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If you were a newbie combatant....

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  • TaelTael Member Posts: 1,197 @ - Epic Achaean
    edited March 2013
    Iocun said:
    One of the main problems with player-designed server-side curing systems is that depending on how much coding freedom they offer, they might end up very ineffective and slow down Achaea. There's already a ton of inefficient code out there, but currently that only harms the person using the system itself, which would be a lot different if it was server-side. The system probably also couldn't offer all too much coding freedom due to security concerns, so it probably wouldn't end up being server side code so much as just different configurations on a fixed curing core.

    That itself is fine, but never allows the kind of optimisation that client-side systems allow. There's a lot of variables that factor into what particular cure I use at what particular moment, which couldn't be handled by a simple priority list, even if you could change it on the fly (mostly because whatever command you'd use to change the priority would often arrive on the server too late). So I really doubt it would manage to be a full replacement for current client-side systems. But I certainly wouldn't mind it existing as an alternative.

    (Chances are however that the new optimal way of curing would be some kind of weird tangled-up mix between serverside and clientside curing, to both give you optimal speed and flexibility, which might actually complicate stuff further, as it'd require people to get the acquired in-game components AND still get a script to work with them for their client.)
    Player-designed, complex server-side curing is probably infeasible. The architecture it would require is crazy and I'm not even sure it's possible to create a system powerful enough to do decent curing while still being foolproof enough to avoid the problem you mention.

    The intent behind what I've been trying to propose is precisely that optimal curing should be a "tangled-up mix between serverside and clientside curing". It's not a problem for optimal curing to be hard or require scripting (though I don't know that I would call managing a serverside priority list particularly more confusing or complicated beyond managing a clientside one). Optimal curing should be hard and people who like scripting to make their curing better should be able to do that.

    The problem we face is that right now you can't even do suboptimal curing without a fairly complex client and a big bunch of scripts. Even if they're provided bundled, that's still additional complexity for a newbie, that's still going to require talking to newbies about particular clients and bundles, it's still going to be the sort of stuff that usually gets thrown away in favour of a full, prepackaged system, and it still provides no incentive to actually figure out how or why any of the scripts work.

    The goal was to give people a means of curing with very little setup and nothing that can confuse a newbie clientside because basic curing literally wouldn't require anything clientside. Further, I think it's ideal that it be something that you build off of clientside to make an optimal system, not just something you throw away when you're ready to buy a wholly different system. I really, really wouldn't want to see server-side curing that was a sort of stopgap measure where you can use it for a while, then you chuck it and move to an entirely client-side system. Static priority curing isn't optimal, but it's enough for a newbie and it's also something that a newbie could fairly readily learn to understand before they start building things on top of it clientside or even acquiring things built on top of it (since it quite purposefully leaves open the possibility of commercial systems that manipulate the serverside curing).

    The ping issue is just icing on the cake.
    Tvistor
  • CooperCooper Member Posts: 5,850 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    @Tael - Aetolia already has complex, server-side curing available for everyone with some ability low in survival. It is purposely slow, though, so people do not rely on it.

  • TaelTael Member Posts: 1,197 @ - Epic Achaean
    I'm aware - that's exactly the kind of thing I'm trying to suggest is a bad solution.
  • NimNim Member Posts: 2,015 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited March 2013

    As a random thought, unrelated to automatic curing and what-not, what if Achaean combat was made more colorful, or something like that?

    Right now, it feels like most people make it more colorful client-side anyway to make it easier to read through the textspam that is Achaean combat. Certainly, it should be something configurable (preferably as - if not more - complex as CONFIG COLOUR, but at minimum, a way to turn it off), but why not make it part of the game itself? Even in a text game, visual appeal is important, and combat is far too spammy for the game to draw its aesthetics from just writing quality.

    The issue, as always, is that it messes with illusions. That's going to be a problem with a lot of ideas, I think, so maybe illusions ought to be revisited at some point?

    Alcinae
  • XithXith Member Posts: 2,602 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Cooper said:
    @ Tael - Aetolia already has complex, server-side curing available for everyone with some ability low in survival. It is purposely slow, though, so people do not rely on it.
    See, I can approve of a delay on the server-side curing, just to keep newbies off the slugbeast's menu. But just not to replace player-made curing.
    A health/mana sipper isn't out of the question either. Easy stuff every newbie needs.
    I like my steak like I like my Magic cards: mythic rare.
  • TaelTael Member Posts: 1,197 @ - Epic Achaean
    edited March 2013
    Xith said:
    Cooper said:
    @ Tael - Aetolia already has complex, server-side curing available for everyone with some ability low in survival. It is purposely slow, though, so people do not rely on it.
    See, I can approve of a delay on the server-side curing, just to keep newbies off the slugbeast's menu. But just not to replace player-made curing.
    A health/mana sipper isn't out of the question either. Easy stuff every newbie needs.

    -------------------------------
    The idea is to give people something relatively simple (NOT a complex system like in Aetolia), which means you don't need to artificially hobble it and that it should be extensible with client-side scripting. Newbies should get only the most barebones server-side curing, but it should be a barebones system that can be fleshed out, not a stopgap system that just gets discarded.

    The reason I don't like that idea is that it still leaves this gaping chasm between someone without a system and someone with a system. It lets a newbie bash, but not much more - they can't even begin to do even mid-tier combat with a restricted, tick-based server-side curing system (maybe that would work in Aetolia where combat hasn't progressed to quite the state it has in Achaea, but someone with five minutes of teaching on how to fight and some very basic combat abilities could handily defeat such a system in Achaea).

    More crucially, it doesn't provide any impetus or help whatsoever in learning how combat works and anyone interested in combat is just going to discard it and buy a system. The only thing it would do is make bashing a little bit easier, which is fine I guess, but doesn't really help with addressing the problems described in this thread.

    And the extent to which built-in priority lists would replace player-made curing is pretty minimal. Every system is going to have priority lists and creating them isn't in any real way interesting, challenging, or fun - it's the horrible part of system-building that anyone who has ever built or tried to build a system absolutely dreads - collecting all of the affliction messages. I've never heard of a person who enjoyed that part (collecting the messages themselves - not figuring out what more intricate abilities do and how to cure more complex constellations of afflictions more efficiently), which is one of the reasons there have been lists of affliction lines going around OOCly for years. If I had a list of affliction messages, I could code a simple priority system in probably ten minutes (and I'm not even a good coder). So it's only "replacing" the absolute simplest and most uninteresting part of player-made systems. The only possible downside (in terms of newbies learning combat) is that collecting them by hand (which again, no one does) could potentially force you to encounter and perhaps learn a little bit about the abilities that cause the messages. But if you had a flag-based system for the curing discussed at length above, the server-side system actually enforces that better because there's no way to use a list and you actually have to see the afflictions, what they do to you, and how to cure them before the system works.

    Crucially, if we think that newbies should be able to start getting into combat, I would submit that that is the bare minimum that "every newbie needs". It isn't needed if you don't think newbies should be able to participate in combat, but that attitude seems to run counter to the purpose of this thread.

    Any purposefully defective server-side system that you can't build off of to create a more-optimal system, that eventually just gets discarded in favour of a full client-side system, just puts the combat wall slightly further ahead for newbies. They're still going to run into it pretty much just as hard - it does nothing to help them to climb over it.

    Edit: I guess that's enough walls of text and I think my thoughts are pretty clear. I'll leave this thread in peace - so if anyone for whatever reason wants to discuss anything, PM?
    Post edited by Tael on
  • MishgulMishgul Trondheim, NorwayMember Posts: 5,378 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Drauka said:
    To be honest, the complexity of Achaea is what made me stay. I was playing Aardwolf before Achaea, and it was so simple. I never looked back.

    I'd be weary of making things too simple.

    Best post in thread

    -

    One of the symptoms of an approaching nervous breakdown is the belief that one's work is terribly important

    As drawn by Shayde
    hic locus est ubi mors gaudet succurrere vitae
    RajanXith
  • XithXith Member Posts: 2,602 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Mishgul said:
    Drauka said:
    To be honest, the complexity of Achaea is what made me stay. I was playing Aardwolf before Achaea, and it was so simple. I never looked back.

    I'd be weary of making things too simple.

    Best post in thread
    Exactly. I'm trying to say that I value a challenge and having lots of bits and pieces to remember, but because I'm a fast learner, the frustration for me was not knowing everything at once, and not having a source for the information. You had to learn through other people, which is another cool thing about Achaea.

    I'm tempted to say "no change needed". Just welcome the newbies with "hey, you're gonna want to buy Svo for 25cr. welcome to your first Achaean investment." Or have a help file that explains why they're getting their butts kicked so fast: SYSTEMS.
    I like my steak like I like my Magic cards: mythic rare.
  • NakariNakari Member Posts: 596 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    giving newbie's basic functionality in no way makes them have to learn less. And really, I'm not sure what the functional difference, complexity-wise, would be between them starting with a bare-bones system or telling them that they need to go buy one.
    Tael
  • VadimusesVadimuses Member Posts: 1,136 @ - Epic Achaean
    I think if the admins were serious about retaining newbies in the game and combat, they'd actually poll players who've registered for the game and stopped playing to find out their opinions. We aren't newbies who've quit the game.
    DraukaDelphinus[Deleted User]Averi
  • KyrraKyrra AustraliaMember Posts: 4,941 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    When I returned from dormancy late last year, I was talked into mudlet being a lot more efficient a client than zmud. Then I was told that I ought to get a healing system. There wasn't much difference in price between omni3 and svo at the time, but omni wasn't always free to use. I don't care so much from a combat point of view, but using a system makes survivability so much better for exploring and hunting. It allows for focus on other aspects of the game if you have no interest in building your own stuff.
    (D.M.A.): Cooper says, "Kyrra is either the most innocent person in the world, or the girl who uses the most innuendo seemingly unintentionally but really on purpose."

  • AnaidianaAnaidiana Member Posts: 834 @ - Epic Achaean
    ^ in response/modification to @Drauka's idea, PLEASE only send one of those per IP/registered email, otherwise I foresee great amounts of angst due to spam. For some reason, I get 3 texts every time T-mobile wants to let me know about something, all within about a 4-hour time span. It wouldn't be an issue for me (I don't' have time enough to do everything Ana needs to do, let alone an alt), but I know some people who have spawned scores of characters over the years and an email for EVERY SINGLE CHARACTER would make them want to stab things. Like merry bands of geeks and somesuch. 


    image
    XithSylvance
  • TaelTael Member Posts: 1,197 @ - Epic Achaean
    edited March 2013
    Xith said:
    Mishgul said:
    Drauka said:
    To be honest, the complexity of Achaea is what made me stay. I was playing Aardwolf before Achaea, and it was so simple. I never looked back.

    I'd be weary of making things too simple.

    Best post in thread
    Exactly. I'm trying to say that I value a challenge and having lots of bits and pieces to remember, but because I'm a fast learner, the frustration for me was not knowing everything at once, and not having a source for the information. You had to learn through other people, which is another cool thing about Achaea.

    I'm tempted to say "no change needed". Just welcome the newbies with "hey, you're gonna want to buy Svo for 25cr. welcome to your first Achaean investment." Or have a help file that explains why they're getting their butts kicked so fast: SYSTEMS.



    Edit: why do my quotes never work? :(   -------------------------



    How does "you're going to want to go buy this thing" equate to a challenge? Buying svo doesn't help preserve the complexity of combat or help people to learn it - if anything, having people buy such a sophisticated system early on eliminates the need to learn a lot of the complexity.

    Replacing systems with a simpler built-in system provides an environment much more conducive to actually learning the complexity of combat. Right now, what people typically do is fail miserably, then get a system where they have no idea what it's doing, but their combat ability jumps exponentially. Then, if they get more serious, they go back and figure out what their system was already doing for them (without their having any clue why). That's a weird setup to incentivise actually learning combat. What you want a sort of middle ground, preferably the kind that can be built into a more optimal system to encourage building it as you learn and discourage immediately discarding it and going for a more optimal commercial system from the very beginning.

    I'm all for maintaining the complexity of combat and keeping the current means of teaching people about it, which is precisely why I think the present situation with near-universal client-side systems is disappointing.
  • XithXith Member Posts: 2,602 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Tael said:


    How does "you're going to want to go buy this thing" equate to a challenge? 

    The same way buying an assault weapon doesn't make you an expert sniper.
    I like my steak like I like my Magic cards: mythic rare.
    Drauka
  • TaelTael Member Posts: 1,197 @ - Epic Achaean
    edited March 2013
    Xith said:
    Tael said:


    How does "you're going to want to go buy this thing" equate to a challenge? 

    The same way buying an assault weapon doesn't make you an expert sniper.
    An average person with no training and an assault rifle is a hell of a lot more deadly than a person throwing rocks.

    Having the default progression be no system->full system makes people suddenly far, far better without needing to learn absolutely anything about combat. For people who don't intend to become "expert snipers", there's no learning involved at all - you don't need to learn even basic information about curing (in fact, it would be relatively pointless to learn, since you need to know about fairly complex, advanced issues before you know enough to actually improve on a system's default curing).

    The problem is that right now we have people who are throwing rocks, people who were just handed assault weapons, and expert snipers. What we don't have is anything like people who have undergone basic training or have been given hunting rifles.
    Shirszae
  • XithXith Member Posts: 2,602 @@ - Legendary Achaean

    Tael said:
    Xith said:
    Tael said:


    How does "you're going to want to go buy this thing" equate to a challenge? 

    The same way buying an assault weapon doesn't make you an expert sniper.
    An average person with no training and an assault rifle is a hell of a lot more deadly than a person throwing rocks.

    Having the default progression be no system->full system makes people suddenly far, far better without needing to learn absolutely anything about combat. For people who don't intend to become "expert snipers", there's no learning involved at all - you don't need to learn even basic information about curing (in fact, it would be relatively pointless to learn, since you need to know about fairly complex, advanced issues before you know enough to actually improve on a system's default curing).

    The problem is that right now we have people who are throwing rocks, people who were just handed assault weapons, and expert snipers. What we don't have is anything like people who have undergone basic training or have been given hunting rifles.
    So... the solution is server-side assault weapons? :/
    Or can we just agree that non-snipers with assault weapons are as dangerous to themselves as to others, and that no matter how good a sniper you are, throwing rocks is inadvisable?
    I like my steak like I like my Magic cards: mythic rare.
  • SeftinSeftin Member Posts: 923 @ - Epic Achaean
    Didn't mention about any ammo in those rifles.....
  • IocunIocun Member Posts: 3,695 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Ew, all this clinging overly long to a metaphor is making me sick. Let's talk about Achaea again...
    SylvanceDelphinusShirszae
  • SeftinSeftin Member Posts: 923 @ - Epic Achaean
    I'm against server side curing in any form. Especially passive server side curing.
  • GaraoGarao Member Posts: 460 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    The complexity and figuring that out is the best part and why I miss old achaea :(
    Rajan
  • IocunIocun Member Posts: 3,695 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Seftin said:
    I'm against server side curing in any form. Especially passive server side curing.
    Why?
  • SylvanceSylvance Member Posts: 1,477 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean

    Garao said:
    The complexity and figuring that out is the best part and why I miss old achaea :(
    When did 'old Achaea' become 'new Achaea'?  I ask this question seriously, because I'm slowly coming to realise that it isn't Achaea that's changed over 13 years so much as it is me.
    Tvistor: If that was a troll, it was masterful.
    I take my hat off to you.
  • GaraoGarao Member Posts: 460 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Sylvance said:

    Garao said:
    The complexity and figuring that out is the best part and why I miss old achaea :(
    When did 'old Achaea' become 'new Achaea'?  I ask this question seriously, because I'm slowly coming to realise that it isn't Achaea that's changed over 13 years so much as it is me.
    It's Achaea.
  • SylvanceSylvance Member Posts: 1,477 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Garao said:
    Sylvance said:

    Garao said:
    The complexity and figuring that out is the best part and why I miss old achaea :(
    When did 'old Achaea' become 'new Achaea'?  I ask this question seriously, because I'm slowly coming to realise that it isn't Achaea that's changed over 13 years so much as it is me.
    It's Achaea.
    Huh?
    Tvistor: If that was a troll, it was masterful.
    I take my hat off to you.
  • DraukaDrauka Member Posts: 243 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited March 2013
    Good systems are here, if we like it or not, and are easily available to anyone. 

    Think it's best to just accept it and move on. I do remember needing to learn how to cure everything, diagnosis helped a ton then too as I didn't have all the trigger lines, and freaking out "crap, what is happening, what affliction is this?! HELP CURELIST!" I did die a few times due to not being able to heal when I first started. I would have preferred to have a system back then and know all the triggers to catch things.

    I honestly think much of the focus should be shifted to the Houses. They have the ability to regulate requirements and behavior to progress, or even maintain membership. Just because you can cure something via a system, doesn't mean you know why or how it is doing it. Just a verbal quiz even, "Suppose you had broken limbs or were set on fire, how would you solve that and heal yourself?", etc. Questions and Answers are independent of any system I'm aware of. If you take too long to figure it out, you failed (failed because you have to assume they are looking up the answer instead of knowing it). It should be a focus of knowledge and not ability to perform.

    I am just a very very big newbie when it comes to PK (don't even have my offensive system built to a point where I can do anything much), and I know that being able to cure automatically via Svo doesn't really mean anything (I might be able to stay standing for a few seconds but I'm going to die shortly after). I do get that Svo and systems like it do help greatly against affliction classes more than they used to, but that's just the way it is now.

    Having a system that works very well is no excuse for House and City members to not know curing knowledge and for House and City leaders to not test their members on it. Even just a simple question like, "What does goldenseal cure?" or "You're currently blind, what are two ways to enable you to see again?" When I first started this game, this was a requirement that I thought all houses required you to know. Fundamentals are still fundamentals.

    Change happens, things evolve. Need to roll with it. 
    HhaosValdenSylvance
  • HhaosHhaos Cortland, OhioMember Posts: 301 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Drauka said:
    Good systems are here, if we like it or not, and are easily available to anyone. 

    Think it's best to just accept it and move on. I do remember needing to learn how to cure everything, diagnosis helped a ton then too as I didn't have all the trigger lines, and freaking out "crap, what is happening, what affliction is this?! HELP CURELIST!" I did die a few times due to not being able to heal when I first started. I would have preferred to have a system back then and know all the triggers to catch things.

    I honestly think much of the focus should be shifted to the Houses. They have the ability to regulate requirements and behavior to progress, or even maintain membership. Just because you can cure something via a system, doesn't mean you know why or how it is doing it. Just a verbal quiz even, "Suppose you had broken limbs or were set on fire, how would you solve that and heal yourself?", etc. Questions and Answers are independent of any system I'm aware of. If you take too long to figure it out, you failed (failed because you have to assume they are looking up the answer instead of knowing it). It should be a focus of knowledge and not ability to perform.

    I am just a very very big newbie when it comes to PK (don't even have my offensive system built to a point where I can do anything much), and I know that being able to cure automatically via Svo doesn't really mean anything (I might be able to stay standing for a few seconds but I'm going to die shortly after). I do get that Svo and systems like it do help greatly against affliction classes more than they used to, but that's just the way it is now.

    Having a system that works very well is no excuse for House and City members to not know curing knowledge and for House and City leaders to not test their members on it. Even just a simple question like, "What does goldenseal cure?" or "You're currently blind, what are two ways to enable you to see again?" When I first started this game, this was a requirement that I thought all houses required you to know. Fundamentals are still fundamentals.

    Change happens, things evolve. Need to roll with it. 

    When I was in the Merchants, right before leaving, I was head of the new Blade Path and can remember having to explicitly tell a newbie to pause their system while I riftlocked them and had them walk me through how to cure themselves out of it. While it wasn't an all intensive curing test it did require the person in question(I believe she's a Mhaldorian now hint hint) to go ahead and explain why that particular set of cures needed to be used and why to get out of such a scenario. I have also, thanks to this, ran into the IC/OOC wall that is sometimes hard to breach and still keep immersion prevalent in what you do. This is also the same reasoning behind my failing someone in a test for the KoH in their curing departmet because while they were able to cure effectively, they were not able to tell me why it worked.
    Valden
  • RajanRajan Member Posts: 193 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Perhaps the problem isn't Achaea's complexity or it's lack of transparency. Perhaps the problem is new players' lack of interest in such a complex game. If they want less-complex games, Aardwolf is out there for them. Achaea's complexity is its draw, and server-side curing isn't going to fix that for new players. If such a system is implemented, it should end at level 21, or 30 at the latest. That gives newbies plenty of time to learn what is going on and how to adapt to the opening complexities facing them in real-world Achaea.
    XithYue
  • DraukaDrauka Member Posts: 243 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Only reason i support server-side queues is to get around network latency issues.
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