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Mining and Legions

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  • Sarapis
    Sarapis Member, Administrator Posts: 3,409 Achaean staff
    Sasiya said:
    EDIT:
    The point of my post was more "creating a deeply complex and interesting commodity system that only a few percent of the playerbase will profit from isn't nearly as awesome as a system where as many people as wanted to could get involved if they desired" than "let's create a new deepsea fishing system for metals". I genuinely believe that including more people than less is the best approach to creating an actual community based around game. I'd rather see a sort of western gold rush thing where lots of people participate and earn profit (ranging from small profits to really good profits) than a mining magnate oligarchy, because I believe the former works better in the sort of multiplayer game that Achaea is while the latter only benefits a select few players.

    A western gold rush type thing is exactly what we have, except our system is substantially more inclusive. Only a tiny, tiny % of the "player population" of the US participated in the gold rush. Also worth pointing out that most of them either made very little or lost money doing it, and that by 1855 or so, only groups working together as partnerships could profitably extract gold comms from the ground.

    I do not believe that every system should or needs to be inclusive of everyone who plays, nor do I believe that's good game design in a world-y game. Single player games, sure, but everybody isn't going to get to be a city leader, or a mining magnate, or the head of a religious Order, etc in a massively multiplayer game like this. 

    PraxidesTaelKyrraDochitha
  • Sarapis
    Sarapis Member, Administrator Posts: 3,409 Achaean staff

    Sasiya said:
    For some reason, I always sort of assumed that more gold in player hands = more credits being bought off the market. I guess economics isn't my strong side.
    More gold in players hands = gold is less valuable to players.
    PraxidesDochitha
  • Sarapis
    Sarapis Member, Administrator Posts: 3,409 Achaean staff
    Daeir said:

    I do lament the loss of a mercenary style system where people could rent out their legions for offensive or defensive purposes on mines/strongholds. I think it would add a lot of depth and bring a lot more interaction into the system. Right now it seems so very.. detached from all factional/organizational connections, which seems pointless to me.
    Completely by design. Everything doesn't have to be about the cities. It's clearly not pointless to the people participating given the high demand for the system!
    SkyePraxidesTaelKakotas
  • Skye
    Skye The Duchess BellatereMember, Seafaring Liason Posts: 3,171 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I'm grateful that the mining system isn't wholly attached to factional conflict. You do see some traces of it, people of city A deliberately (sometimes inadvisably) attacking mines belonging to people from city B. But if it went all out, I get the feeling that rogue miners like myself would get completely shut out. :/


    SarapisKasyaPraxidesLisbethae
  • Xinna
    Xinna Member Posts: 691 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean

    I think it's nice that you don't -have- to be in a faction to be involved, but I also don't see why most of what @Daeir described cannot happen in the current system, with respect to people grouping together and trying to control certain resources or areas, etc. I know Mhaldor has a mining clan where we somewhat coordinate our efforts, and I also know that we could do even more in that regard, if we wanted to.

    I guess I don't see the benefit to being able to have a legion without having miners. There'd still be a limited number of soldiers that could be trained at once, so for the most part, you'd still have to get your own mine to train up your legion (since most people would just put their own legion in their own mine, because why not? More benefit for them). Otherwise, everything you mentioned exists. You can attack people for other people for gold, etc. Your city or friends can certainly help you get started with mining (telling you where lodes are and giving you comms/gold for soldiers and to build a mine). So, you basically -can- train up an army with 0 effort and expense, if others choose to handle it for you. And then later use the army to help them.

    Praxides
  • Alyana
    Alyana Member Posts: 44 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited September 2015
    Sarapis said:
    Tharvis said:
    Mostly the part where people are greedy and credits won't drop below 6K per credit regardless of the credit market saturation - and people are currently selling credits 'lower' for quick gold, to buy the commodities. So yes, prices would rise slightly, most likely.
    That's not greedy, it's just supply and demand. You may as well accuse people who won't pay 8k/credit of being greedy because they won't part with their gold at that price.
    This strikes me as a pretty good example of why classical economic models can be a bit limited, really. Prices can be sticky, and certainly are when buyers/sellers are so abundant that there's no room for experimentation.

    People buying and selling credits aren't making pricing decisions because they know how much everyone else is willing to buy and sell for, they're basing it off of what people consider "normal." The credit market changing substantially will require a shift in people's perceptions of prices more then it will require a change in actual supply and demand, which will probably take sustained and significant upwards or downwards pressure on the market.
    TharvisDairon
  • Sarapis
    Sarapis Member, Administrator Posts: 3,409 Achaean staff
    Yep, that is probably true. 
  • Lisbethae
    Lisbethae Member Posts: 176 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    When I started playing, normal gold per credit ratio was 4000.
  • Tael
    Tael Member Posts: 1,197 @ - Epic Achaean
    edited September 2015
    Lisbethae said:
    When I started playing, normal gold per credit ratio was 4000.
    I think it was ~2500 when I started. Now it just seems kind of nuts.

    But then like a third of active players are dragons now, so I guess that's not so surprising.
    Tharvis
  • Aegoth
    Aegoth Member Posts: 2,957 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    How about that coal shortage?
  • Draekar
    Draekar Member Posts: 314 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    17 coal lodes spawned this month, following two large spawns last month. Delos coal price has dropped and there is a lot out there and being mined right now.
  • Tecton
    Tecton The Garden of the GodsAdministrator Posts: 2,507 Admin
    Tael said:
    Lisbethae said:
    When I started playing, normal gold per credit ratio was 4000.
    I think it was ~2500 when I started. Now it just seems kind of nuts.

    But then like a third of active players are dragons now, so I guess that's not so surprising.
    We posted about this earlier this year, but you'll usually see an increase in in-game credit prices when there's globes for sale, as people don't really buy a lot of credits when there promotions happen. Especially in a scenario like the most recent sale, which lasted 2 RL months, the price will go up, as there's not as many new credits coming in! This usually rectifies itself pretty quickly, like it is doing right now.
  • Draekar
    Draekar Member Posts: 314 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Draekar said:
    17 coal lodes spawned this month, following two large spawns last month. Delos coal price has dropped and there is a lot out there and being mined right now.
    Add to that another 25 coal lodes just earlier. I on't think there will be a coal shortage this month at least!
  • Synbios
    Synbios Member Posts: 4,634 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Watchman said:
    Can just set some of the children on fire, problem solved.
    Sorry, they're all waterlogged from their stint in the sea. Makes for poor tinder.

    Kakotas
  • Kakotas
    Kakotas Member Posts: 274 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    @Draekar @Synbios -Did I miss something and someone do sparkles during a ceremony? that's dark for both of you...

    As far as mining goes I think there really eventually should be a practical way to level legions or to buy more experienced legions (ahem island locations where you can hire more experienced legions (costs go up and prices skyrocket but payout is that they are higher level to begin with or a special type that does slightly more damage)). If not perhaps legions being able to be levelled by one at a time following you around and sapping XP at a high rate. Just so we don't see domination of the market or complacency with someone having a large mine stacked.
    (Blades of Valour): He just has that Synbios Swagger enough said.
    (Blades of Valour): Draekar says: "Synbios if sunbeams sparkle off that I'll kill you where you stand."

    (Party) Halos says, "Disbar?"
    (Party) Draekar says, "You know here we have disbar."
    (Party) Draekar says, "And over there we have datbar."
  • Syri
    Syri Member Posts: 48 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Sarapis said:
    Draekar said:
    Draekar said:
    17 coal lodes spawned this month, following two large spawns last month. Delos coal price has dropped and there is a lot out there and being mined right now.
    Add to that another 25 coal lodes just earlier. I on't think there will be a coal shortage this month at least!
    Thank god. I worry about the children in the poor quarter freezing to death.
    They can't afford that coal anyways!
  • Morthif
    Morthif Member Posts: 1,747 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Syri said:
    Sarapis said:
    Draekar said:
    Draekar said:
    17 coal lodes spawned this month, following two large spawns last month. Delos coal price has dropped and there is a lot out there and being mined right now.
    Add to that another 25 coal lodes just earlier. I on't think there will be a coal shortage this month at least!
    Thank god. I worry about the children in the poor quarter freezing to death.
    They can't afford that coal anyways!
    there be some cheap coal on the market keeping us fatcats from making more money off the insufferable poor
  • Greys
    Greys Member, Seafaring Liason Posts: 781 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    @Morthif How? You buy the cheap coal and resell it.
    Kakotas
  • Kakotas
    Kakotas Member Posts: 274 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Daeir said:
    I suppose you just have to weigh the amount of people that benefits as opposed to the alternate.

    Regardless, I don't think the system is bad by any means. Pointless was probably the wrong word to use. It's nice to see an actual thriving market for commodities now. I can't help but have grand visions for what it could be, but that's just how things are, I guess.
    we still have yet to see the pk rulings and player driven clans if they started clashing what that would lead to city wise. This could very much end up an area of contention. Right now most people are still learning the basics. Have to do that before we go off on tangents.
    (Blades of Valour): He just has that Synbios Swagger enough said.
    (Blades of Valour): Draekar says: "Synbios if sunbeams sparkle off that I'll kill you where you stand."

    (Party) Halos says, "Disbar?"
    (Party) Draekar says, "You know here we have disbar."
    (Party) Draekar says, "And over there we have datbar."
  • Morthif
    Morthif Member Posts: 1,747 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Greys said:
    @Morthif How? You buy the cheap coal and resell it.
    it's all a sham. I'm so broke I can't afford to run a market
  • Tahquil
    Tahquil Member Posts: 4,579 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Can mines collapsing put the comms in your rift instead of inventory? I sometimes jump online just to send a message without bothering to check my own and end up dumping a lode's worth on the ground. I mean, we can refine refine directly from/to our rifts so having the comms delivered to your rift if a mine collapses while you are offline doesn't seem that much of a stretch.
    RangorExelethril
  • Taraus
    Taraus The Gypsy WindMember, Seafaring Liason Posts: 890 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Tahquil said:
    Can mines collapsing put the comms in your rift instead of inventory? I sometimes jump online just to send a message without bothering to check my own and end up dumping a lode's worth on the ground. I mean, we can refine refine directly from/to our rifts so having the comms delivered to your rift if a mine collapses while you are offline doesn't seem that much of a stretch.
    The biggest issue I have with this is the excess commodities will just drop anyhow when your rift is full.

    Not saying it isn't a problem, I've had it happen to me before, too, which is why I've taken to only qq'ing in what I know are safe zones.

    But what about something akin to letter delivery? Where there's an actual, physical thing you see when the commodities get deposited into your hands?

    KyrraTahquil
  • Skye
    Skye The Duchess BellatereMember, Seafaring Liason Posts: 3,171 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Comm market is starting to feel a bit... saturated. Certain things get used up at a steady rate like steel/coal/etc, but I liked it a bit better when we weren't getting flooded by coal lode. Before we needed to think a bit more strategically about what to refine/what to sell, now it's just back to lolol building random lodes. :/

    Also wondering if admin have any plans to artificially induce shortages/raise demand for underused comms through mini events etc just to shake things up a bit. 


  • Tahquil
    Tahquil Member Posts: 4,579 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    We just can't be satisfied..

    THERE'S NOT ENOUGH COMMS TO GO AROUND, TWEAK IT UP!
    OH GOD THE COAL, THERE'S TO MUCH!
    WHERE HAS ALL THE COAL GONE?

    This is why @Sarapis drinks. He'd give you guys multiclass but he's so blotto he doesn't know which of the three red buttons swimming in front of him to push.


    KakotasRhasta
  • Skye
    Skye The Duchess BellatereMember, Seafaring Liason Posts: 3,171 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    In my defence, I mentioned that "I'd like more coal" but went on to point out that the lack of coal was adding incentive to strategise. I was very neutral on it. 


  • Siduri
    Siduri Member Posts: 1,619 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I'm okay with the coal.
    If you have too much, or can't profit from it, let it despawn. nbd

    image
  • Tahquil
    Tahquil Member Posts: 4,579 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Sorry @Skye I didn't mean to single you out. I meant it was the pattern of the last few pages by various people making tweak requests.
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