If you were a newbie combatant....

Sarapis

What are the things you would find most confusing/challenging/frustrating about combat without a system?

Cooper

Everything.

The speed, the number of afflictions, the number of abilities you don't have access to that you need in order to kill someone, the number of credits you have to drop into the game in order to be a fighter, houses giving people poor suggestions on what skills to focus on, the newbie channel being a lack of help for combat (most people that are Guides aren't combatants), people being unwilling to teach true noobs combat because it's frustrating for them to qq the next day and never show up again, the amount of gold you have to spend on supplies/arena spars to become good.

Oh, and it isn't optional to have a system anymore. If you want to fight, you get a system. If you don't, you are automatically behind everyone else, because they do have a system.

Edit: Adding that coding is pretty much a requirement to play Achaea now. Some of us can't do anything beyond the basic #trigger {Sarapis tells you, "You are awesome."} {tell Sarapis Yes, I know} {ThingsThatWillHappen), or just plain don't want to learn how to code complex systems to play a game.

Garao

Being able to keep up with the people that do automate their curing allowing them to attack as quickly as they possibly can, having to learn every single affliction and its corresponding cure and instantly knowing this information, and then initially dying a lot very quickly.

Just everything that Cooper said though, basically. Would be great if a server-side curing system was released and the sale of systems was prohibited.

Achilles

1. Finding a user-friendly client

2. How to create alias/macros/triggers in said client

3. Accumulating all the affliction lines

4. Combat spam

5. Paying for minimum skills needed to experience some success in combat (bi trans for some classes, even tri-trans for some, plus survival/weaponry/vision etc mix)

Dunn

Spam. #1 killer of newbies.

Chryenth

Curing. By a mile, curing.

Mishgul

keeping up with the amount of afflictions would be near impossible, unless retardation was involved, and even then keeping temperament in retardation isn't easy.

Jacen

The question confuses me a bit. Are you asking what is complicated about Achaean combat not considering curing systems? Or what's complicated about combat if we weren't allowed to use publicly available systems? Or what's complicated about combat if we weren't allowed to have systems at all? 

If systems weren't allowed, there'd be no combat in Achaea. Imagine knight vs blademaster. If the knight strikes first, the blademaster has to sip health, eat moss, and cure two venom afflictions. That's four actions required in a 1.6-2.5 second period. Even given aliases, you'd never keep up with the afflictions.

Ugh, I remember manually deffing when I was trying to make my own system when I first started Achaea. The HORRER.

Mishgul

there was a time when systems weren't allowed, at least not public ones. I wouldn't say combat was any less fun though, it was equally challenging in different ways and the fights were a lot shorter.

Garao

No, there'd be no posers left in combat in achaea. This is taking trolling too far, sorry Jacen. Achaea combat would not be worse off if that scenario was made a reality. There did used to be a time when people did not use systems, and as mish said, it was just -different-. Not any less fun. 

It's not like a person who plays achaea for a few hours everyday can't make an automatic sipper over the course of two weeks. Hell, it's not like people can't release manuals on how to do the small things like that, and I'm sure they would if such a thing happened!

Achilles

manual combat was a lot of fun back in the day, RIP telnet

For the most part 1v1 is narrowed down to a few optimized kill strategies from the mid-upper tiers these days.

Cooper

People have always used systems, though. They have just gotten incredibly complex.

A 'system' back in the day was an alias for eating each herb (pill), applying each salve, smoking and lighting your pipes, maybe a few highlights or a wake or writhe trigger, etc.

Now it's something that handles all of your curing.

Achilles

@Cooper - Actually a client like Zmud actually cost money back then, half the people were on telnet and AOL dial up.  

It has evolved from a high pressure typing contest (or just master using ! x100) into a whole new beast

Velyse

Sarapis said:

What are the things you would find most confusing/challenging/frustrating about combat without a system?

I wasn't a combatant, but I manualed my way to 80 as a priest and took my curing test against Iocun. The most difficult parts are A) recognizing afflictions, prioritizing them, and C) doing this quickly while still maintaining an offense. The fact is that if your system immediately reads a line and applies the best cure according to its logic, it is a huge boon defensively and offensively. It essentially solves the three problems I mentioned above. 

Manualing everything also means that all your actions (sipping, applying, mossing, herbing, smoking, lighting, etc.) are effectively on the same "balance," and that's your typing speed. This means that someone who doesn't have a system will have to make decisions that other players don't have to, such as deciding whether to attack or whether to sip or whether to eat an herb. They'll also be doing it slower, too, because people can't process information (especially through combat scroll) as fast as a computer.

Jules

Someone on Newbie channel recently asked how he could stand up better/faster when bashing.  He was in my house so I asked him if he'd got any help a few minutes later.  He hadn't, so we illegally used a party channel so I could walk him through setting up a basic trigger on the Achaea site's html client (I use Mudlet, btw).  Once it was working for him, I mentioned systems to him and told him to look around the forums if he was interested in one later, and that some people eventually learn to build their own.  Without a system, standing up is hard for a newbie.  

Sarapis

Jacen said:

The question confuses me a bit. Are you asking what is complicated about Achaean combat not considering curing systems? Or what's complicated about combat if we weren't allowed to use publicly available systems? Or what's complicated about combat if we weren't allowed to have systems at all? 

If systems weren't allowed, there'd be no combat in Achaea. Imagine knight vs blademaster. If the knight strikes first, the blademaster has to sip health, eat moss, and cure two venom afflictions. That's four actions required in a 1.6-2.5 second period. Even given aliases, you'd never keep up with the afflictions.

Ugh, I remember manually deffing when I was trying to make my own system when I first started Achaea. The HORRER.

I used to fight on Achaea with no systems and could keep up with the curing. It was a long time ago, granted, but that manual reaction speed was supposed to be some of the skill in combat. Triggers have ruined that but there is no conceivable way to ban them or even detect them being used in combat without going to great lengths to ensure that the only client that is possible to be used is a client that we control, and take measures well beyond our capacity to detect when people have modified that client, etc. 

We'll probably end up adding triggering packages server-side to try and make the ramp less harsh for newbies. 

Garao

It's pretty easy to make triggers to get you to auto stand when proned or waking or on bal/eq, apply mass/caloric/mending, sip health/mana, writhe when appropriate and light/smoke pipes, allowing you to maintain an offence and cure herbs and resto salves manually, among a few other things. I wouldn't get caught up too much on only either having systems as they are today or absolutely no auto-curing at all. Just because there are no immediately available systems to purchase that instantly do everything for you, it doesn't mean you can't develop your own efficient way of dealing with curing afflictions.

Eld

Achilles said:

@Cooper - Actually a client like Zmud actually cost money back then, half the people were on telnet and AOL dial up.  

It has evolved from a high pressure typing contest (or just master using ! x100) into a whole new beast

Really? Zmud was shareware when I first started mudding ~15-20 years ago.

Daslin

Wait. @Sarapis are you saying you did combat as Sarapis, or a mortal? Cause if Sarapis shows up on teh battlefield, Eff that, I'm out.

Sarapis

Haha, as a mortal. Sarapis doesn't need to use skills. He has zap, shrub, and delete character.

Achilles

Eld said:

Achilles said:

@Cooper - Actually a client like Zmud actually cost money back then, half the people were on telnet and AOL dial up.  

It has evolved from a high pressure typing contest (or just master using ! x100) into a whole new beast

Really? Zmud was shareware when I first started mudding ~15-20 years ago.

If I remember correctly you got like 30 free uses (some people didnt turn off their computer/close client as a result) before having to buy a full license otherwise it cost $20-25.  

Aktillum

Everything Cooper said. +1. Summed up everything.

Manual-style is dead. Zmud is ancient. Modern latency has made combat rely on reacting in milliseconds. I feel gimpy with a 0.168 latency when I'm trying to stick aeon, or something.

Eld

Achilles said:

Eld said:

Achilles said:

@Cooper - Actually a client like Zmud actually cost money back then, half the people were on telnet and AOL dial up.  

It has evolved from a high pressure typing contest (or just master using ! x100) into a whole new beast

Really? Zmud was shareware when I first started mudding ~15-20 years ago.

If I remember correctly you got like 30 free uses (some people didnt turn off their computer/close client as a result) before having to buy a full license otherwise it cost $20-25.  

Hm, that might be right. I know I used it more than that, but that may have been by repeatedly redownloading it.

Vadimuses

Combat mechanics are biggest. 2+ affs per second from an serpent (dstab+snake) or an apostate (evileye+hunt/ents) - good luck keeping up, while trying to attack yourself, while knowing what strategy the opponent is going for you, while prioritizing your curing! Want to help yourself out by making some simple triggers as Garao said? As soon as you do that, illusions will be an endless barrage that'll keep owning you.

For group combat, spam is a giant issue for certain.

PS. I'd like to see people making this game try playing it again - so they know what issues people are actually facing today. Things changed from a decade ago.

Garao

Yeah but den like people might think for themself and work out why dey getting owned by illusions and den work out how to get around dat init.

or they could just rely on you for the rest of their combat life course

Vadimuses

Ahh, the angry snipes because someone bested you. I'll just throw it out there that I don't advocate for getting a system and doing nothing with it - I'm all for people improving past it and raising themselves up. I'm giving them a stepping stone.

Garao

Haha!

Aktillum

I used to get mad at SVO till I realized you have to RTFM and configure a whole lot of stuff out of the box if you don't want to get pwned. I just scratched the custom prios surface a few weeks ago.

Xer

I started making my own system when I first started out, and I got to about the point where I had a semi-usable system on my own fairly quickly, with respect to venomable afflictions (At least, I think it passed basic functionality with Garao haha), but I had trouble developing how I wanted to work out priorities on the fly automatically (by which I mean the system chooses priorities for you "optimally" depending on the "situation"). Then I saw Omni 3.0 come out - Thanks Carmain! - and it saved me the rest of the hassle of finding ALL THE OTHER AFFLICTION LINES. God, I didn't realise how many they were. Omni 3.0 is quite nice to someone with a passing interest in CS and decided to take some courses in it at university - I had enough knowledge and knowhow to work out some personal scripts, and modify Omni extensively to add to my offense and make it easier for me to use/change defensively midcombat. 

If I didn't know how to code at all... I probably wouldn't be able to do some of the more advanced scripts I have yet, but I think I would have been able to modify Omni - it just would have taken a fair bit longer to read through the code and change things here and there. I wasn't around for manual combat, so I can't say anything on that front, but I can't really say I can imagine it at this stage. 

Averi

@Garao

I think the problem with making stuff yourself is that one has to assume they have background knowledge in computers. As someone who once thought computers were magic captured in a box, i know that it isn't that simple. Sometimes I recommend mudlet to people and then try to explain how to make things and they are like o.O and then I remember what I was like when I first started. The only difference is I had enough of a background to be able to read some basic code and enough people helping me in ways so that I can understand it, you included. Combat would be a nightmare to people who can't read code. And it's also harder for them to get help because they don't know anyone in the game. Of course, there are a bunch of awesome people who help but being a newbie is scary. 

Trevize

@Sarapis: A newbie combatant finds frustration in steps.

1) Dying before you know what happened.

2) Catching on to afflictions, but not curing them in time, or not being able to survive the pure damage.

3) Surviving long enough to do something, but struggling to make even a dent in your opponent.

If you're looking for ways to improve this, a few things may help. Public explanation on how afflictions work together, and how locks works. HELP HEALS, HELP CURELIST, and HELP CURES are a good start, but afflictions are typically what overwhelms newbies - both the giving, and the taking, of them. Those might help with 2&3.

The trigger packages wouldn't be a bad idea. Something simple, but still able to give them time to do -something-  and see more of combat than immediate death. That might help with 1&2.