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Classleads

KresslackKresslack Florida, United StatesPosts: 5,665Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
So, classleads are open, and so I guess if people want to discuss various submissions, they can do so here. For instance, I' m wondering about 60 for Hamstring:

Report #60
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Submitted by: Strata         Status      : Submitted
Skill       : Striking       Ability     : Hamstring
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Problem:
Contrary to pinshot and tentacles, the evade ability has no chance of countering the effect of 
hamstring.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Solution #1:
Change hamstring to work the same as pinshot/tentacles, giving one the possibility of escape or 
simply evading while under its effect.
Solution #2:
Change pinshot and tentacles to work the same as hamstring, where evade cannot counter them at all.
Solution #3:
Change hamstring/pinshot/tentacles (and all other similar room movement hindering abilities) to add 
a random chance of success or failure when using evade.

As I understand it, you can evade away after Pinshot and Tentacles because they're not specifically designed to counter Evade. Hamstring is. Is is annoying for people who have Evade? Certainly. But then again, Evade is one of the most annoying skills ever for people who don't have it (and even for some people who do). I just don't see how or why this is necessary. Putting them all on an even level doesn't make sense, because why would Pinshot (designed to stop use the use wings) counter Evade? 


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Comments

  • NimNim Posts: 2,015Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited April 2014
    Hamstring's pretty carefully balanced. You can keep it up indefinitely if you want, but it comes at the cost of offensive hindering, and there are at least a dozen ways of getting around it, some (okay probably just) one of which serpents can do pretty easily with just Subterfuge. Comparing it to tentacles seems silly - I dunno how long tentacles stays up for, but it stays up for a lot longer than hamstring does, and with hamstring strikes, you know exactly when you're leaving the room.

    Evade is pretty OP, but I feel like tentacles getting anti-evade might be a bit strong. I'm not sure how easy it is to maintain tentacles, but given @Jinsun puts it up knowing I have two ways of getting past it (and I don't even have a RoF), I can't imagine it's that difficult. Not sure how pinshot works, but if it's comparable to hamstring, I don't see why not.

    Regarding option 3: please, less RNG on blademaster, not more. :(

    These have been the opinions of a mid-tier combatant. Please, try not to rage too much at my desire to give input into game mechanics that I haven't fully mastered to @Sena levels of encyclopediac knowledge. :c
  • AchimrstAchimrst NaturePosts: 3,608Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    didn't the last thread about classleads get shut down by @Tecton?
  • RomRom Posts: 515Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    edited April 2014
    efb
    Chat with other players in real time on your phone, browser, or desktop client:
    Come join the Achaea discord!
  • CaladbolgCaladbolg Campbell County TNPosts: 1,126Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Nim said:
    Hamstring's pretty carefully balanced. You can keep it up indefinitely if you want, but it comes at the cost of offensive hindering, and there are at least a dozen ways of getting around it, some (okay probably just) one of which serpents can do pretty easily with just Subterfuge. Comparing it to tentacles seems silly - I dunno how long tentacles stays up for, but it stays up for a lot longer than hamstring does, and with hamstring strikes, you know exactly when you're leaving the room.

    Evade is pretty OP, but I feel like tentacles getting anti-evade might be a bit strong. I'm not sure how easy it is to maintain tentacles, but given @Jinsun puts it up knowing I have two ways of getting past it (and I don't even have a RoF), I can't imagine it's that difficult. Not sure how pinshot works, but if it's comparable to hamstring, I don't see why not.

    Regarding option 3: please, less RNG on blademaster, not more. :(

    These have been the opinions of a mid-tier combatant. Please, try not to rage too much at my desire to give input into game mechanics that I haven't fully mastered to @Sena levels of encyclopediac knowledge. :c
    Tentacles = piety/grave hands.

    Hamstring is a class ability that every city can have, Ashtan just doesn't have many bms. personally saying I don't see any real reason other classes need a way to get past hamstring, and also considering that hamstring just slows someone down from running but doesn't stop them. And Blademasters lack lunge or other room attacks of the such making it pretty balanced. in my personal opinion for blade master 1v1 and as utility against evade (Which again only two classes have so it's not like it's really needed on the mainstream level)

    And honestly why would 
    hange hamstring to work the same as pinshot/tentacles, giving one the possibility of escape or 
    simply evading while under its effect.

    Help anyways why would you attempt to do something that's going to fail when you could just walk out on a 1 second balance per movement. Unless the idea is to remove hamstrings slowing ability as it is and just incorporate it into another piety/gravehands/tentacles/pinshot/frozen ground/banna peel which honestly I think we have enough of at the moment.

    ----

    Not trying to be a dick I just don't see the point in this class lead. feel free to enlighten me 

    CaoimhaenAntidas
  • NimNim Posts: 2,015Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    @Caladbolg: I'm honestly of the opinion that more anti-movement abilities should be deterministic ala hamstring. It's not entirely impossible to escape while hamstrung, either.
  • NaahNaah Posts: 235Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    I personally see hamstring as a big:
    Oh you poor thing, look at you not able to get back on your horse.
    plaugh
    <Breaklegs/slash/twist*3/finisher>
    NimCaoimhaenStrata
  • JinsunJinsun TN, USAPosts: 2,841Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Caladbolg said:
    Nim said:
    Hamstring's pretty carefully balanced. You can keep it up indefinitely if you want, but it comes at the cost of offensive hindering, and there are at least a dozen ways of getting around it, some (okay probably just) one of which serpents can do pretty easily with just Subterfuge. Comparing it to tentacles seems silly - I dunno how long tentacles stays up for, but it stays up for a lot longer than hamstring does, and with hamstring strikes, you know exactly when you're leaving the room.

    Evade is pretty OP, but I feel like tentacles getting anti-evade might be a bit strong. I'm not sure how easy it is to maintain tentacles, but given @Jinsun puts it up knowing I have two ways of getting past it (and I don't even have a RoF), I can't imagine it's that difficult. Not sure how pinshot works, but if it's comparable to hamstring, I don't see why not.

    Regarding option 3: please, less RNG on blademaster, not more. :(

    These have been the opinions of a mid-tier combatant. Please, try not to rage too much at my desire to give input into game mechanics that I haven't fully mastered to @Sena levels of encyclopediac knowledge. :c
    Tentacles = piety/grave hands.

    Hamstring is a class ability that every city can have, Ashtan just doesn't have many bms. personally saying I don't see any real reason other classes need a way to get past hamstring, and also considering that hamstring just slows someone down from running but doesn't stop them. And Blademasters lack lunge or other room attacks of the such making it pretty balanced. in my personal opinion for blade master 1v1 and as utility against evade (Which again only two classes have so it's not like it's really needed on the mainstream level)

    And honestly why would 
    hange hamstring to work the same as pinshot/tentacles, giving one the possibility of escape or 
    simply evading while under its effect.

    Help anyways why would you attempt to do something that's going to fail when you could just walk out on a 1 second balance per movement. Unless the idea is to remove hamstrings slowing ability as it is and just incorporate it into another piety/gravehands/tentacles/pinshot/frozen ground/banna peel which honestly I think we have enough of at the moment.

    ----

    Not trying to be a dick I just don't see the point in this class lead. feel free to enlighten me 
    First off, there is a significant difference between tentacles and piety/gravehands. I can't drop it in every room that we're fighting in. Sure it's mobile, but if you get out, you are straight up gone. I think people want Blademaster evade nerfed because, they're not a momentum or burst class, they're essentially a prep class. So, even a weakass blademaster could evade constantly while prepping and get a kill on a veteran opponent, not because he's skilled but because the other person had no way to hinder him. It's kind of shit. 
    image
  • CaladbolgCaladbolg Campbell County TNPosts: 1,126Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    edited April 2014
    Nim said:
    @Caladbolg: I'm honestly of the opinion that more anti-movement abilities should be deterministic ala hamstring. It's not entirely impossible to escape while hamstrung, either.
    P much I died like twice today because typing north on tentacles didn't do.. anything.. and flying just causes tentacle triggers.

    But I also prefer that different classes have different flavors instead of the same mechanics.

    On that note I had an idea Might as well ask about balancing issues since im not that great at serpy 1v1

    Repurpose pinshot to be a match of hamstring without the unable to mount effect. this being said allow it to be used after a dstab.  with the nine second keep up time this in theory would slow down serpent momentum to keep up the hindering. And also allow both classes with evade an ability to stop evade.

    Nim
  • NimNim Posts: 2,015Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Caladbolg said:
    But I also prefer that different classes have different flavors instead of the same mechanics.
    Yeah, I can agree with that notion. Still, there's a lot of ways to do deterministic. Like, maybe tentacles could have some weird window of time where you move, and they're like NO, but if you move again after X seconds but before Y seconds, you can move yay.

    Or it could be that you have to trick the tentacles up, by committing to moving in one direction (at the cost of balance, or maybe just getting a message about how you're being molested by an occultist that keeps you from trying again right away), and then moving another direction within X seconds of the first attempt (like 5-10), giving it potential kill room properties, and making it dangerous against people who panic, while having a cool flavor that most hardcore combatants automate a solution around anyway.
  • DaeirDaeir AustraliaPosts: 6,276Member, Secret Squirrel @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Pinshot's not really at all reliable, especially if it's supposedly designed to counter duanathar, which it does terribly. Stuttering is far better at that.

    I have mixed feelings about pinshot, partly because I've used it so often and not had a single instance where I've gone "yeah, that was worth the balance to use". I also don't like homogenizing unique mechanics, either. Hamstring has the benefit that it is easy to renew at the expense of offensive/affliction capacity. Pinshot essentially halts your affliction capacity for the bal time, but you can supplement that with smart illusions.

    I don't know. Do any of the Serpents that 1v1 a lot find themselves using pinshot much? Paging @Strata and co.
  • StrataStrata United States of DerpPosts: 1,753Member @ - Epic Achaean
    edited April 2014
    Daeir said:
    Pinshot's not really at all reliable, especially if it's supposedly designed to counter duanathar, which it does terribly. Stuttering is far better at that.

    I have mixed feelings about pinshot, partly because I've used it so often and not had a single instance where I've gone "yeah, that was worth the balance to use". I also don't like homogenizing unique mechanics, either. Hamstring has the benefit that it is easy to renew at the expense of offensive/affliction capacity. Pinshot essentially halts your affliction capacity for the bal time, but you can supplement that with smart illusions.

    I don't know. Do any of the Serpents that 1v1 a lot find themselves using pinshot much? Paging @Strata and co.
    The only time I use pinshot is if someone in raid party tells me to. It's useless otherwise. Leap, mountjump, evade completely bypass pinshot it seems. I put in a classlead for hamstring that had 3 solutions that involved what I hope will balance pinshot/tentacles and hamstring. I would like to see hamstring left alone and pinshot/tentacles beefed up a bit. This would make both occies and serpents happy vs. BM/serpent because evade working 100% on pinshot means there's really no point in using it vs. serps and BM. They've evaded before you regain balance. As far as other classes go, it's kind of meh. For serpent 1v1, pinshot is usually better off unused in my opinion. Time much better spent going for lock than trying to stop someone from leaving the room.
    image
  • TvistorTvistor Posts: 2,883Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    What the hell is pinshot
    The quickest way to a woman's heart is through her ribcage.
  • KresslackKresslack Florida, United StatesPosts: 5,665Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Tvistor said:
    What the hell is pinshot
    New thing in Subterfuge that allows you to prevent people from using wings for about 20 secs.


  • StrataStrata United States of DerpPosts: 1,753Member @ - Epic Achaean
    Anyway the reason I put that lead in there is because I hope to see either hamstring getting changed to allow evade to work OR leave hamstring the same and beef up pinshot/tentacles to hinder evade too.
    Hopefully one is chosen that appeals all classes if the lead gets accepted. Otherwise, evade eventually going to get a nerf once admins are sick of people crying about it.
    image
  • JovoloJovolo EnglandPosts: 3,124Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Tentacles is fine. Pinshot should stop remounting ala hamstring, but everything else should stay as is. I don't get where the idea that it's "terrible" comes from at stopping duanathar. It's the same as gravehands/piety in that respect, as it's just 33% chance to block movement apart from white-listed abilities such as evade right?


    Terra
  • RangorRangor Posts: 3,010Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Tvistor said:
    What the hell is pinshot
    it's true name is kneeshot.
    image
    KresslackAntidasTvistorSiduri
  • AchimrstAchimrst NaturePosts: 3,608Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Rangor said:
    Tvistor said:
    What the hell is pinshot
    it's true name is kneeshot.
    image
    AradorBluef
  • ValdusValdus AustraliaPosts: 598Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Report #28
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Submitted by: Dunn           Status      : Submitted
    Skill       : Elementalism   Ability     : Viridian
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    Problem:
    Sylvans do a lot of damage now. They were given the +2 intellect scaling when their damage was typed
    as cutting. Now that it is magical, the free two intellect is really putting their damage into the
    border near crazy.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Solution #1:
    Remove the +2 intellect bonus from Viridian
    Solution #2:
    Solution #3:
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    I personally think not even trying to come up with other solutions aside from "NERF NERF NERF" simply because you don't like the damage is a poor classlead. Tell me @Dunn why didn't you include other things like "Change the damage type of Sylvans to something other than Magic damage."

    Simply removing 10% of Sylvans damage, when they're a damage based class, sounds to me like it'd pretty much screw over non artifacted Sylvans. Now, wasn't that the argument for not nerfing Monk damage?

    Viva la Bluef.
    AchimrstBluefDartegaMithridatesWessux
  • JarrodJarrod Posts: 2,973Member, Seafaring Liason @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Sylvan isn't a damaged base class...

    Thornrend is a limb prep skill primarily, not a damage kill skill.
    image
    Cascades of quicksilver light streak across the firmament as the celestial voice of Ourania intones, "Oh Jarrod..."

    ValdusAchimrstRangor
  • JovoloJovolo EnglandPosts: 3,124Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited April 2014
    But considering Heartseed's weaknesses, Damage is a necessary fall-back and dynamic of Sylvan combat. 

    I agree that it is currently too much, but more mitigation should be looked at rather than a flat nerf to the unique bonus of Viridian.
    ValdusExelethrilMelodieRangor
  • ValdusValdus AustraliaPosts: 598Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    edited April 2014

    Jovolo said:
    But considering Heartseed's weaknesses, Damage is a necessary fall-back and dynamic of Sylvan combat. 

    I agree that it is currently too much, but more mitigation should be looked at rather than a flat nerf to the unique bonus of Viridian.
    This. Perhaps it is slightly too much, but screwing non artifacted Sylvans over by removing 10% of their damage is not the way to go about it, and the lack of other Solutions provided by @Dunn in my opinion simply shows bias and being fed up by being smashed with ouchies by offensively artifacted Sylvans.

    I highly doubt unartifacted Sylvan damage is too much.
    Jarrod said:
    Sylvan isn't a damaged base class...

    Thornrend is a limb prep skill primarily, not a damage kill skill.
    It either kills through Heartseed, or kills through Damage. Removing one of Sylvans two viable kill methods sounds like pretty crappy game design to me.

    Viva la Bluef.
  • MakariosMakarios Posts: 1,712Administrator Achaean staff
    Jovolo is correct. Pinshot is essentially single target gravehands/piety/tentacles (so weaker alchemist torso). I'm not sure why you'd not use it. Its actually superior in a lot of ways as it persists even if they get out of the room.
    Arador
  • DunnDunn The great Buffalo tundraPosts: 5,764Member, Secret Squirrel @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited April 2014
    Uh unartifacted thornrend hits for about 1500. Not sure why this thread is necessary to call people out on their classleads; censures and endorsements exist for a reason.

    Why make a post to call out my bias? I don't even raid Eleusis or even fight Sylvans. Changing their damage type back to cutting or blunt would be a revert back to what they were damage wise. Leaving it as magical at least leaves it possible to scale with int artifacts such as collar and +int arties. Why would you want to go back to cutting where it would scale with neither? @Valdus you should do some research before you offer up something like that.


    RangorWessux
  • JarrodJarrod Posts: 2,973Member, Seafaring Liason @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Sylvan is not a damage class. There aren't damage classes. There are classes that kill via damage, but that is heavy attacks based on limb prep.

    Damage classes are not a viable plan because of the huge variability in offensive capability and defensive capability to damage. Occasionally pure damage kills work when there's a high variance in those two (via levels and artefacts).

    Artefacted Sylvan damage is so high with prep that even defensive oriented people cannot tank the prep damage of the class. That means it's probably tuned too high after the prior buffs. If you want a 'damage' way for Sylvan to kill, look for a way to capitalize on the prepped limbs in a way other than heartseed,  not a way to make their standard attacks do more damage. This means think of ways to use those limbs, not saying that something exists to abuse broken limbs for Sylvan.
    image
    Cascades of quicksilver light streak across the firmament as the celestial voice of Ourania intones, "Oh Jarrod..."

    KuyDartegaRangor
  • KuyKuy Posts: 1,497Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Jarrod said:
    Sylvan is not a damage class. There aren't damage classes. There are classes that kill via damage, but that is heavy attacks based on limb prep.

    Damage classes are not a viable plan because of the huge variability in offensive capability and defensive capability to damage. Occasionally pure damage kills work when there's a high variance in those two (via levels and artefacts).

    Artefacted Sylvan damage is so high with prep that even defensive oriented people cannot tank the prep damage of the class. That means it's probably tuned too high after the prior buffs. If you want a 'damage' way for Sylvan to kill, look for a way to capitalize on the prepped limbs in a way other than heartseed,  not a way to make their standard attacks do more damage. This means think of ways to use those limbs, not saying that something exists to abuse broken limbs for Sylvan.
    Just to put it into perspective:

    Runewardens can often kill with damage.  However, a smart Runewarden must sketch a couple thurisaz, sketch hugalaz, then hinder the target from running or touching shield with leg/arm breaks and gular.

    Magi can even more often kill with damage.  However, a Magi requires a prepped vibe stack, potentially a few limb breaks, and perhaps a holocaust.  If these things don't work, they can use Retardation to help with the damage.

    In their current incarnation, Sylvans just have to lean on their thornrend alias and watch as the target melts.  There's a but of a discrepancy here.
    [2:41:24 AM] Kenway: I bet you smell like evergreen trees and you could wrestle boreal mammals but they'd rather just cuddle you
  • JovoloJovolo EnglandPosts: 3,124Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited April 2014
    That isn't really a fair comparison Kuy. You have to consider what bonuses a Sylvan needs to achieve that state - comparitvely, the same bonuses will cause just as much imbalance in damage for Monks and Magi too. It's just that those two are more easily escaped from or hindered, whereas Thornrend and Wildgrowth and Freeze Ground make for an almost un-winnable situation. Details like that are important, because it will affect the ideas and overhauls that are generated as a result. 
    Kuy
  • KafzielKafziel Posts: 658Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Could decrease thornrend base damage but keep +2 int, and increase damage when heartseed is cured with broken limbs (last I tested it was fairly inconsequential). Gives them a damage strat when heartseed fails but reduces the lolrend options
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