention...honestly, there's quite a bit.  And more than a few times, I've commented in an insane clan that I'm shocked Nell didn't get a zap or a CDF for it.  No one notices or cares.

    EDIT: If it helps, an Occie friend of mine has said that Nell speaks like the Occultists do on their channel.

    This is the example they used.

    (Occultists): Hirst says, "Does anybody have a moment to send me to the Pit of
    Golgotha?"

    (Occultists): Mariya says, "Oh, all right."

    (Occultists): Hirst says, "I may have accidently sent my father there for
    calling me "an ******* of a son"."

    (Occultists): Mariya says, "These things happen."


    image
  • Tahquil said:
    Maybe flip this thread back to talking about Cyrene and not Nellaundra?
    Well, the discussion is still about Cyrene. Specifically, whether the city and the leadership has a problem with letting people (in this case, Nella) get away with doing "outrageous" things because of "respect." That said, I don't think anyone ever took the things Nella said seriously, so I hardly think some good-natured ribbing with Phaestus means that Cyrene is "slowly dying of inactivity" as has been claimed elsewhere in the thread.
  • VayneVayne Rhode Island
    Why in the world would we want hard code that? That is something that already organically happens within the games population. If a city has the best artistic culture that will become apparent. I would say that is between Mhaldor and Cyrene. As for economics, Hashan is the clear winner in generated financial gain.
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  • Katzchen said:

    Haven't read all the posts on this thread, so not sure if it's been mentioned, but it would be pretty cool to have some sort of system where cities could vie to be the cultural or commercial capitals of Achaea, judged on actual things like amount of shops or books, quality and diversity of goods, performances, sculptures, city design, winners of art/bard, or citizens handing in trade deals in harbours getting small amounts of points. Something non combatants could compete against each other for. It might help motivate Cyrene, Hashan, and other city's non military forces to work on improvements to their cities.

    It could either be judged by an impartial party (admin/divine) every decade or so, or set up to be automatic - but that might even be more work with coding, I don't know how it works, and definitely more limiting. Possibly with small bonuses to citizens, like a 10% discount in denizen owned shops, or bonus to ratting/fishing gold for the commercial capital, as well as the right to shout from the rooftops about it of course.


    So...like Lusternia's Culture system?


  • Velyse said:
    Velyse said:
    @Nellaundra I just edited my post real quick to add some additional information :) Looks like you got a post in pretty quick! I remember people calling you out when you said that the leadership of Cyrene was just as bad/corrupt as Mhaldor over CT, and that wasn't all that long ago. Maybe within the past month or two? Definitely not beyond the past 15 IG years -- I haven't even been playing that long. I also remember you not actually stating why you thought that, just that you did, so the topic got dropped because it would have just devolved into pointless bickering over baseless claims.
    I legitimately don't even remember that, but generally Nell's rarely said much about the leadership.  She might have said something like Mhaldor's one of the least corrupt (from her point of view, which is fairly regular) but that's about it.  Logs?  Cause, that would actually be something I'd be glad to be called out on.
    My laptop died recently so I don't have logs of anything beyond a few weeks ago, unfortunately :( I wish I did, because it was really random. It stood out to me because I've never seen Nella say anything like that before. I think people were talking about how bad and/or corrupt Mhaldorian leadership is (bad in terms of evil), and Nella said that Cyrenian leadership is no better. I don't even think it was on the basis of them being less corrupt, I think it was just a dig at Verrucht.

    Either way, that's the only time I can think of where Nella said something specifically outrageous, and it was dropped because it was so outrageous that, combined with her lack of a reason why, I just figured it was a personal grudge or a bad day or something. Can you give an example of some of the things Nella has gotten away with saying?
    Plenty of death threats, general ridiculousness on the level of Syth, jokes at others expense, quite a few things honestly.  As shown in the quote I used to have, she got away with threatening Phaestus with a fat lip since that's how she greeted Verrucht earlier and He joked about Verrucht getting more attention...honestly, there's quite a bit.  And more than a few times, I've commented in an insane clan that I'm shocked Nell didn't get a zap or a CDF for it.  No one notices or cares.
    So, you think it's bad that people realized you were joking?  If Phaestus wanted to take offense, he would have and you'd have been dealt with.  If he didn't, why would the city leadership step in?

    If you actually step over a line, you'll get slapped for it. Making snotty little comments just makes you look snotty and really there's no reason to deal with that.  Verrucht doesn't really take Nellaundra seriously, so her comments are more likely to be ignored than perhaps someone else's comments.

  • Never played Lusternia, so I don't know.

    @Vayne, because some people seem to need these 'rewards' to want to do something about it, and even those who don't would probably appreciate the recognition.



                   Honourable, knight eternal,

                                            Darkly evil, cruel infernal.

                                                                     Necromanctic to the core,

                                                                                             Dance with death forever more.



  • Daeir said:

    Verrucht said:
    She personally enjoys seeing how far the line can be pushed without getting in trouble (much like a Jester, honestly)
    Honestly, when I know you're saying something just to prompt a reaction or get a rise, I try to ignore it unless you have crossed a serious line. There's no point in giving people the reaction they want if it's only going to encourage them.
    That's half the problem. If your citizenry has to literally goad people into getting responses out of them, something is terribly, terribly wrong. It's even worse when you ignore that goading since that is basically a person screaming out to start some interaction.

    Quite frankly, if you want to have your humble peace and quiet, leave the city and become a rogue. Cities are places for people to mesh and interact with each other when nothing is happening. The idea that you would ignore or otherwise reprimand a person for attempting to start interaction (regardless of the means) is a disgusting attitude given that this game is one centered around interaction in the first place, and I now fully understand the reason behind why Cyrene is slowly dying of inactivity if this is the attitude that the bulk of the leadership holds.
    While you're right, this is a game based around interaction, that requires that both sides want to have the desired interaction.  This is why we actually have a safe-guard on PK, this is why we have an IGNORE function and don't allow sexual harassment (if you put aside possible legal issues).

    Someone making snotty little comments over the city channel isn't someone who wants interaction, it's someone making snotty little comments over the city channel.  If people want meaningful interaction they'll engage people in a meaningful way. This meaningful way can still be with an insubordinate attitude or otherwise be clashing with the culture of the city you're in, but as someone who has played for quite a while now, I feel as if I have a reasonable handle on the difference between the two.

    While people might talk about Cyrene "dying" of inactivity, the population has never been bigger in recent times, and just keeps on growing, most of the reason there's a lack of participation is because people either schedule poorly or people don't actively and aggressively rally people.  When Verrucht really pushes and rallies people to a cause or event, they show up.  When people just make a post with a date or mention something once or twice, there's a lesser turnout.

  • It's off topic, but there are so many avenues that reward combat that I think it wouldn't hurt for there to be one that rewards non-combat areas. To bring it full circle to Cyrene again, I think it would also open a ton of conflict between organizations that Cyrene has no business getting into PvP conflict with. It would preserve what is 'Cyrene' while still giving Cyrene a purpose, if people want to participate.
  • edited December 2012
    >_> I wouldn't immediately make the leap from "no one's applying to join politics or joining contests" to "THE CITY IS DYING OF INACTIVITY!" Alas, not everyone has the stomach or inclination or the schedule to involve themselves in something as thankless, time intensive and crazy as bureaucracy and contests can be stifled by such things as self-doubt, busy schedules and the fact it may not just be your thing. Is it discouraging to try and form something only to have no one express interest? Sure, but it'd be silly to just attribute it to APATHY.

    That said, if there -really- is a need, I believe some citizens would care enough to step up to fill in the gaps in government and although I believe Cyrene could be a bit more proactive in the world, I think that it should be on Cyrene's terms, so we should push what we're good at which is culture. Everyone else is already warmongering, I don't see why we should join in, especially since I find that any extended form of combat gets physically exhausting for me after a while (how do people in Ashtan keep it up daily? D: ) and I know some people who don't like combat at all and it does make sense that there should be a city like that if only so people with the same general ideals can have a sense of community. 

    Edit: Or I suppose people that like should all suck it up and be rogues, cut adrift from the rest of civilization because heaven knows you're not a REAL Achaean if you don't get the urge to brutally murder someone every 10 minutes. <_<
  • edited December 2012
    Mhaldor is the center of all culture because 'Suffering' is such a broad term.

    Everything from stubbing a toe to the inevitable Occultist hangovers is the equivalent of praising Lord Sartan. GG everyone.
  • Tvistor said:
    Mhaldor is the center of all culture because 'Suffering' is such a broad term.

    Everything from stubbing a toe to the inevitable Occultist hangovers is the equivalent of praising Lord Sartan. GG everyone.
    Right, you, I'll make you suffer.

    Get into the SNUGGLES CHAMBER! Now!

    Bad, bad, Tvistor!!!!!
  • Katzchen said:

    Haven't read all the posts on this thread, so not sure if it's been mentioned, but it would be pretty cool to have some sort of system where cities could vie to be the cultural or commercial capitals of Achaea, judged on actual things like amount of shops or books, quality and diversity of goods, performances, sculptures, city design, winners of art/bard, or citizens handing in trade deals in harbours getting small amounts of points. Something non combatants could compete against each other for. It might help motivate Cyrene, Hashan, and other city's non military forces to work on improvements to their cities.

    It could either be judged by an impartial party (admin/divine) every decade or so, or set up to be automatic - but that might even be more work with coding, I don't know how it works, and definitely more limiting. Possibly with small bonuses to citizens, like a 10% discount in denizen owned shops, or bonus to ratting/fishing gold for the commercial capital, as well as the right to shout from the rooftops about it of course.

    I wrote a detailed IG proposal about something very similar this to Scarlatti's Order. I really needn't be hardcoded, but it would take a great deal of IG work.  I don't play much of Sylvance any more, but if anybody wants those plans I more than likely have a copy.
    Tvistor: If that was a troll, it was masterful.
    I take my hat off to you.
  • edited December 2012
    Vayne said:
    Why in the world would we want hard code that? That is something that already organically happens within the games population. If a city has the best artistic culture that will become apparent. I would say that is between Mhaldor and Cyrene. As for economics, Hashan is the clear winner in generated financial gain.
    And I would utterly beg to differ on the embolded statement.  The mere fact that your next statement is a toss up between two of the five Cities seems a strange way to evidence that there's a clear artistic winner.  I've long argued that Art doesn't have an established place in Achaea, but I now get that that's because its conception was a PvP game.  That said, there is more to PvP than killing one another, but that's another debate entirely.

    Frankly (and I looooove the Bardic, so don't take this as a rant) the Bardic doesn't matter IGly, it's something of a bolt-on.  You could conceivably make a lolAlt, never log him in again and win every Bardic.  The flipside of this is that I would love for my PvP alt to start writing Bardics, but I'd be cutting my own throat because the incremental increases in payout for sticking them all on one character are substantial.

    Anyway [/derail]

    ETA: If anyone knows wtf is wrong with my quotes, please throw me a message?
    Tvistor: If that was a troll, it was masterful.
    I take my hat off to you.

  • >_> I don't know about you but I actually publish my Bardics in game. In a sense, yeah, it doesn't matter since I'd probably still publish crap in game anyway but actually getting rewards other than seeing your work in city/org/order libraries (Kaden has books in Cyrene, Scarlatti's Order and the Kindred) is a pretty nice OOC encouragement. I suppose it is true that you could keep publishing Bardics without logging in but thinking that way is more an attitude problem rather than actually making good use of a rather nice OOC mechanic in game. I would also argue your point about Art having no place. Being human ensures that Art will have a place, especially in a game that's supposed to simulate communities and ideologies and there ARE people who like staying in the musty libraries just reading the collective works of current and ancient Achaeans (I especially enjoy how books can be a link to Achaea's distant past for example).  

    Also, on the topic of culture, I'll remind you that taste is subjective, not objective, so, I would certainly not count the fact that Vayne can't choose between Mhaldor or Cyrene to completely discount his statement. I personally believe Cyrene has more culture but then that's my opinion based on my own personal taste and bias but that doesn't mean Mhaldor isn't a strong contender and may actually be a clear winner in the eyes of the majority for all I know.
  • edited December 2012
    Kaden said:

    >_> I don't know about you but I actually publish my Bardics in game. In a sense, yeah, it doesn't matter since I'd probably still publish crap in game anyway but actually getting rewards other than seeing your work in city/org/order libraries (Kaden has books in Cyrene, Scarlatti's Order and the Kindred) is a pretty nice OOC encouragement. I suppose it is true that you could keep publishing Bardics without logging in but thinking that way is more an attitude problem rather than actually making good use of a rather nice OOC mechanic in game. I would also argue your point about Art having no place. Being human ensures that Art will have a place, especially in a game that's supposed to simulate communities and ideologies and there ARE people who like staying in the musty libraries just reading the collective works of current and ancient Achaeans (I especially enjoy how books can be a link to Achaea's distant past for example).  

    Also, on the topic of culture, I'll remind you that taste is subjective, not objective, so, I would certainly not count the fact that Vayne can't choose between Mhaldor or Cyrene to completely discount his statement. I personally believe Cyrene has more culture but then that's my opinion based on my own personal taste and bias but that doesn't mean Mhaldor isn't a strong contender and may actually be a clear winner in the eyes of the majority for all I know.
    @Kaden - Haven't gone as far as publishing, but I do make a point of giving 'good' work to people who might appreciate it IGly.  As I say, I'm not saying that I don't like the Bardic, I'm saying that it doesn't move things up in the same way as, say, the combat rankings. Again, that's not a complaint, merely an observation.

    Also, on the point of culture being subjective, that's precisely my point.  Neither city has the 'best artistic culture' as per Vayne's comment, hence the fact that not even he can say which is best.  'Who's the best fighter in Achaea?' will generate a far shorter, more confident, and more consistent list of names than 'Who's the best artist in Achaea?'.
    Tvistor: If that was a troll, it was masterful.
    I take my hat off to you.
  • @sylvance

    And I don't see a problem since it's like comparing apples and oranges. Just because who's best in combat makes it easier to quantify doesn't mean that Art doesn't have any merit, even if for no other reason than to solidify the friendships/communities formed by people. The relative value is different but it doesn't make either aimless. 

    Yes, there's a bigger focus on PVP but Achaea is still, after all, a sandbox game and I've seen many people lead content in game lives without once ever touching PVP and still gain prominence within their own respective communities. 

    And even though the list would be more consistent, I'm not confident it'd be 100% clear cut who the best fighter in Achaea would be. There'd be a list of top fighters and it'd be more clear who they are but it's easier to be more exposed to all the fighters than to read all the artistic output in game. It may not be where a good chunk of the focus is but that doesn't mean there aren't people who find that aspect of the game fulfilling.
  • @Kaden - Okay, I'll agree to disagree on this one. I'm quite aware that I'm not expressing myself very clearly (which is ironic in an exchange about what makes good Art!).
    Tvistor: If that was a troll, it was masterful.
    I take my hat off to you.
  • Was it comprised entirely of the written word?

    If yes, was it interesting?

    If yes, it was good Achaean Art.
  • AerekAerek East Tennessee, USA
    Kaden said:

    And I don't see a problem since it's like comparing apples and oranges. Just because who's best in combat makes it easier to quantify doesn't mean that Art doesn't have any merit, even if for no other reason than to solidify the friendships/communities formed by people. The relative value is different but it doesn't make either aimless.
    I agree with this statement. I think Cyrene is and has always been the "City of Art," you just can't "prove" art prowess with deathsights and kill counts like you can with combat prowess, so everyone has their own opinion on that. It's like trying to "prove" Leonardo da Vinci was better than Michelangelo, or that Apple is better than Microsoft. You can compile facts that try to illustrate your points, like Microsoft posting its first ever quarterly loss in 2012, or the recurring trend of Cyrenians in the Bardic/Artisianal winners, but ultimately you can't "prove" an opinion.

    Just because there isn't a hard-coded "Artist Ranking" doesn't mean artists go unrecognized or Cyrene goes unknown as a cultural powerhouse.
    -- Grounded in but one perspective, what we perceive is an exaggeration of the truth.
  • Ah, Kaden. Forever the voice of reasonability in my life. I don't even bother arguing with him anymore, he literally will always win.

    I have seen quite a few comments in this thread that really irked me as a player that has a character in Eleusis and one in Cyrene.

    People tend to think that their own thoughts are the right ones and the only ones. In Eleusis, clearly the only way to serve Nature is through combat, right? Wrong. Yet those that do not fight (Idelisa is morally opposed to Nature defense) but she is looked down upon and judged ICly (apathetic/lazy) and OOCly (doesn't wanna lose exp) when I have very clear cut RP reasons not to.

    I share this because I think it's a good example of exactly what Kaden said. Basically that just because people aren't doing what you are passionate about doesn't mean that they are apathetic or lazy or whatever.

    Now take my Cyrenian character. She doesn't attend Senate meetings because I can't play Tuesday nights and on the rare occasions that I can, I am too late. When I -did- attend I/she went to learn. And yet someone earlier said that her attendance is pointless because she didn't speak up. On a different subject, she is trying to get into @Scarlatti's order because her IC experiences dropped her there. OOCly however I am not creative, an artist, a poet or anything of the sort and its a genuine challenge for me. Despite trying dozens of times I have only been able to come up with one piece. But people could find her lack of works (especially those that are naturals) to be her being lazy.

    tl;dr - a lot of these arguments are dumb and are simply people saying "my way is the right way and if you don't do xyz thing then you are lazy/apathetic" when in reality we all are just different.
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  • I think you dragged out what I was using as an example. But I do disagree with you. Ide serves nature and she is very active in the community. Does that make her less a part of the community because she does not subscribe to normal beliefs? It means she won't move up, sure but this topic isn't about advancement. It's about involvement and perceived apathy.

    I think you demonstrated my point quite well. There are many ways to contribute to a community without doing what the mainstream does or what one particular group of people feels is an acceptable way of participating.

    Also, you are right. RPing extremists would make someone say "my way is the right way" but that's not at all what I was referring to. I was pointing out comments in this thread that suggested PLAYERS finding those that do not participate in their activity to be apathetic.
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  • Not sure if trolling... or trying to be funny...
    image
    When Canada rules the world,
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