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If you were a newbie combatant....

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  • JonathinJonathin Retired in a hole.Member Posts: 3,424 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited March 2013
    I am a newbie combatant and I find it difficult to kill people. Can you make my strength 1000 so I can just bop people to death?

    Edit: to be constructive- a slow-mo arena option would be nice. It would be useful to more than just newbies as well. It would help me get used to looking through the spam for important things again and allow me to better examine things that I did poorly or the techniques of my opponent as they're happening.
    I am retired and log into the forums maybe once every 2 months. It was a good 20 years, live your best lives, friends.
    Prythe
  • NimNim Member Posts: 2,015 @@ - Legendary Achaean

    @Sena: Ah. I worded that confusingly. I meant, I think that even if there were glaring holes in the wiki's more detailed information, that wouldn't necessarily be a failure, since that information can always be gathered/improved later. I also meant that, even if you're correct, and the wiki never gets past basic information, I think it might still be good to have, but it looks like we agree on that part!

    Also, dedicated wiki maintenance can be a lot of work. Maybe the admins could add it as a volunteer role, or otherwise support players who work on the wiki actively, but I wouldn't underestimate the difficulty in finding even two or three dedicated editors who're specifically willing to write about combat stuff.

  • XithXith Member Posts: 2,602 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Jonathin said:
    I am a newbie combatant and I find it difficult to kill people. Can you make my strength 1000 so I can just bop people to death?

    Edit: to be constructive- a slow-mo arena option would be nice. It would be useful to more than just newbies as well. It would help me get used to looking through the spam for important things again and allow me to better examine things that I did poorly or the techniques of my opponent as they're happening.
    Arena retardation. I like.
    I like my steak like I like my Magic cards: mythic rare.
  • SenaSena Member Posts: 3,957 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I like the idea of an arena setting or location where everything combat-related is slowed down. That's a lot to cover though; dozens, maybe even hundreds of things that would need to be changed. Balance, equilibrium, sip balance, herb balance, salve balance, vibes/harmonics/rites ticks, regen ticks, drain ticks, passive curing, ability durations/delays/cooldowns, movement speed, dozens of other ticks and timers, and probably lots of things I'm forgetting.
    Prythe
  • NakariNakari Member Posts: 596 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    I'm too much of a combat noob to say anything on-topic that hasn't been said already, but I will say that this thread makes me happy. It's one of the most constructive threads I've seen in a long time, and it's cool to see the attitude, from both players and admin, that will hopefully lead to issues such as the ones discussed in here to get addressed.
  • JacenJacen Member Posts: 2,325 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Sena said:
    I like the idea of an arena setting or location where everything combat-related is slowed down. That's a lot to cover though; dozens, maybe even hundreds of things that would need to be changed. Balance, equilibrium, sip balance, herb balance, salve balance, vibes/harmonics/rites ticks, regen ticks, drain ticks, passive curing, ability durations/delays/cooldowns, movement speed, dozens of other ticks and timers, and probably lots of things I'm forgetting.
    That's true, but there's the possibility that it could be as simple as scaling the return value of whatever timing function they use by a half. Never know.
    image
  • TasleusTasleus Member Posts: 82 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Sarapis said:
    I'd love to see people updating the wiki (wiki.achaea.com), particularly with combat info. I don't think there's a very active crowd of wiki editors though. Bal'met doesn't even have an entry yet, for instance.

    We'd be happy to lend support to someone(s) who wanted to take a stab at really making the wiki useful for combat info.

    (Also, a combat channel seems likely. I like the idea.)
    ...@Sarapis likes my idea.  \:D/
    image
  • XenomorphXenomorph Member Posts: 389 @ - Epic Achaean

    If I were a newbie combatant...lets see. Hmm.

     

     

    You know, it'd probably seem like nothing changed for me! I need systems and steroids, smothered in muscle milk. Someone help! Moses said to "stop being bitches and help thine friend in need, haters." so do something

    I -am- the Cataclysm Switchblade.
    Alcinae
  • SynbiosSynbios Member Posts: 4,636 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Yue said:
    something like this please : http://wiki.lusternia.com/Skills

    browse the rest of their wiki.. I think something similar for Achaea would be reasonable

    The fanmade version is superior - https://sites.google.com/site/xieltalnara/home
  • GaraoGarao Member Posts: 460 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Yep.
    Alcinae
  • YueYue Member Posts: 290 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    @Synbios - I don't play Lusternia so.. :/

    I just like the idea of a detailed wiki. 
  • TrevizeTrevize Member Posts: 1,517 @ - Epic Achaean
    Arador said:

    Thirdly, bundled systems. I would not suggest server side curing for a lot of reasons already mentioned here but why not take a system like Omnipave 2 (or something very basic) and bundle it with a download from your website. People can move on to other systems later but this will at least get them starting. And base it on Mudlet. Most fighters are on Mudlet. No point spending a year learning another client if they have to end up switching to Mudlet anyway.
    Part of the difficulty like that is that free (and often paid) systems are notorious for the the designer suddenly, for various reasons, just stopping. And Achaean combat is non-stop changes. They quickly become outdated, and soon after useless.
    Current scripts: GoldTracker 1.2, mData 1.1
    Site: https://github.com/trevize-achaea/scripts/releases
    Thread: http://forums.achaea.com/discussion/4064/trevizes-scripts
    Latest update: 9/26/2015 better character name handling in GoldTracker, separation of script and settings, addition of gold report and gold distribute aliases.
  • IocunIocun Member Posts: 3,695 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    A good basic system should provide you with all the core functionality to get by without being an expert in any scripting language, but give you the tools to expand it in all directions yourself. I don't expect every player to delve through online tutorials and client documentations long enough to write a great curing system from scratch, but I think the ability to create a trigger or alias and change an existing, well-documented, system to some degree is something we can expect people who are serious about getting "good combatants" to learn.

    There's no need for everyone to have a perfect, flawless system in order to participate in Achaean combat. What you need is a solid foundation and the readiness to put in some time to expand on that, so the "quickly outdated and soon after useless" thing is something I just can't agree with. As long as the core of the system itself is well-designed and fast, this isn't such a huge issue.
    Zeon
  • GaraoGarao Member Posts: 460 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    edited March 2013
    I wish it was easier for people to transcend their first few lessons, and for that difficulty to increase to eventually come into line with the same difficulty for omni-transing as it is today. As long as those first few abilities are more simple to transcend with less of a requirement of having to throw big money at the game or grind for months as Bluji mentioned, people can and most probably will become more invested in the game to spend that money to get artefacts or omni trans later on. With the difficulty to even get started in the first place, it drives away more people than it retains, imo. [Idea: You could even just make class skills easier to transcend, instead of requiring 1736 lessons to transcend, could just make them around 868 - 1000 lessons until transcendent.]

    Now, with the whole system thing, the reason I don't like Svo is not because it bests me (this doesn't even make any sense man), it's because you get a whole bunch of people who have no idea what the hell just happened surviving a well thought out strategy. This isn't an issue so much, as you can think of ways around this and eventually kill someone who doesn't know what they're doing, but not only does it mean they aren't learning shit, it makes it more frustrating for people who actually fight without having artefacts to lean on crazy damage and who have to use actual decent strategies. If we do beat the system, they can just send a log to Vadi who will try and find out how they could have not died there and then implement that into Svo. This sucks and is detrimental, and most definitely not a 'stepping stone' into combat, and it puts a greater distance between the people who bought a great curing system and also lots of artefacts and lessons for their skills but who have poor knowledge in achaean combat and the people who can just about afford to transcend two or three skills and no artefacts. This is reasonable enough, because of the difference in "power", and it encourages the "weaker" fighter to acquire lots and lots of knowledge on how to defeat a person who is on paper vastly more powerful. The frustrating thing in regards to the most popular system in achaea here, is that knowledge goes a very, very little way in these scenarios, sadly.

    Honestly, it's not even that difficult to get into combat unless you're -completely- new to achaea. Even then, it's just as and not overly more difficult than learning the other hundred aspects of the game. It's just one of those complex parts of achaea like pretty much everything is for a newcomer. With help from their cities and houses and even just sparring and getting involved, it's simple enough to get to an effective level to participate in group combat, and 1v1 rightfully being more difficult to master at a good level. There are just a lot of people that are against putting that effort in to learn, for some reason. It also doesn't help that a majority of the game's fighters have joined Ashtan, and there aren't that many spread around achaea any more - Next to none in Cyrene, None in Hashan, there aren't that many that are active in Mhaldor anymore and even less in Eleusis, and Targossas has only a few. Access to accurate in-game teaching has progressively become more and more difficult. 

    I support what Arador said, and have IRE release a basic but function and effective system for Mudlet, and then go from there. (Although this already exists, it's called omni). 


    Post edited by Garao on
    Vaehl[Deleted User]AveriAthorem
  • VadimusesVadimuses Member Posts: 1,136 @ - Epic Achaean
    edited March 2013
    I tried out HoN again after a long break (HoN - https://heroesofnewerth.com/, DotA-style game, not LoL). It really felt overwhelming, the controls are weird, and there is so much going at once in combat that I lose my character on the screen even.

    All that, while I'm great at handling Achaean group combat. Throw all the spam at me, I'll handle it. Yet I can't handle this game from inexperience.

    I really do think now that there are legitimate issues adapting to the style of the game, and it is not a simple lack of opponents. At least I can help this - make a simple package for people to gag common irrelevant stuff, highlight the relevant things, and so on. Something that's on my mind to do.
  • ValdenValden Member Posts: 544 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Vadimuses said:
    I tried out HoN again after a long break (HoN, not LoL). It really felt overwhelming, the controls are weird, and there is so much going at once in combat that I lose my character on the screen even.

    All that, while I'm great at handling Achaean group combat. Throw all the spam at me, I'll handle it. Yet I can't handle this game from inexperience.

    I really do think now that there are legitimate issues adapting to the style of the game, and it is not a simple lack of opponents. At least I can help this - make a simple package for people to gag common irrelevant stuff, highlight the relevant things, and so on. Something that's on my mind to do.
    Head of Novices?
    GaraoAveriChryenth
  • AerekAerek East Tennessee, USAMember Posts: 1,840 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Something I haven't seen mentioned is the simple fact that with the advent of the modern system, there is really isn't a "mid tier" of combat skill anymore. Either you're fighting a true newbie without a system, where anything will probably net you a kill, or you're fighting someone with a system, where your offense must be the perfect, planned, tried-and-true method in order to score a kill. These days, what's considered "mid tier", where someone is just starting to score kills, requires knowledge that used to be "top tier" as little as two or three years ago. It's like having to jump from backyard football to the NFL. We don't have high-school or NCAA levels of combat anymore, because everyone has major-league defense, even if they only have minor-league offense.

    As a Knight, there's a lot of moving parts to combat. High-tier combatants note Knight as "easy," and once you're an experienced combatant, that's true. As a newbie, though, that means understanding how to count limb hits, abuse herb and salve balances, and how to abuse priorities used by high-end systems. That's all completely separate from the mechanical requirements; Trans Chivalry and rapiers. That's a lot of complex knowledge to grasp before scoring your first kill. I work with newbies coming in and learning Knight combat all the time, and it's common for them to never score that kill for RL months as they try to learn those "basics". That's more effort and dedication than your average internet player is willing to put in, and very few of them actually make it that far.

    The larger problem is not that there isn't a base of "beginner" combatants, because there is, it's the fact that the "entry level" knowledge required to win has gotten so much more advanced. Either you can't kill anyone, because you don't know how to beat a system, or you can kill everyone, because you now understand how to beat a system.
    -- Grounded in but one perspective, what we perceive is an exaggeration of the truth.
  • GaraoGarao Member Posts: 460 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    edited March 2013
    I haven't seen anyone say systems are bad, and don't think anyone is really coming in with that mindset. I think it would be personally fun for systems to go, but I don't think it would be beneficial for the game. The only issue I have is to the extent Svo has taken it (*points at omni2's infernal curing, for example). Somewhat agree with you otherwise though.
  • PrythePrythe Member Posts: 554 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    When I started Hunting again (about 10/2011), after a long break where I mostly logged on to maintain my Grove, say "Howdy" to a few people, and lend out my Artefacts, the first thing that happened was, "Why am I not sipping my health automatically?" as I had an "auto sipper" from long back (given to me in such absolute secrecy, even now I don't want to thank the donor publicly), which, along with basic aliases and curing triggers I had written myself, was all I had for a system.

    This was right after Alchemy came in, and the "you may sip again" lines changed.

    Fortunately I didn't die, and was able to "dh," a remnant of my pre-autosip days, and run like the dickens to figure out what was happening.

    Many, many, many, people recommended Vadi - and I got vadi-m at that time, not yet willing to make the change to Mudlet (which I didn't do fully until after I reached Dragon - the patience for which I do not think I would have had without DOR or the ability to travel quickly to my next spot using the map - the latter apparently "always" available, but I never knew about it) and later Svo, which I now swear by for many reasons, but mostly for Vadi's diligence in helping, explaining, and fixing. Customer service at its finest.

    When I am currently Hunting, Defending, or Raiding, I sometimes daydream about what a stud I'd be if I could go back to my earlier days, but with my current tools. But heck, who wants to win all the time? 

    Because I did start a long time ago, I do understand what is going on in terms of curing - and no way would I be quick enough to do it all all the time. Heck, even when I had auto sip, Serendipity would often kick my ass with her simple aliases (she never even used a client, just logged on via the website).

    I consider myself half a step up from fodder, but not much more than that.

    I like it when I get targeted for death because it suggests to me that I must be doing something useful. (Don't burst my bubble, please!)

    Now if I could only write myself a proficient "run awaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay" combo and I might catch @Anaidiana!

    I don't like that systems seem to be required to make any headway, but there are many free curing systems out there for the most popular clients. So long as they are not needed to fulfill a House or City requirement, that they exist should not be an issue. There were always those who could script more efficient aliases and triggers. I was, for a very short time, one of those (using it for more fluffy things however), now I'm not. I'm okay with that.

    I like the idea of a built-out Wiki.  There are many unofficial combat clans around, not sure how an official one would be much different, especially if there was no direct admin support.


    - To love another person is to see the face of G/d
    - Let me get my hat and my knife
    - It's your apple, take a bite
    - Don't dream it ... be it


    Anaidiana
  • LiancaLianca Fire and SpiceMember Posts: 428
    edited March 2013
    With the new expansion of AB, adding all the skills, syntaxes and descriptions to the wiki pages as a start shouldn't be an issue. Perhaps these can each then be expanded on with extra information, such as mana/karma/endurance/devotion/essence costs, draining rates, things to watch out for. Just as a place to get things started.
    The sweltering heat of the forge spills out across the land as the rumbling voice of Phaestus booms, "I want you to know, the Garden reaction to that one is: What?"
    The voice of Melantha, Goddess of the Seasons, echoes amid the rustle of leaves, "That's the censored version."
    Kyrra
  • YueYue Member Posts: 290 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Arador said:
    (#1) You find Achaea, make a newbie, join a House, meet another newbie and think "Cool someone I can learn with" only to realise that said newbie is actually an alt of someone who sits working out venomlock strategies while you are still wondering where you can get venoms and how you get them on your fists when you punch people.

     (#2) There are many people willing to teach but they also tire at explaining the very basics over and over again.

    (#3)  People would be willing to read real information (Not just AB scrolls) if it was available. The Wiki would be great for this. I would rather share all my combat knowledge than sit with the same few people I can fight because I am too scared of sharing my tricks. Explain Achaean combat in detail, break it down into basics like Equipment, Systems and Classes. Each class being two parts. One, how to fight as one of them, and two, how to defend against them. Break it down skill by skill, afflictions lines, effects and timings everything.
    #1 - You are a very good writer.

    #2- I forgot what I was going to say about (#2).

    #3- I think a detailed, out-of-character description of combat and game mechanics with objective bias would be extremely helpful to NEWBIES. Some examples of topics to break down:

    -the HELP feature
    --The Command Parser (LOOK|L, PUT 337 SOVEREIGNS IN BACKPACK123456|PUT MONEY IN PACK, etc. - basically, shorthand)
    -Balances (the concept)
    -Affliction and Hindering (the concept)
    -Clients and how they help (aliases especially)
    -CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT - WHAT IS MY ROLE/WHAT IS MY PURPOSE
       **** A lot of typical newbie interaction can be avoided (by the newbie) by having a strong notion of the character they are playing. It gives you something to fall back on. Fake it until you make it. :)

    PrytheArador
  • AerekAerek East Tennessee, USAMember Posts: 1,840 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited March 2013
    Vadimuses said:
    In my opinion, mid tier is someone with a system, but not much clue what are they doing defensively and focus on the their offensive must of the time in 1v1's. In group combat, they generally don't know what is going on enough to be relied upon and are just there for the group DPS/hindering.

    The thing is, that without a system, those people wouldn't be there, and some wouldn't ever get past the midbie stage either.

    ...

    If I raised the curve for most people from "never entering combat because they don't have a chance" to them entering combat and now "midbies can't wipe the floor with other midbies so easily", I think it's a better thing. I got more people involved into combat, there's a bigger pool available (apparently not big enough), there's more room and that means a bigger diversity of opponents and more people who have that chance to get interested, sit down and learn things, and break out into the top-tier. People still win and lose duels, rampages aren't an eternal crawl and the PK world is doing okay, so I don't think I broke anything. Well, broken skills and artefacts are kind of messing it up, but there's nothing I can do to help there.
    I think this is true for "high" tier. I certainly wouldn't be able to compete in the brackets that I want to without your help, but I already had a working knowledge of most mechanics before I ever made the big jump to Svo, I just needed help with the scripting side of defense. I consider anyone who, for lack of skills or knowledge, cannot score kills with some manner of consistency to be "low tier". When they start to get the hang of their skills, and start getting kills accordingly, they enter the mid tier.

    So, I suppose I consider your "mid tier" to be my "low tier", because they haven't yet figured out how to be effective in combat, regardless of their curing ability. Either way, I think getting stuck in that tier is worse than being in the "old" mid tier. Getting destroyed by some mid tiers but killing some others because of the variance in ability was still fun. By contrast, never dying but never winning because you don't have the knowledge to overcome standardized curing is boring and frustrating, and it's very easy to get stuck there for a long time, unless you have someone willing to explain the complex mechanics that many classes have to use to find success.

    I'm not trying to advocate against modern systems, (I'd be hypocritical if I was) I'm just saying that their advent has had the single biggest impact on the state of the game in a very long time, and one of the most relevant aspects of that impact has been on the mid tier, because that's where people get "stuck" for the longest amount of time.

    ---

    Bottom line, I agree that the best "fix" for making combat easier to enter into is more transparency. The AB files should be actual, detailed, explanations of what a skill does and how it works. The tradition of being coy and letting the players figure out the secrets and details of the game has made it interesting, mysterious, and spotlighted the great combat minds of the times, but it limits the combat scene to the elite players who are willing to spend hours researching and testing how their abilities work. If you're actually trying to bring more people into the scene, dropping that mystique for a more informative approach is the best way to start.


    -- Grounded in but one perspective, what we perceive is an exaggeration of the truth.
    NimKyrraAntonius
  • FrohFroh Member Posts: 53 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Vadimuses said:
    I find this line of reasoning to be inherently flawed - "the effect should not have been put in place because of this cause it did". Well, no, it should have been, and the causes that came out from that are to be dealt with. Progress, in this case getting more people into combat, shouldn't be slowed down (the right word here is retarded but how many mature people know what it actually means?) because at some point down the line more people will be present in combat but will require more effort to beat.
    ...
    I will say it here, I can't take any "systems are bad" arguments seriously - I've yet to see a single realistic reason provided for them. I have seen them help a lot of people, seen better systems provide advantage to people, and seen people thanking me for giving them a chance (that's not to stroke my ego - I don't care. That's the fact that it is helping the combat scene). The logic presented otherwise seems elitist, non-sensical and unreasonable if you follow through to its logical conclusion.

    While I do agree with you, I thought I'd cite the G R R Martin story that might illustrate the opposing viewpoint:

    "Tuf Voyaging", ch 5 "A Beast for Norn"

    http://www.freebook4u.org/fantasticfiction/Tuf_Voyaging/18189.html

    That would be one possible long term outcome depending on what the players, admins, and tool authors do along the way.

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