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If you were a newbie combatant....

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  • XithXith Member Posts: 2,602 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Iocun said:
    Ew, all this clinging overly long to a metaphor is making me sick. Let's talk about Achaea again...
    image
    I like my steak like I like my Magic cards: mythic rare.
    Sylvance
  • SeftinSeftin Member Posts: 923 @ - Epic Achaean
    Iocun said:


    Seftin said:

    I'm against server side curing in any form. Especially passive server side curing.

    Why?

    because one of the most enjoyable things about achaea is the sense of risk. If you add server side autosippers or curing, you reduce it to not being "dont go near that basilisk till you understand how paralysis works and about sipping" to just buying one of everything and being fine from the offset. To me as an old zmud player when i first started playing i knew nothing, has no idea what a trigger was etc, i then got killed by jarik when he raided the old sorcerers guild in hashan, i died because i had no clue the fun then started because i then scripted my own auto sipper, learnt about scripting from Ic friends but in an ooc format, this led to stronger ties between us and then to making them into ooc friends. This doesnt make sense.

    Tl dr.
    Short version server side curing would kill my sense of imersion. Just have people pointed towards the forums for systems. Dont kill the magic by having achaea start slowly curing your afflictions wi th out any input on your part.

  • SylvanceSylvance Member Posts: 1,477 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    The benefit of Houses also being that they know which classes they're talking to.  'How should you react to a soft-lock?' has a markedly different answer depending on if you're a Bard or a Blademaster. Same could be said for 'Which herbs should you have outrifted in combat?' and a number of other things.

    I'm also interested by the fact that this thread seems to keep coming back to curing and healing.  I really do think that offense/strategy is also a huge barrier for newbies, and one that most systems can't really help with.
    Tvistor: If that was a troll, it was masterful.
    I take my hat off to you.
  • IocunIocun Member Posts: 3,695 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Seftin said:
    Short version server side curing would kill my sense of imersion. Just have people pointed towards the forums for systems. Dont kill the magic by having achaea start slowly curing your afflictions wi th out any input on your part.
    This seems a little strange to me. Why would it being server-side (and possibly with nice RP flavour) make it more immersion breaking than being pointed to client-side scripts? How can you "keep the magic" through working on scripts in a mud client?

    As for your point of "risk" and such a change making you "fine from the offset" - that's not a server-side vs client-side question. You can be perfectly fine from the offset with client-side scripts, and the cheapness of public curing systems really encourages it. If anything, it being server-side would give more control over when people get access to what, and thus possibly retain said "risk" a bit longer.
    DelphinusShirszaeSylvance
  • FrohFroh Member Posts: 53 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Iocun said:
    Seftin said:
    Short version server side curing would kill my sense of imersion. Just have people pointed towards the forums for systems. Dont kill the magic by having achaea start slowly curing your afflictions wi th out any input on your part.
    This seems a little strange to me. Why would it being server-side (and possibly with nice RP flavour) make it more immersion breaking than being pointed to client-side scripts? How can you "keep the magic" through working on scripts in a mud client?
     


    Exactly.  I'm not sure how writing software OOC is less immersion-breaking in a medieval world than being told that your character is smart enough to do perform an instructed action when it thinks it next regains the appropriate balance.*

    Like Drauka, my interest in adding a small amount of server-side automation is mainly in eliminating ping wars from being a factor in how the combat mechanics are balanced and systems are written.

     

    *note the "thinks"- I'm not suggesting killing the idea of illusions but the way they work could use a fresh look

    Sylvance
  • XithXith Member Posts: 2,602 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    We should turn the opinions posed in this thread into a poll.

    I like my steak like I like my Magic cards: mythic rare.
    ShirszaeAveriSylvance
  • GaleynGaleyn Member Posts: 3
    I'm very new to Achaea. As a Eleusian and a Sylvan, I want to fight and join the ranger in battle for the forest. I am using HTML5 and it has an easy way to set up basic trigger and such. 

    However, I also know Mudlet users do not have to DIAG to know what their afflictions are. This is frustrating, because I could only use basic reflexes, I can't cure more than two aflliction unless I DIAG. There's a situation where my curing is faster than my equilibrium, so I have to DIAG after each Equilibrium. In this situation, I can't fight back if I have damaged arms, I need to DIAG at least three times to get them mended, I'm already dead before that can happen.

    I would be tempted to move on to Mudlet, however, I don't know much about coding to set up basic interface. It's makes moving to another client difficult.

    Another point, I don't know why houses need to teach their young about afflictions and herbs if one could just download a curing system without understanding them.
  • GaleynGaleyn Member Posts: 3
    Indeed, it's the SVO and Omnipave that I'm mentioning. Omnipave is free, so every mudlet users should have them.

    Let me explain it better. I have to DIAG because a trampling horse can give you broken legs and arms in one attack. Hence the need to DIAG to get the reflexes going. There are also companion pet, like a falcon that can knock off your balance, couple that with the need to DIAG?

    I did add reflexes involving each affliction and separate into four type. The initial line that give you the affliction, the situation line that mentioned on-going affliction, the affliction that is mentioned when you act (when you can't move or webbed), and the Diag entries itself. It more than frustrating when people asked why I didn't cure the affliction, because some people had the notion that everybody has a curing system, but I building my own by myself.

    There is no way to fix two afflictions that share the same equilibrium at once, like applying balm and salve for example, hence the need for DIAG. However, people who have Omnipave and SVO don't have to, they even said it to me in person. I wasn't angry but more towards the feeling of hopeless and knowing that there's little I can do about it unless I move to mudlet.

    I think this could be one of the barriers of entries to newbie combat this thread is talking about, I'm only voicing my experience with it.
  • IocunIocun Member Posts: 3,695 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Well, it's not impossible to do without moving to Mudlet. It is possible to make a relatively decent system even in the default website clients, which will be able to register several afflictions at once and cure the second one when you regain the respective balance, to save you from all that diagnosing. Clients like Mudlet/Mush/Cmud may be a tad more powerful and offer more coding possibilities of course.

    In any case, I certainly understand your frustration. It's quite unfortunate that by using Achaea's "default clients" you so quickly arrive at a point where you just aren't able to keep up with people who got some other client and bought a system for it.
  • FrohFroh Member Posts: 53 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Galeyn said:
    There is no way to fix two afflictions that share the same equilibrium at once, like applying balm and salve for example, hence the need for DIAG. However, people who have Omnipave and SVO don't have to, they even said it to me in person. I wasn't angry but more towards the feeling of hopeless and knowing that there's little I can do about it unless I move to mudlet.

    It sounds like you're grouping two things that don't have to go together: knowing what afflictions you have and deciding when/how to cure them.

    One diagnose (or the lines that make you think you just got or have an affliction, if you trust them to not be illusions) gives you a list of things you need to cure.

    From there, you work down the list (deciding that you need to eat a goldenseal and a kelp, drink immunity, apply two mendings and a restoration then mending) and don't need to do additional diag's until you're done with that list.  While working through the list (probably separate lists for each balance) you're just watching for regaining herb/salve balances, not running DIAG each time you think you want to cure something.

    That is a little bit of simplification because you're constantly adding and curing afflictions.

    A common set of search keywords would be healing queue to find some examples in various clients.

    Yue
  • ThalosThalos Member Posts: 1
    I just started playing about a week ago and I'd say the biggest barrier so far is the impressions that you must know how to code and have a variety of complex automated systems if you ever want to be competitive in PvP. I've been able to create basic curing triggers and alias' with the IRE HTML client but I doubt that it will be adequate when I face someone with SVO, Limb Counters, etc. etc. I like the look and features of the IRE client and switching over to Mudlet feels like downgrading to telnet unless you have the knowledge to recreate the UI. 
    MishgulChryenthSherazadAehren
  • MazothMazoth Member Posts: 47 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    I was fortunate enough to be gifted a system by someone else, which has greatly helped my intro into combat, but like many have already said...

    spamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspamspam

    except scrolling down a page not side by side, I literally feel like a helpless dummy when I try to fight.  Granted I'm sure that'll be overcome with time, but man it's like trying to drink from a fire hydrant
    Simoln
  • AedinAedin Member Posts: 306 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Well, then never seen this thread until now else I would have put my opinion in!

    Well starting off, I'm a Paladin within the walls of Targossas. While new and quite confused on a lot of things when I first started, I enlisted as a solider. I mean who doesn't wanna be a solider?? So I quickly and quite rudely got into combat by many many many, frequent ganks from Mhaldor, and I didn't know why until shortly after I found we was at war with them, and well I was basically the hit list of everyone in Mhaldor due to my level. So I had to learn combat very quickly, thanks to a lot of people @Tesha, @Antonius, @Achilles, @Davio, @Santar, @Sothantos... pretty much all of Targossas helped me learn it. 

    While I say a lot of the issues arise with actually putting it into terms and getting used to it. Highlights, and CECHO's helped out greatly with, the quickly moving text. Another issue I had was getting to be able to survive and there is kinda a feeling you -need- to get credits to even be on par with everyone, seeing how rough guess 85% or even more (Including myself now) have ATLEAST their class skills trans'd, or double plus survival. While there is a greatly feeling on imbalanced classes as well compared to a lot of others. Mainly including Occultists, Blademasters and Monks, in terms of combat each one prospectively in their own way. Then after that it comes down to artifacts as well, which a lot of combatants have.  


    However like @Thalos, mentioned about the IRE HTML client , about it being adequate to someone on SVO. I, myself started off on the IRE HTML client, and thought it was great with all the UI, IH, and so on. However it was not able to compete with someone on Mudlet, and qucikly made the switch over as I mentioned before, not knowing I enlisted as a solider and was dying a lot to people..

    Achaea combat from a newbie perspective starting out is very, very one sided in favor greatly to those who are way more experienced, it is a huge wall to attempt to even try to overcome. I don't know the solution or could begin to start to even figure out where to but, newbie combatants. The constant need to get artefacts and credits, through real life or even in game means, is very taxing on someone. With the rate of getting gold, and credit prices on the market, at low levels it feels like the only solution is the well, buy credits through real life means. I can hunt Manara and through all the gold drop barely make enough to cover a single health vial refill, of 300 gold.. Not many much of  a profit or perhaps their are better ways of securing gold, but these methods are to knowledge not very known or don't exist.


    This is my two cents, but I love every minute of the game and enjoy playing it and learning a lot of stuff!


    SantarExelethrilEld
  • SantarSantar Member, Secret Squirrel Posts: 2,482 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Pretty sure it was Kard's fault.
    TeshaCarmellHalos
  • TeshaTesha Member Posts: 3,005 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    @Silas why is Santar not Targ yet? He clearly knows our ways.

    I like how that one person described combat spam, like trying to take a drink from a fire hydrant. Spam and complexity are probably the two biggest things; especially Bard complexity. 

     i'm a rebel

    CarmellSynbios
  • CahinCahin Member Posts: 1,213 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Yeah, would be mighty hypocritical. Instead just ally him.
    SherazadSylvanceSeftinAveri
  • SaevaSaeva Member Posts: 1,947 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Holy crap, are you people telling me that the only way to do combat in this game is to have a script and triggers?
    That's not only not fun, but ... that sounds terrible to code.
    I came from a game with one of the most complex and in depth combat systems that might ever exist in a mud, and you could script combat to just gain skill points to gain lessons... but... if you use a script in pvp scenarios you are definitely just going to die.
    This is not news I actually like reading.
  • SaevaSaeva Member Posts: 1,947 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Oh also, as a newbie, the spam had me a little bit stunned.
    I can read fast.. but not that fast.
  • MannimarMannimar Member Posts: 990 @ - Epic Achaean
    Saeva said:
    Oh also, as a newbie, the spam had me a little bit stunned.
    I can read fast.. but not that fast.
    The combat is fast paced, and that likely won't change any time soon, but you can help process it with highlights and sound cues. There are also a number of free systems to help you manage the curing aspect of combat. While html5 doesn't have a full system yet, it does have some basic curing options already available to you.
  • JovoloJovolo Member Posts: 3,339 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Saeva said:
    Holy crap, are you people telling me that the only way to do combat in this game is to have a script and triggers?
    That's not only not fun, but ... that sounds terrible to code.
    I came from a game with one of the most complex and in depth combat systems that might ever exist in a mud, and you could script combat to just gain skill points to gain lessons... but... if you use a script in pvp scenarios you are definitely just going to die.
    This is not news I actually like reading.
    And what MUD was that?
  • SaevaSaeva Member Posts: 1,947 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    It was the Eternal City.

    There are dozens of combat styles and subskills for every combat style and if you don't know the ins and outs of what every specific move did - how your rank bonus (for your trained ranks) worked out for every stance (several stances including berserk to defensive) against someone elses' stance and their weapon ...
    and you couldn't follow (read with your own eyes at a swift pace) what moves they were using against you,
    you were going to be annihilated.
    I wasn't the best PvP player in the game by far, but I was one of the higher tier combatants over the years and it's something only the player controls. If you aren't reading, using your mind and following whatever tactics someone else is using against you.. and you don't plan a response immediately, you'll end up unconscious or in a coma... worst case scenario, dead.

    I just can't imagine a game where you find the joy in writing a script to respond to combat ...instead of actually engaging in the combat itself.
    It's not a matter of "Oh darn this is so hard, I can't do it" for me as anewbie to this game.
    It's me looking at it and going... well, once I figured out how to write said script... how zombied out am I going to be in the midst of battle?

    Maybe I'm getting it all wrong, how combat works here. But it just sounds mindless once your script and triggers are built and in place.
  • WynedereWynedere Member Posts: 305 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Trust me, there is no way you could ever zombie out during combat with a system. There is way too much going on. 
    Kyriella
  • SaevaSaeva Member Posts: 1,947 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    So much going on, but triggers and scripts are doing the bulk of the work for you.

    I don't want this game to be the game I played, obviously. It's why I'm trying to learn this game specifically!
    I just see some vast downfalls.

    The other game too years to master. Nobody could walk in and just power own anyone after grinding.
    Because no matter how many stats/ranks you gathered for your character, if you didn't know what was going on, you'd still be outsmarted. I guess it was a downfall and positive of it all.
    The downfall being, it took so long to build an extremely solid pvp character.
    The upside being, it was enchanting and it hooked so many players even when a lot of other parts of the game have fallen to crap. The non-com aspect of the game, outside of role play alone, were terrible and neglected.

    But that kind of engagement in combat was extremely stimulating and fascinating. Always will be.

    I guess I'm just trying to understand how this combat system works and how, if it is run by a system, it's interesting or enthralling. I'm not bashing it. I'm just trying to grasp it from a real newbie's standpoint.
  • ArditiArditi Member Posts: 841 @ - Epic Achaean
    Basically, the system is there so that you can focus on your offense and not have to worry about the defensive side of it as much.

    It's nearly impossible to automate an offense, but you script it so that you can do complicated things fast enough to be effective. For instance, as a Serpent, you might be envenoming a dirk with two venoms, doublestabbing, and conjuring an illusion every two seconds. Doing that as singular commands would require superhuman typing skills, so you script, alias, and macro to handle that better. It's not going to make it an "I win" button, since you still need to know what skills to use and how to use them to kill someone.
  • SaevaSaeva Member Posts: 1,947 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Also, one of the reasons I'm digging into these types of threads this early is...
    I didn't even realize people were using any systems and I didn't know there was anything like html5 being offered or how to get it. These are kinds of things that as a newbie, trying to take in everything at once, you just don't know about. It's not something I've read about anywhere or know how to obtain.
    I think the majority of people playing muds are people who have played muds in the past, at this point. It's not the complexity of the system that is too much.. it's not even knowing there is a system.
    So even if it's the kind of combat that will forever be - one of the tricks to getting new players involved, would be, to make that sort of information known from the get go so people could start trying to figure it out instead of watching combat and going *buggy eyes* what the .... how...

    If you have a friend who plays who helps you get involved in the game, that is the kind of information they can pass on and help you build. But when you come in knowing nobody it's daunting.
    I hope I don't sound negative. I'm not meaning to be negative.
    Just trying to give some feedback to what I think this thread was questioning.
  • JovoloJovolo Member Posts: 3,339 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    You need to actually participate in the combat before you make a comment like that. @Saeva - Achaea is easily one of the most complex combat systems out there.

    I would hazard a guess that there are far more abilities available in Achaea than there are in Eternal City, let alone the many tactics that you can use as a result of combining these many abilities. That's before you even delve into group combat. Sure, we've advanced beyond a time where manualing is feasible, but in its place we have been given an extremely high paced game where the slightest lack of concentration means your death. That's hardly automating your way to a victory. 

    I still don't agree with several of the other fighters in that you can effectively PvP against anyone in the game without dragon level health, no artefacts and only transcendent class skills unless you are perhaps a runewarden with amazing rapiers - which hardly places you in the no artefacts group, practically speaking. However, there is an incredible amount you can learn, and the complexity of it is what draws in and retains the PvP playerbase. Unfortunately, in the past couple of years PvP has taken an absolute and complete dip in both attitude and ability, but eh, it is still fun to compete in at least in group combat.

    Really though, try it out. I'm 100% sure you'll take back pretty much everything you just said. You can ask me any questions you want via PM regarding the combat system here, and your concerns.
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